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termination and leverage

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antoniomelandri

Junior Member
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Texas
I'll be telegraphic but hopefully clear:
Child is 1 1/2 years old, born out of wedlock from a rather casual relationship. DNA proved paternity. Child and mother live about 300 miles from me. Had temporary court order now expired. Mother managed to let me see the child only twice. Paid a LOT of money to take her to court three times.
Now my attorney filed a paternity suit. The mother failed to respond, but on an email she proposed termination.
Questions: if I accept termination: how many chances under these circumstances that the judge will grant it? Since even with the temp court order I could not get the mother to cooperate, what is the point of continuing to pay this much in attorney fees and all kinds of support? What chances do I have that a court might actually sanction a single mother, with a precarious job situation, for failing to grant visitation? If I terminate, but also offer voluntary contributions, and since the mother has been so keen on getting the money, could I use the voluntary contributions to get access to the child? ("no money this month, unless..." ) If I use that sort of leverage, while we had termination, could the mother accuse me of harassment? Incidentally, the mother has been highly erratic, and everyone who has dealt with her believed that she was mentally unstable. At the same time, she was married before and she could find a stepfather for the child. It all comes down to how I can get a bit of leverage without driving myself bankrupt (which is what I'm doing with the current full support plus taking her to court countless times). AM
 


brisgirl825

Senior Member
Since she is single, you can't TPR. There must be a step-dad willing to adopt. If, in the future, this something you choose to do, you will not have any rights to visitation whatsoever. Nor will you be required to pay CS.
My advice is to look into legal aid to enforce your visitation rights.
 

Whyte Noise

Senior Member
You said,

antoniomelandri said:
If I terminate, but also offer voluntary contributions, and since the mother has been so keen on getting the money, could I use the voluntary contributions to get access to the child? ("no money this month, unless..." ) If I use that sort of leverage, while we had termination, could the mother accuse me of harassment?
Honey, that's not "leverage" nor "harassment", that's called EXTORTION and is illegal in every state in this country.

And please, PLEASE, on all that is Holy... stop telling people that there must be a stepparent willing to adopt a child before you can relinquish rights unless you know for a fact that it's true in that poster's state!! It is NOT true for Texas, this posters state, nor is that true for many other states.

Like I normally do on these types of threads, I implore you to do a search on the name "Boxcarbill" who is a Texas Family Law attorney that used to post on these boards and who has explained Voluntary Relinquishment of Parental Rights in depth, many times over. For those too lazy to use the search function, here is one post for you:

https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133132&highlight=Relinquishment+of+Parental+Rights

And a snippet of one of BCB's responses in that thread:

Boxcarbill said:
No. Adoption is not a requirement for termination. In fact, they are two separate actions, although termination can be joined with an adoption. Now, if a parent files the Motion for Termination and is the same parent who is the affiant in the Affidavit of Voluntary Relinquishment of Parental Rights, then it will fail the smell test. It will reek of self-serving rather than in the best interest of the child. But if the parent who is filing the Motion for Termination is different from the parent who executes a voluntary relinquishment of parental rights, then it will probably be granted. (The presumption is that a fit parent (the one who filed the Motion) acts in their child's best interest.)
Edited to add: The above quoted response by BCB was in direct correlation to a poster from Texas, and based on Texas law.
 
Last edited:

antoniomelandri

Junior Member
termination and leverage (what defines "extortion"?)

QUOTE Originally Posted by antoniomelandri
If I terminate, but also offer voluntary contributions, and since the mother has been so keen on getting the money, could I use the voluntary contributions to get access to the child? ("no money this month, unless..." ) If I use that sort of leverage, while we had termination, could the mother accuse me of harassment?

QUOTED REPLY
Honey, that's not "leverage" nor "harassment", that's called EXTORTION and is illegal in every state in this country.
END OF QUOTE

Thank you both. And, since you brought "extortion" up: first, my apology for sounding to determined; because I am law-abiding that I don't want my frustration to take over. Second, let me ask you if, when I go in front of the judge, I could really have the ex "sanctioned", fined, charged with court expenses, etc., for doing something that to me does sound like extortion indeed: she denied visitation on the ground that supposedly I had not paid 50% of prenatal expenses, which of course was not true: my checks deposited to her account proved that, which did help the day I obtained a temporary order for immediate visitation, but on that occasion, and even with this proof, and even more, with an email in which her attorney (!) requested that I show up with $5,000 on a given day, hand the money and THEN be introduced to the child (I called this a Checkpoint Charlie tactic), I could not get the court to penalize her in any way. Now the mother demands ca. 10k before granting any visitation, without providing any receipt as proof. And of course, while the temp order was in place, she refused to share medical records with me despite the court ordered joint managing conservatorship. Yet, given the precedent, I have little hope that she is going to be punished at all.
If you wonder if I have done anything that might have steered the judge into a lenient attitude toward her, I can guarantee that NO, I have not done anything wrong either by law, or, I believe, by moral standards. The ex, after finding out she was pregnant, refused any sort of relationship, and yet, claimed all the support she could get by law.
 

antoniomelandri

Junior Member
termination and leverage (what defines "extortion"?)

QUOTE Originally Posted by antoniomelandri
If I terminate, but also offer voluntary contributions, and since the mother has been so keen on getting the money, could I use the voluntary contributions to get access to the child? ("no money this month, unless..." ) If I use that sort of leverage, while we had termination, could the mother accuse me of harassment?

QUOTED REPLY
Honey, that's not "leverage" nor "harassment", that's called EXTORTION and is illegal in every state in this country.
END OF QUOTE

Thank you both. And, since you brought "extortion" up: first, my apology for sounding to determined; I am law-abiding and I don't want my frustration to take over. Second, let me ask you if, when I go in front of the judge, I could really have the ex "sanctioned", fined, charged with court expenses, etc., for doing something that to me does sound like extortion indeed: she denied visitation on the ground that supposedly I had not paid 50% of prenatal expenses, which of course was not true: my checks deposited to her account proved that, which did help the day I obtained a temporary order for immediate visitation, but on that occasion, and even with this proof, and even more, with an email in which her attorney (!) requested that I show up with $5,000 on a given day, hand the money and THEN be introduced to the child (I called this a Checkpoint Charlie tactic), I could not get the court to penalize her in any way. Now the mother demands ca. 10k before granting any visitation, without providing any receipt as proof. And of course, while the temp order was in place, she refused to share medical records with me despite the court ordered joint managing conservatorship. Yet, given the precedent, I have little hope that she is going to be punished at all. Am I vindictive? No, I really believe that only a tangible and realistic threat of sanctions will push her to cooperate. That's why I started this thread under the headline "leverage."
If you wonder if I have done anything that might have steered the judge into a lenient attitude toward her, I can guarantee that NO, I have not done anything wrong either by law, or, I believe, by moral standards. The ex, after finding out she was pregnant, refused any sort of relationship, and yet, claimed all the support she could get by law.
 

brisgirl825

Senior Member
MissouriGal said:
You said,



Honey, that's not "leverage" nor "harassment", that's called EXTORTION and is illegal in every state in this country.

And please, PLEASE, on all that is Holy... stop telling people that there must be a stepparent willing to adopt a child before you can relinquish rights unless you know for a fact that it's true in that poster's state!! It is NOT true for Texas, this posters state, nor is that true for many other states.

Like I normally do on these types of threads, I implore you to do a search on the name "Boxcarbill" who is a Texas Family Law attorney that used to post on these boards and who has explained Voluntary Relinquishment of Parental Rights in depth, many times over. For those too lazy to use the search function, here is one post for you:

https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133132&highlight=Relinquishment+of+Parental+Rights

And a snippet of one of BCB's responses in that thread:



Edited to add: The above quoted response by BCB was in direct correlation to a poster from Texas, and based on Texas law.
I am sorry but from what I have learned here, the only time that a TPR has been done, w/o an adoption, is when the parent is financially stable enough to support the child by themself. OP said that his ex is currently NOT financially stable at the moment.
 

Whyte Noise

Senior Member
If she was denying you visitation when you had a valid temporary court order giving you that right, THEN was the time to take her to court for that. It's called "contempt" when you fail to follow a court order. However, now that your temproary order has been allowed to expire and not become permanant, I don't know if there's anything you can do about her denials.

Why was the temp. order not made permanant and are you still under a current child support order?
 

Whyte Noise

Senior Member
brisgirl825 said:
I am sorry but from what I have learned here, the only time that a TPR has been done, w/o an adoption, is when the parent is financially stable enough to support the child by themself. OP said that his ex is currently NOT financially stable at the moment.
And I pasted a link to a post by a TEXAS attorney on a TEXAS thread that answered TEXAS questions which has no mention of TEXAS requiring such a thing. Just to be sure though, I looked up the Texas code, and no... there was nothing there at all about the parent having to prove they're financially able to support the child. Unless, of course, I missed it somehow. If someone does find that, please let me know because BCB would have left something out.

Our OP in this thread is also from Texas and Texas law is what is applicable.

In a single parent ADOPTION, however, the prospective adoptive parent DOES have to prove that they are financially able to care for a child on their own. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
 

antoniomelandri

Junior Member
MissouriGal said:
And I pasted a link to a post by a TEXAS attorney on a TEXAS thread that answered TEXAS questions which has no mention of TEXAS requiring such a thing. Just to be sure though, I looked up the Texas code, and no... there was nothing there at all about the parent having to prove they're financially able to support the child. Unless, of course, I missed it somehow. If someone does find that, please let me know because BCB would have left something out.

Our OP in this thread is also from Texas and Texas law is what is applicable.

In a single parent ADOPTION, however, the prospective adoptive parent DOES have to prove that they are financially able to care for a child on their own. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
Thank you again for referring me to Boxcarbill's advice. Now two questions:
1) When I follow up reinstating the case through my existing paternity suit, do I have any power to request the mother/custodial parent to provide evidence of financial solvency (using her email where she states that she would rather have termination)? (or would simply asking that "fail the smell test", as Mr. Box says, sounding self-serving?)
2) If I should obtain a relinquishment of parental rights, can I still give voluntary contributions, or would that be considered interference? And, for my purpose, totally useless? (my hope in this case is that in the future I will be able to show the child that, despite the mother's desire and success in terminating my parental rights, I was still willing to provide some care, including medical insurance). By the way, the child and the mother reside in Texas; I don't. But I am told this doesn't change anything.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
MissouriGal said:
And I pasted a link to a post by a TEXAS attorney on a TEXAS thread that answered TEXAS questions which has no mention of TEXAS requiring such a thing. Just to be sure though, I looked up the Texas code, and no... there was nothing there at all about the parent having to prove they're financially able to support the child. Unless, of course, I missed it somehow. If someone does find that, please let me know because BCB would have left something out.

Our OP in this thread is also from Texas and Texas law is what is applicable.

In a single parent ADOPTION, however, the prospective adoptive parent DOES have to prove that they are financially able to care for a child on their own. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
I have had some direct experience with a few Texas cases. In a couple the judge did agree to a TPR without a stepparent adoption, however in each of those cases the judge clearly determined that there was basically no chance that the mother would ever need state assistance before granting the TPR. In both cases the mothers were high income earners.

In my state, IN...there is also no law on the books requiring a stepparent to be willing to adopt. However if you ask ANY family law attorney in Indiana whether its possible to TPR without a stepparent adoption (of course unless its CPS terminating due to unfitness) ...the answer that you will get is that "Indiana judges do not *******ize children....a stepparent adoption in necessary in order to TPR". That phrase must be taught in Indiana lawschools...or be part of the Indiana Bar Exam....because it comes out of every attorney's mouth...almost word for word.

...and....if anybody can show any example of voluntary TPR, anywhere in the country...without a steppparent adoption....when the CP is on state aid....then that would change things enormously. I don't think that anyone can....but hey...if its happened I would really like to know.
 

Whyte Noise

Senior Member
I'll call one I know there tomorrow LdiJ, and let you know what he says. :p

And, is there anything that you don't know of personally or have direct experience with? ;)
 

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