Request for Production of Documents: Ex fails to respond

[WillingToFight]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Oregon

Soon, I'll be ordered to pay child support to my ex, going retro-active to the date he filed a motion to change custody and parenting time. I'm coming to grips with accepting there is nothing I can do to change that and am preparing my finances so that I'll be able to have an appropriate amount of money set aside at the time judgment is ordered.

My question is this: My attorney has now sent two requests to Ex's attorney, requesting Production of Documents. The first request was disputed by ex's attorney, citing there was not enough time provided (less than 30 days) before the parenting time hearing. Okay - fine. That was three months ago now. In October, my attorney sent a second request; this time, stating documents need to be returned in 14 days (since we are well past the original 30 days of the first request.) Still no response.

Some of the documents requested were related to gift income (from parents), gambling winnings/losses and any income earned over the past five years as a "business consultant."

If ex plans on collecting child support from me, what advantage could he possibly have by refusing to provide standard financial information? Without this information, how is anyone supposed to know how to calculate child support?

I'm very confused by these tactics and wonder if there's some kind of advantage in strategy on ex's part.

Thanks for any ideas...

 

[WillingToFight]

Is this a shared income state?

If not, then, even if the court asks for it, they might not compel him to produce the documents, because CS is based on your income only.

If it is a shared income state, I can not see a reason for not producing the documents, because it will only delay him receiving the CS for your children.

It does not make any rational sense to me.

I'm not familiar with all the appropriate terminology but if you're asking whether CS is calculated on both parents' income - yes. Oregon has an online calculator where Parent A is the custodial Parent (in my case - Ex) and Parent B is the non-custodial parent (me). We all know what I make and I have produced all requested documents. Nothing to hide here - I'm a W-2'd employee and file my taxes every year on time. I do not make a lot of money, by any means (think of what an executive assistant makes.)

I contested the custody modification because ex and kids' attorney put forth a parenting plan which offered no scheduled parenting time for me; only "anticipated" twice monthly Sunday dinners. Don't get me started on that one - it is totally jacked and the judge couldn't enforce it. However, regardless of what visitation I'm awarded, I'll be ordered to pay the full amount for child support, since the kids will reside primarily with their father.

Ex has been totally uncooperative throughout the proceedings; including lying in deposition and on the stand. What it comes down to is that the truth really doesn't matter to the court - only what the kids wish, which is to stay at their dad's. As a mom who wants to stay involved with her children, this really stung. However, I have to accept there is nothing I can do now to change that. I can only make the best of the situation.

My attorney is going to suggest a settlement conference, where we can hope to come to some sort of agreement about some of the other details (stepped up visitation, maintaining cell phones for the kids, how health care and transportation will be handled, etc.) I'm also hoping that by attempting to settle prior to the scheduled custody hearing, ex won't ask to be reimbursed for attorney's fees. He'll ask - but I won't agree to it (I have made several attempts to keep this out of court to begin with!) If we can't agree in the settlement conference and it still goes to hearing, I really don't know what the judge would rule with respect to reimbursing ex's attorney's fees.

 

[WillingToFight]

Dad - thanks for your responses.

I'm not fighting for time - CS will be retro-active to August; when ex filed to modify custody. I've sent some money, but not the full amount that will likely be ordered.

I've sold all of my stocks, took out an equity line on my house and now... in a final scramble to come up with MORE money, I've completely refinanced my house and rolled the equity line in so that I'll have one payment (and no credit debt). Some of the cash out I'll receive from the refinance will be set aside to cover the retro CS. If my math is right... I should just clear what I need to come up with.

Ex started these proceedings "by accident" (according to my son) by sharing a story in drug rehab about an "altercation" between my ex and my son. The group leader insisted he report my husband for child abuse, as well as file an order for emergency custody. The emergency custody order was denied by the judge and the altercation dismissed as well. However, once ex had the kids with him, the kids suddenly wanted nothing to do with me and have not been back with me for overnights since April '08. Up until April, we had the kids 50/50 on alternating weeks.

I had a 3rd year lawyer who did his best, but I don't think was prepared for the sleaze ball tactics ex and his attorney pulled. Ex was crafty in his deposition; lying only on topics where he knew the kids would be the only witnesses who could blow his cover. We just couldn't nail him on anything, even though he blatantly lied. Ex also admitted on the stand to exaggerating events and making false statements in his emergency custody order in order to obtain relief from the court.

I know how much I had to pull together to pay my attorney so I can only imagine the bill ex has accumulated for his counsel. In his deposition, my attorney asked him how he managed to pay for everything while he was unemployed. He responded by saying "I have wealthy parents." It was so smug, it just made my skin crawl. Unfortunately, I don't have that benefit; my parents are dead. Had they been alive, I would have been ashamed to drain their retirement income the way ex had no shame in doing to his parents.

I just don't trust ex and his attorney. Sooner or later, he will have to turn in income statements. CS cannot be ordered without it so why all the stalling?? It makes me wonder...

 

[WillingToFight]

Dad - you're busy tonight!

Now that I've resigned to losing custody of my children, I'm trying to protect my own security. I have no issue with paying support, but want it calculated on real numbers.

Ex was laid off in 2005 and went back to school. He chose not to work during that time and was never enrolled in more than two classes per term (accelerated university). When he finished his degree, he still didn't go back to work - but he always had a bank roll in his pocket and started wearing "Guido" gold jewelry. :~ I suspected drugs and gambling, but of course, couldn't prove anything. He checked into rehab last year around this time. I'm betting that he ran out of money, realized the drug use was getting out of hand and that he couldn't explain his continued unemployment to his parents, who were still subsidizing his income. Voila! Hey... if I check into rehab, mom and dad will feel sorry for me; pay for rehab and keep me on payroll. K'ching!! I get to keep my kids now too, since I'm a good boy and initiated re-hab all by myself. ***grumble***

So you see - ex has no verifiable income from 2005 to 2008 (he JUST got a job a short time before filing his custody modification order). His new job has a base salary, which he divulged in deposition, but would not discuss the commission structure. He wouldn't even reveal WHO he worked for and said "That's none of your business." His stated mortgage and car payment expense exceed MY net pay, which is more than what he's stated he makes. This is why I'm highly suspicious of his motives for stalling on providing documentation. I smell a rat!

Anyway... I do appreciate your insight from your own experience.

 

[OhReally?]

My question is this: My attorney has now sent two requests to Ex's attorney, requesting Production of Documents. The first request was disputed by ex's attorney, citing there was not enough time provided (less than 30 days) before the parenting time hearing. Okay - fine. That was three months ago now. In October, my attorney sent a second request; this time, stating documents need to be returned in 14 days (since we are well past the original 30 days of the first request.) Still no response.

Your attorney is not following legal procedure. THAT is most likely the sole reason why your ex has not provided this documentation. Also, many people push the envelope when it comes to request for production because there isn't an immediate sanction for refusing to do so. You have to file a Motion to Compel after that and so on. But that's IF your attorney followed procedure, which sounds like s/he did not. I would have the attorney send a second request -- and give them whatever time is prescribed by rules of procedure and/or local rules of the court (usually 28 days, plus 3 days for service).

 

[LdiJ]

Dad - you're busy tonight!

Now that I've resigned to losing custody of my children, I'm trying to protect my own security. I have no issue with paying support, but want it calculated on real numbers.

Ex was laid off in 2005 and went back to school. He chose not to work during that time and was never enrolled in more than two classes per term (accelerated university). When he finished his degree, he still didn't go back to work - but he always had a bank roll in his pocket and started wearing "Guido" gold jewelry. :~ I suspected drugs and gambling, but of course, couldn't prove anything. He checked into rehab last year around this time. I'm betting that he ran out of money, realized the drug use was getting out of hand and that he couldn't explain his continued unemployment to his parents, who were still subsidizing his income. Voila! Hey... if I check into rehab, mom and dad will feel sorry for me; pay for rehab and keep me on payroll. K'ching!! I get to keep my kids now too, since I'm a good boy and initiated re-hab all by myself. ***grumble***

So you see - ex has no verifiable income from 2005 to 2008 (he JUST got a job a short time before filing his custody modification order). His new job has a base salary, which he divulged in deposition, but would not discuss the commission structure. He wouldn't even reveal WHO he worked for and said "That's none of your business." His stated mortgage and car payment expense exceed MY net pay, which is more than what he's stated he makes. This is why I'm highly suspicious of his motives for stalling on providing documentation. I smell a rat!

Anyway... I do appreciate your insight from your own experience.

Its quite possible that he has income that he is not reporting to the IRS...which would absolutely explain his reluctance to reveal it in any kind of official setting.

 

[WillingToFight]

Its quite possible that he has income that he is not reporting to the IRS...which would absolutely explain his reluctance to reveal it in any kind of official setting.

This is exactly what I suspect, as well. He pulled out a bank roll last year while I was sitting next to him at my son's basketball game and bragged that he'd 'cleaned up' at a recent poker tournament. My attorney questioned him in deposition about his gambling activities and he denied ANY activities or income. I also found some seedy profiles online (picture and all) where he mentions his affinity for playing cards. Shows his photo, name and birthdate and he still denied it was him :~

Anyway... I do suspect he does not want to reveal income for audit reasons but honestly - how does he expect the court to assign child support without proper documentation? I just don't get it.

As for my attorney not following procedure, I believe in the initial request that may have been the case but on the second request, we were already well past the customary waiting period. I just switched attorneys so will discuss filing a motion to compel. So far, the judge assigned to our case has suggested I withdraw my motions (ex refused to reimburse me for medical expenses, etc.) The judge was previously a public defender, and a recovering alcoholic. Maybe this explains his downplaying all of my ex's behavior patterns.

 

[IL_Dad_2]

Its quite possible that he has income that he is not reporting to the IRS...which would absolutely explain his reluctance to reveal it in any kind of official setting.

One thing that I am having to come to grips with the concept of diminshing returns, associated with the level of effort to prove someone dishonest.

If your ex is fighting so hard, and spending so much money in the process, trying to hid his income, he will probably go the distance - as long as he can.

You might have to relent to the reality that you might never know the full story.

You have to decide how much money you want to spend to get at the truth.

I have discovered the justice might be blind, but it is not cheap. You have to pay for that "blindness".

Unfortunatly, the NCP has few avenues of assistance to "level" the playing field - in paying for this "blindness".

 

[WillingToFight]

Your attorney is not following legal procedure. THAT is most likely the sole reason why your ex has not provided this documentation. Also, many people push the envelope when it comes to request for production because there isn't an immediate sanction for refusing to do so. You have to file a Motion to Compel after that and so on. But that's IF your attorney followed procedure, which sounds like s/he did not. I would have the attorney send a second request -- and give them whatever time is prescribed by rules of procedure and/or local rules of the court (usually 28 days, plus 3 days for service).

These were filed by my first attorney. I just retained a new one last week so will ask her to review the letters and what her thoughts are on filing a motion to compel (my other attorney mentioned doing that too, but gave them a second request before going there.) If we need to send a third letter requesting documents, I'll have my attorney follow procedure to the letter. When the documents still aren't brought forth, THEN I'll insist on filing a motion to compel.

Thanks for your input!

 

[WillingToFight]

One thing that I am having to come to grips with the concept of diminshing returns, associated with the level of effort to prove someone dishonest.

If your ex is fighting so hard, and spending so much money in the process, trying to hid his income, he will probably go the distance - as long as he can.

You might have to relent to the reality that you might never know the full story.

You have to decide how much money you want to spend to get at the truth.

I have discovered the justice might be blind, but it is not cheap. You have to pay for that "blindness".

Unfortunatly, the NCP has view avenues of assistance to "level" the playing field - in paying for this "blindness".

Dad - I totally agree. I have sensed from very early on in this case that Ex was willing to drag this out to bleed my finances. I'm sure he plans on recovering his attorney fees too. Having my attorney send a letter requesting documents isn't that expensive and sooner or later, it's just going to have to be brought out - isn't it? We are hoping to have a settlement conference in January. Perhaps he'll bargain in the CS in order to avoid showing his true financial situation.

One thing that just fries me is that I know he won't spend all the money on my kids. He'll end up buying a new car, snorting it or smoking it. Kids will see Hamburger Helper and some other basic necessities. Oh well - I can't control what he does with the money and I'm sure I'm not alone on this topic of frustration :~

 

[IL_Dad_2]

Aww, accountablity for CS...

One thing that just fries me is that I know he won't spend all the money on my kids. He'll end up buying a new car, snorting it or smoking it. Kids will see Hamburger Helper and some other basic necessities. Oh well - I can't control what he does with the money and I'm sure I'm not alone on this topic of frustration :~

Accountability is a nice fantasy.

Oh to dream...

All you can do is hold up your end of the bargain.

Unless you can demonstrate that your ex is guilty of neglect, you can not make him be more responsible.

I can give you a wonderful disseration on the need for more accountabilty in our society... but you do not have the time (and I do not have the inclincation)

This is another one of this unfair realities of life that we, as paying parents have to face.

Maybe "karma" will catch up to him, maybe not...

As long as no serious harm has befell your children, well...

Good luck to you.

 

[cyjeff]

Wait a minute.

Both dad and son are in drug rehab and he was STILL declared the best parent?

There is an awful lot more to this story.

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Oregon

Soon, I'll be ordered to pay child support to my ex, going retro-active to the date he filed a motion to change custody and parenting time. I'm coming to grips with accepting there is nothing I can do to change that and am preparing my finances so that I'll be able to have an appropriate amount of money set aside at the time judgment is ordered.

My question is this: My attorney has now sent two requests to Ex's attorney, requesting Production of Documents. The first request was disputed by ex's attorney, citing there was not enough time provided (less than 30 days) before the parenting time hearing. Okay - fine. That was three months ago now. In October, my attorney sent a second request; this time, stating documents need to be returned in 14 days (since we are well past the original 30 days of the first request.) Still no response.

Some of the documents requested were related to gift income (from parents), gambling winnings/losses and any income earned over the past five years as a "business consultant."

If ex plans on collecting child support from me, what advantage could he possibly have by refusing to provide standard financial information? Without this information, how is anyone supposed to know how to calculate child support?

I'm very confused by these tactics and wonder if there's some kind of advantage in strategy on ex's part.

Thanks for any ideas...

Your attorney needs to file a motion to compel and request SANCTIONS against the other side for failing to answer discovery.

 

[Ohiogal]

Is this a shared income state?

If not, then, even if the court asks for it, they might not compel him to produce the documents, because CS is based on your income only.

If it is a shared income state, I can not see a reason for not producing the documents, because it will only delay him receiving the CS for your children.

It does not make any rational sense to me.

YOU ARE WRONG. Discovery is allowed to be done on both parties. They will compel him to produce as both sides are allowed and entitled to discover information when there is an open case. End of story.

 

[Ohiogal]

Post-Original Judgment award for attorneys fees are usually not granted.

You ex initiated the action, so, in my opinion, this is on his dime.

If a settlement conference is not possible, see if you can have mediation.

Mediation usually does not allow discussions concerning CS, so this will be left up to the courts.

The courts should require his financial infomation, unless you and your attorney agree to proceed with out that information.

Do not agree to a custody change that is not what you feel is in the best interest of the children.

And, do not fight for time to avoid paying CS.

Really? Post original judgment attorney fees are not normally granted? How many hearings have you been involved with? HOw many times have you seen them denied or granted? What is your background?