Child Support Order might be fraudulent

[lvhunter]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

A few years back, while I was out of town working, my wife filed for Food Stamps. I didn't know this at the time. After her filing for Assistance, she received 2 large settlements for Disability. She went through those funds quickly. Nine months later, I received a notice to appear in court. When I got there, I was handed a Financial Affidavit to fill out that was worder "For Establishment of or Modification of Existing Order". I questioned this several times that day and the next day we were in court, but I was still ordered to pay child support. And to really top it off, they went back 24 months retroactive. This even though we had been married for 8 yrs at that time, and I had paid all bills for the household such as mortgage (her house), utilities, food, insurances, and her doctor and pharmaceutical bills for her accident that caused the disability.
Recently, I was searching for an attorney to represent me in a divorce. One of the attornies had served (former) as a family law magistrate for a neighboring county. When I had told him of this, he told me that it was fraud that it should not have even happened because we were married and living together.
I want to know if there is anything I can do to end this case. Whether it is something that will ring the magistrate's ear or make someone back up and take notice to this wrong doing.
I appreciate any help someone can shine on this one or the other.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

A few years back, while I was out of town working, my wife filed for Food Stamps. I didn't know this at the time. After her filing for Assistance, she received 2 large settlements for Disability. She went through those funds quickly. Nine months later, I received a notice to appear in court. When I got there, I was handed a Financial Affidavit to fill out that was worder "For Establishment of or Modification of Existing Order". I questioned this several times that day and the next day we were in court, but I was still ordered to pay child support. And to really top it off, they went back 24 months retroactive. This even though we had been married for 8 yrs at that time, and I had paid all bills for the household such as mortgage (her house), utilities, food, insurances, and her doctor and pharmaceutical bills for her accident that caused the disability.
Recently, I was searching for an attorney to represent me in a divorce. One of the attornies had served (former) as a family law magistrate for a neighboring county. When I had told him of this, he told me that it was fraud that it should not have even happened because we were married and living together.
I want to know if there is anything I can do to end this case. Whether it is something that will ring the magistrate's ear or make someone back up and take notice to this wrong doing.
I appreciate any help someone can shine on this one or the other.

It doesn't sound like you were living together at the time. If you were working out of town you were not really living together. In any case, the time to dispute the child support order was when it was made. There is no point in disputing it now, as you intend to divorce. I also question why your wife filed for food stamps if you were paying all of the bills and providing plenty of money for food?

You really do have to be careful when attempting to assert that any kind of fraud happened, because you could be considered as complicit.

 

[Silverplum]

It doesn't sound like you were living together at the time. If you were working out of town you were not really living together. In any case, the time to dispute the child support order was when it was made. There is no point in disputing it now, as you intend to divorce. I also question why your wife filed for food stamps if you were paying all of the bills and providing plenty of money for food?

You really do have to be careful when attempting to assert that any kind of fraud happened, because you could be considered as complicit.

I disagree. You know how a person's address is determined. This guy was away for work, like military. He didn't change his address.

 

[LdiJ]

I disagree. You know how a person's address is determined. This guy was away for work, like military. He didn't change his address.

That is a valid point, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they were "together", for the purposes of things like food stamps. We all know that people are often separated for years prior to actually divorcing. My question is why would she have even bothered to apply for food stamps if he was fully supporting the household?

The main issue that I was cautioning the OP about is that if he benefitted in any way from the state aid, then he could be seen as complicit, therefore its a bit dangerous to attempt to assert fraud at this point. Had he done it when he was first put on child support, then it would have been far less risky for him. Since he is considering asserting it now, when they are in the midst of divorcing, its could look bad for him.

 

[CJane]

When applying for food stamps, you're supposed to list any people currently in the household preparing and eating meals. Dad was not doing those things.

 

[single317dad]

It seems that OP's wife lied to the welfare agency. It also seems she may have collected more than just food stamps. Usually for a state to pursue establishment of a support order to receive welfare, there's TANF involved (my ex-wife did this while we were still married and living together). That's a requirement of TANF. I nearly had a support order against me for a child I was raising by myself until I got it stopped just in time.

Unfortunately, there's so much fraud in the system and it's so rarely pursued that OP will just look vindictive if he claims fraud during divorce proceedings. I wouldn't expect a whole lot to come of the wife's welfare fraud. States (like OP's home of FL) are putting more funding and effort into publicly popular but stupid and ineffective programs like drug testing recipients than pursuing actual fraud.

 

[LdiJ]

It seems that OP's wife lied to the welfare agency. It also seems she may have collected more than just food stamps. Usually for a state to pursue establishment of a support order to receive welfare, there's TANF involved (my ex-wife did this while we were still married and living together). That's a requirement of TANF. I nearly had a support order against me for a child I was raising by myself until I got it stopped just in time.

Unfortunately, there's so much fraud in the system and it's so rarely pursued that OP will just look vindictive if he claims fraud during divorce proceedings. I wouldn't expect a whole lot to come of the wife's welfare fraud. States (like OP's home of FL) are putting more funding and effort into publicly popular but stupid and ineffective programs like drug testing recipients than pursuing actual fraud.

TANF is much more difficult to get than food stamps.

 

[single317dad]

TANF is much more difficult to get than food stamps.

Yet still fraudulently attainable while the applicant's spouse is living in the same home, as I can personally attest.

They went so far as to set up a support collection account in the state repository, so that once I started paying support (I was never ordered to), that money would be recovered. When I got a support order (she has never paid), it was attached to that same account, so now in the system it looks like we both owe each other. I imagine if she ever does pay anything it will go to repay the TANF she collected for two years (state max) while she didn't even have any children under her care, and in fact was incarcerated for some of that time. Fraud dept. didn't care at all.

Not saying this is definitely what has happened in OP's case; just cluing him in on what he can expect if it has.

 

[Pinkie39]

Yet still fraudulently attainable while the applicant's spouse is living in the same home, as I can personally attest.

They went so far as to set up a support collection account in the state repository, so that once I started paying support (I was never ordered to), that money would be recovered. When I got a support order (she has never paid), it was attached to that same account, so now in the system it looks like we both owe each other. I imagine if she ever does pay anything it will go to repay the TANF she collected for two years (state max) while she didn't even have any children under her care, and in fact was incarcerated for some of that time. Fraud dept. didn't care at all.

Not saying this is definitely what has happened in OP's case; just cluing him in on what he can expect if it has.

I work as a county welfare caseworker.

We have an investigations department that pursues suspected cases of fraud. We do have clients who have been found guilty of fraud and required to pay back benefits they received fraudulently. It's not that these counties or states don't care about fraud. They just don't have the resources to pursue every possible incident of fraud.

They also have to weed through false allegations of fraud. The head of the investigations department has said that they get people making false fraud allegations against ex boyfriends/girlfriends, estranged family members etc, to get back at them. That takes time away from investigating real cases of fraud.

It's also not at all unheard of for someone to claim to be separated from a spouse to fraudulently obtain benefits.

As for why someone would do that, well, because they can. Because of greed. Because of a sense of entitlement. Because they want something for free. Because they like the thrill of pulling one over on someone. Kind of like a wealthy person shoplifting items that they can easily afford to buy. They like the idea of getting away with something.

 

[single317dad]

I work as a county welfare caseworker.

We have an investigations department that pursues suspected cases of fraud. We do have clients who have been found guilty of fraud and required to pay back benefits they received fraudulently. It's not that these counties or states don't care about fraud. They just don't have the resources to pursue every possible incident of fraud.

They also have to weed through false allegations of fraud. The head of the investigations department has said that they get people making false fraud allegations against ex boyfriends/girlfriends, estranged family members etc, to get back at them. That takes time away from investigating real cases of fraud.

It's also not at all unheard of for someone to claim to be separated from a spouse to fraudulently obtain benefits.

As for why someone would do that, well, because they can. Because of greed. Because of a sense of entitlement. Because they want something for free. Because they like the thrill of pulling one over on someone. Kind of like a wealthy person shoplifting items that they can easily afford to buy. They like the idea of getting away with something.

I totally get that. I understand that there are false allegations of fraud. I understand that fraud investigators (and many other public servants) are overwhelmed. It's disheartening to see that one of the few places where costs could to some extent be recovered, our government isn't focusing on that enough, and instead implements drug testing that costs more money.

 

[Pinkie39]

I totally get that. I understand that there are false allegations of fraud. I understand that fraud investigators (and many other public servants) are overwhelmed. It's disheartening to see that one of the few places where costs could to some extent be recovered, our government isn't focusing on that enough, and instead implements drug testing that costs more money.

Overwhelmed is absolutely the case. I have a caseload of around 600 people and that's growing every day. At one point, when the department I'm in was short staffed, before I worked there, the caseloads were around 1,200 each.

I do get what you're saying though, about the state missing out on a better opportunity to weed out fraud.

 

[LdiJ]

Overwhelmed is absolutely the case. I have a caseload of around 600 people and that's growing every day. At one point, when the department I'm in was short staffed, before I worked there, the caseloads were around 1,200 each.

I do get what you're saying though, about the state missing out on a better opportunity to weed out fraud.

Yet, at the same time, some people who legitimately qualify for benefits are denied, often for reasons that make no sense. The system is flawed but the flaws work both ways. I personally know of several cases of people who got the full works, TANF, food stamps, Medicaid and Section 8 who should not have received benefits at all, and an equal number of people who absolutely qualified for all of that who got nothing.

And the expanded Medicaid (under Obamacare) for low income families...that has been an absolute failure as far as I can see.

I don't mean to offend you, at all Pinkie, but I think that the constraints that you have to operate under make it nearly impossible for you to administer the plans as they are intended. How can you possibly handle 600 cases? You have to rely on the computer handling most of those, and how much time do you honestly have to timely handle the cases the computer identifies as a problem?

I sincerely admire what you do...and sincerely feel sorry for the load that you carry. You get blamed for the failure of a completely flawed system.

 

[single317dad]

And the expanded Medicaid (under Obamacare) for low income families...that has been an absolute failure as far as I can see.

Since our state leaders, in their eternal wisdom, determined to opt out of that expansion, there's now a huge donut in Indiana between those who qualify for Medicaid and HIP and those who can afford private insurance. The tax implications, as I'm sure you're aware, will be devastating for some of those people.

 

[Pinkie39]

Yet, at the same time, some people who legitimately qualify for benefits are denied, often for reasons that make no sense. The system is flawed but the flaws work both ways. I personally know of several cases of people who got the full works, TANF, food stamps, Medicaid and Section 8 who should not have received benefits at all, and an equal number of people who absolutely qualified for all of that who got nothing.

And the expanded Medicaid (under Obamacare) for low income families...that has been an absolute failure as far as I can see.

I don't mean to offend you, at all Pinkie, but I think that the constraints that you have to operate under make it nearly impossible for you to administer the plans as they are intended. How can you possibly handle 600 cases? You have to rely on the computer handling most of those, and how much time do you honestly have to timely handle the cases the computer identifies as a problem?

I sincerely admire what you do...and sincerely feel sorry for the load that you carry. You get blamed for the failure of a completely flawed system.

We just do the best we can with the time we have. So yes, some fraudulent cases get overlooked. The most common thing we see is people working, who don't report that income. I also believe there's many "single" parents who have a boyfriend/girlfriend living with them and contributing financially to the household, but they don't report it.

I really do believe there's a financial disincentive for many low income people to get married. If they get married to someone working, with their combined incomes, they'll possibly lose their food stamps or have them cut, lose their child care vouchers, WIC, subsidized housing, huge tax refunds, etc, maybe even their Medicaid.

Why bother to get married when they can just live together, not report it, and continue getting all their benefits?

A lot of people who qualify for public assistance simply won't apply, because of pride or because they don't realize they might qualify. And many people apply but don't follow through. They don't complete an interview (required for food stamps) or don't submit the required documentation requested by the caseworker.

I don't see the Medicaid expansion as a failure though. A lot of people simply had no medical insurance or had to make do with inadequate insurance before the expansion. A few years ago, I got laid off and had to take a low paying temp job with no benefits, to make ends meet. My husband then got laid off while I was working at the temp job. We lost our medical insurance. We were able to get Medicaid for our kids, but not for ourselves, and went without insurance for about 9 months.

My husband is diabetic and it was terrible on him health wise. He is still suffering from a worsening of his diabetes due to lack of medical care while we had no insurance. Had Medicaid been expanded back then, we wouldn't have had to go uninsured.