NJ - Do we even need a mediator?

[pb07142012]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NJ

My sons father and I have a 15 month old son. We are very civil and I foresee a great coparent/friendship in the future. We have agreed on child support and child custody but have one issue.

My sons father, we will call him Joe, wants our agreement to be documented with the courts. He is a very cautious guy who loves his son very much so I get why he wants it done and I do not have a problem with that. However, he works for his father and gets paid 40% of his income under the table. If you work out the support using the NJ guidelines, it's a $61/week difference based on what he reports he makes and what he actually makes.

He also wants to pay an attorney to do the paperwork for us. He does not feel a court appointed mediator or us doing the paperwork ourselves will cover everything a good paid attorney/mediator would.

So my question is, do we really even need a good paid attorney/mediator? Is there not some documentation out there that tells us everything to include in the agreement? If not, because we already agree, does the paid attorney even need to know our salaries? Can we just tell him/her what we agreed upon in regards to support and custody but need help covering things we might not be aware should be included?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NJ

My sons father and I have a 15 month old son. We are very civil and I foresee a great coparent/friendship in the future. We have agreed on child support and child custody but have one issue.

My sons father, we will call him Joe, wants our agreement to be documented with the courts. He is a very cautious guy who loves his son very much so I get why he wants it done and I do not have a problem with that. However, he works for his father and gets paid 40% of his income under the table. If you work out the support using the NJ guidelines, it's a $61/week difference based on what he reports he makes and what he actually makes.

He also wants to pay an attorney to do the paperwork for us. He does not feel a court appointed mediator or us doing the paperwork ourselves will cover everything a good paid attorney/mediator would.

So my question is, do we really even need a good paid attorney/mediator? Is there not some documentation out there that tells us everything to include in the agreement? If not, because we already agree, does the paid attorney even need to know our salaries? Can we just tell him/her what we agreed upon in regards to support and custody but need help covering things we might not be aware should be included?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

A) Your agreement should be filed with the courts.
B) You should have an attorney prepare the proper paperwork so it can be filed in order to avoid any missing information.
Questions to consider: Who is going to do transportation? Can other people besides the parents drive the child? Where is the child going to go to school? Who is going to claim the child as a dependent on taxes? How are holidays going to be split? How does vacation work -- when/how much/how often? What type of notice is necessary for vacation? What happens if you start doing someone else? IF he does? What if either or both of you move? What if the child is sick? What is defined as sickness? How are doctor's/counseling/school decisions made? What does the law state on all of this? What does child support include? Does it include daycare expenses? Who is going to provide daycare -- do you each choose your own or share the same one? Who pays?
C) Court orders protect everyone and they are a baseline. When things are going well, they are not dictatorial. When they are not going well, they are definitely necessary.

 

[pb07142012]

Thanks for the advice! We actually have discussed and agreed upon most of your considerations. A few follow up questions:

1. If we go with an attorney, do we HAVE to state income? Since we have agreed on an amount, is it necessary? Is it something the judge would want or need to see?

2. What would your advice be on his reported wages vs actual wages? I've been told family court is not in the business of reporting people to the IRS. Is this true?

3. If we have to report wages, what is your opinion on me signing off on something that does not accurately define his true income?

 

[Ohiogal]

Thanks for the advice! We actually have discussed and agreed upon most of your considerations. A few follow up questions:

1. If we go with an attorney, do we HAVE to state income? Since we have agreed on an amount, is it necessary? Is it something the judge would want or need to see?

2. What would your advice be on his reported wages vs actual wages? I've been told family court is not in the business of reporting people to the IRS. Is this true?

3. If we have to report wages, what is your opinion on me signing off on something that does not accurately define his true income?

1) A child support worksheet MIGHT have to be submitted which would require income. So it is definitely a possibility.
2) My advice would be that he shouldn't break the law.
3) My advice would be that you shouldn't break the law.

But hey, if you guys want to continue to break the law, carry on.

 

[stealth2]

We were required, in NJ, to provide income disclosures for CS calculation.

 

[pb07142012]

We were required, in NJ, to provide income disclosures for CS calculation.

If we submit our own agreement, without using an attorney, are we still required to submit our w2's?

 

[Ohiogal]

If we submit our own agreement, without using an attorney, are we still required to submit our w2's?

Most likely yes. It is a requirement per Stealth. You have to follow the law.

 

[pb07142012]

1) A child support worksheet MIGHT have to be submitted which would require income. So it is definitely a possibility.
2) My advice would be that he shouldn't break the law.
3) My advice would be that you shouldn't break the law.

But hey, if you guys want to continue to break the law, carry on.

I have no control over how he gets paid. However, I refuse to get screwed over because of him. I am doing my best to work this out so it's win win for everyone which is why I asked if we could submit an agreement without salary information included.

The whole point of this post is because I do NOT want to break the law. Your remark was a poor attempt at sarcasm. Carry on.

 

[Ohiogal]

I have no control over how he gets paid. However, I refuse to get screwed over because of him. I am doing my best to work this out so it's win win for everyone which is why I asked if we could submit an agreement without salary information included.

The whole point of this post is because I do NOT want to break the law. Your remark was a poor attempt at sarcasm. Carry on.

Not one word of my post was sarcastic. You seem to be trying to find a way to enable him to hide his income. That is helping him break the law -- which is YOU breaking the law. My attempt at pointing that out to you apparently failed but it was not at all sarcastic. You are asking to sign documentation which you know to be false -- THAT is breaking the law. When you sign court documents which you KNOW are incorrect and false and based on fraudulent figures? That is breaking the law. Your problem is you refuse to understand THAT point. If you don't want to break the law, you go through the courts and you do things according to the law. You force child support to a hearing INSTEAD of signing fraudulent documents.

If you don't want to do that, carry on with breaking the law. No problem. And absolutely NO SARCASM. Deal with it.

 

[commentator]

Quote: "We are very civil and I foresee a great coparent/friendship in the future. We have agreed on child support and child custody.'

I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but oh how things can change! I have seen many people who believed this statement to be true at one point, and then turned out to be completely disillusioned at some later point. My best advice to you as a mediation professional is that you make sure you do this perfectly legally, completely honestly and with expert help NOW, so that later, if he marries a girl who can't stand you, or stops paying what he has agreed to pay, or starts mistreating your child or any one of a thousand variables that could and would mess up your rosy vision of the future, you will have some legal groundwork to stand on and will not have to start from scratch. Go on and answer all the questions posed by someone else here about visitation, weekends, holidays, who gives rides, etc. It's like "trust but verify."

Everyone hopes you will continue to have what you forsee, the great co-parenting relationship and all. It will be really the best for your child if this happens.

It's harder, believe me, when there's no legal foundation for your agreements. What if his under the table business suddenly takes off and he starts making forty times as much and he quits his day job? And you've agreed to let him under-report it in the first place. How easy is that going to make it when you have to take him to court and ask for more of something you agreed to pretend wasn't even there?

 

[LdiJ]

Not one word of my post was sarcastic. You seem to be trying to find a way to enable him to hide his income. That is helping him break the law -- which is YOU breaking the law. My attempt at pointing that out to you apparently failed but it was not at all sarcastic. You are asking to sign documentation which you know to be false -- THAT is breaking the law. When you sign court documents which you KNOW are incorrect and false and based on fraudulent figures? That is breaking the law. Your problem is you refuse to understand THAT point. If you don't want to break the law, you go through the courts and you do things according to the law. You force child support to a hearing INSTEAD of signing fraudulent documents.

If you don't want to do that, carry on with breaking the law. No problem. And absolutely NO SARCASM. Deal with it.

I am getting the opposite impression. I am getting the impression that she is afraid that if they are required to submit W2s, that all of his income won't get reported for child support purposes. Apparently he has agreed to pay child support on his full income. She is afraid that the courts will calculate less support if they go by W2s.

 

[TheGeekess]

I am getting the opposite impression. I am getting the impression that she is afraid that if they are required to submit W2s, that all of his income won't get reported for child support purposes. Apparently he has agreed to pay child support on his full income. She is afraid that the courts will calculate less support if they go by W2s.

Thanks for the advice! We actually have discussed and agreed upon most of your considerations. A few follow up questions:

1. If we go with an attorney, do we HAVE to state income? Since we have agreed on an amount, is it necessary? Is it something the judge would want or need to see?

2. What would your advice be on his reported wages vs actual wages? I've been told family court is not in the business of reporting people to the IRS. Is this true?

3. If we have to report wages, what is your opinion on me signing off on something that does not accurately define his true income?

Alrighty then.

 

[stealth2]

When we were modifying CS in NJ (originally calculated in NY), the court REQUIRED us to meet with a "mediator" (they called it something different, and I no longer remember what it was), who was a local family court attorney, in an attempt to reach an agreement. Yes, part of that required disclosure of income, via W2s, 1099s, and tax returns. When one of us (aka not I) refused to provide detailed information over several meetings, the "mediator" forwarded our case on to the court for a hearing. After several continuances, due to one of us (aka again not I) refusing to provide the requested info, one of us was threatened with contempt and finally provided said info, the court ruled on the CS amount. One of us (aka yet again not I) was required to pay court costs as well as my legal fees for the additional time required with (a) the "mediator"(*) and (b) hearings. It cost "not I" a heck of a lot more than if he'd just ponied up the info.

But hey - OP can do as she likes.

ETA: (*) The "mediator" was a volunteer, in an attempt to allow folks to come to a resolution w/o tying up the court's time. When "not I" prolonged the time the "mediator" needed to spend with us, the court allowed him to charge his regular fees. Chargeable to "not I".

 

[LdiJ]

When we were modifying CS in NJ (originally calculated in NY), the court REQUIRED us to meet with a "mediator" (they called it something different, and I no longer remember what it was), who was a local family court attorney, in an attempt to reach an agreement. Yes, part of that required disclosure of income, via W2s, 1099s, and tax returns. When one of us (aka not I) refused to provide detailed information over several meetings, the "mediator" forwarded our case on to the court for a hearing. After several continuances, due to one of us (aka again not I) refusing to provide the requested info, one of us was threatened with contempt and finally provided said info, the court ruled on the CS amount. One of us (aka yet again not I) was required to pay court costs as well as my legal fees for the additional time required with (a) the "mediator"(*) and (b) hearings. It cost "not I" a heck of a lot more than if he'd just ponied up the info.

But hey - OP can do as she likes.

ETA: (*) The "mediator" was a volunteer, in an attempt to allow folks to come to a resolution w/o tying up the court's time. When "not I" prolonged the time the "mediator" needed to spend with us, the court allowed him to charge his regular fees. Chargeable to "not I".

Apparently though, these people already have an agreement as to the amount of child support that is to be paid. Would your mediator (or whatever they called him) have still required the detail info had the two of you come to the table with an agreement already in place? Obviously you would be in the best position to have an idea on that.

 

[commentator]

I believe that even if I was mediating a situation where the parties came in with an agreement about exactly how much child support they wanted to pay and be paid, I'd still ask prying questions and request to see income documentation. In fact, particularly when they have it all worked out in advance, I'd be a liitle suspicious.

Many times it happens where sweet trusting baby mammas and soon to be ex-wives are being scammed, threatened, or misled by the baby daddy or whichever of the parties is going to be paying child support. Sometimes it is even with their full consent. As being willing to accept less than minimum wage or an elderly person being willing to give all your money to your adult children does not make it okay, just being willing to agree to something does not make it okay.

Sometimes parties will say, "I don't care how much I get, it doesn't have to be fair, I just want away from him, and I'll agree to it." It is the place of the support system to step in and be the "bad guy" here, to compel Mr.Scary or Mr. Bossy or Mr. Unwilling (or Ms. etc.)
to pay an adequate amount based on his/her real income, not just what the parties may deem okay with them.

I fear, and I hope it's not true, but I fear that this young woman may see another side to her very nice cooperative great co-parenting relationship with the baby's daddy as soon as she stops being compliant to what he insists they do. She needs to think of what will be right for her child financially, not just what he wants and prefers they do about it.