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  1. #1
    okiewife is offline Junior Member
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    Question Working under the table, verifying income

    What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Oklahoma

    My husband is self employed, he was welding here when the oil field was good and making great money and paid his child support on time, every time, well the oil field has since busted and he went about three months without a job.... He is now self employed again but only making minimum wage, however he is being paid under the table and there is really no way to verify what he actually makes, he is paid in cash every time, and the individuals who are paying him don't want to verify what they have paid him for their own tax purposes. We don't mind this, but however we have a modification request in with Child Support and I'm wondering if anyone would happen to know if they will take his word that he is working full time and making minimum wage at 40 hours a week. Anything you may know about this would be helpful, thanks.What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
  2. #2
    TinkerBelleLuvr is offline Senior Member
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    So the impute him the last set of wages that can be proven as his income. He'll have to produce proof if lower.
  3. #3
    Proserpina is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiewife View Post
    What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Oklahoma

    My husband is self employed, he was welding here when the oil field was good and making great money and paid his child support on time, every time, well the oil field has since busted and he went about three months without a job.... He is now self employed again but only making minimum wage, however he is being paid under the table and there is really no way to verify what he actually makes, he is paid in cash every time, and the individuals who are paying him don't want to verify what they have paid him for their own tax purposes. We don't mind this, but however we have a modification request in with Child Support and I'm wondering if anyone would happen to know if they will take his word that he is working full time and making minimum wage at 40 hours a week. Anything you may know about this would be helpful, thanks.What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
    Just to clarify, are you asking if the Court will accept your husband's word that though he has no proof, he is indeed working full time at min. wage? As opposed to him saying he's not working at all?
  4. #4
    okiewife is offline Junior Member
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    Yes Basically I'm wondering if they will accept his word, I am just guessing that they would appreciate the fact that he is employed and is making money, I am employed full time as well, but my income is of course not counted towards his child support obligation. If he has to produce proof of this income, do you think it's acceptable that he simply tells them who all he has worked for? or produces invoices of some type? It's a difficult situation because there are clients who wouldn't use him if they can't pay him in this manner but we couldn't afford to lose those clients as they are his only source of income.... but at the same time I wouldn't want the court to require him to participate in a work program when he is gainfully employed... I'm just not quite sure what is best at handling this situation. We have 4 other children in our home, that we support as well. And he has joint custody with the ex, no problems there. We just need the child support modified because there is a big difference in making over a hundred thousand a year to about 1500 a month for him.
  5. #5
    Proserpina is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiewife View Post
    Yes Basically I'm wondering if they will accept his word, I am just guessing that they would appreciate the fact that he is employed and is making money, I am employed full time as well, but my income is of course not counted towards his child support obligation. If he has to produce proof of this income, do you think it's acceptable that he simply tells them who all he has worked for? or produces invoices of some type? It's a difficult situation because there are clients who wouldn't use him if they can't pay him in this manner but we couldn't afford to lose those clients as they are his only source of income.... but at the same time I wouldn't want the court to require him to participate in a work program when he is gainfully employed... I'm just not quite sure what is best at handling this situation. We have 4 other children in our home, that we support as well. And he has joint custody with the ex, no problems there. We just need the child support modified because there is a big difference in making over a hundred thousand a year to about 1500 a month for him.
    I'm wondering if that huge a difference in income might be seen as deliberately becoming underemployed to avoid paying support; curious if the seniors can help me with that question.

    OP, at the very least he'll be imputed an amount; if this is minimum wage then there's no difference between the imputed amount and what you say he's earning. If not - there might be a problem.

    Does your husband intend to pay taxes on his under-the-table earnings? What kind of work is he doing that valued clients won't pay him above board?

    Is your husband the father of the four children you have at home?
  6. #6
    okiewife is offline Junior Member
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    No he is not underemployed by choice, I don't know if you're familiar with the oil field but when it's good it's good and when it's gone it's gone. Anyhow we are in a recession like most of the state, and if he could go back to welding 20 hrs a day which he basically was and making 80 dollars an hour he would, but unfortunately the field is gone and so is the income. He is currently working for farmers, just doing farm labour and general things like that, so the difference in income is understandable, farmers couldn't afford to pay what the oil field did and it's not all welding, perhaps some here and there. I know the courts have to impute an income and I know it has to be at least mninmum wage, my only real question is if anyone has had any experience in proving income that is basically not traceable... Clients are farmers and they are struggling, the taxes I believe are in a different catagory not directly related to child support except as proving income which is again the question on how to go about doing that. The 4 children at home, one is his the other three are not, their fathers are ordered to pay support but haven't, and the matter is with CSE, so my husband is supporting and raising them and has been. I commend him for treating mine like his, rasing loving and supporting them and doing the same for his child that does not live with us... I don't think he is doing anything wrong by having an order amended, every time his ex knew he might be making more money she was in the next day requesting modification, now that he is making less it is his right as well to have it modified down. If anyone knows the direct answer to this question I would really appreciate your input... thanks!
  7. #7
    nextwife is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogmatique View Post
    I'm wondering if that huge a difference in income might be seen as deliberately becoming underemployed to avoid paying support
    I work in real estate/mortgage default, and I see many, many people taking jobs paying WAY less to just HAVE a job. I did, also.

    Amazing how in "the world of child support" something the rest of the society must accept (reduced wages due to a crappy employment market) gets reinterpreted when there is a child support order. We intact families just simply GET less when we have to take lower paying jobs.

    And, many in the contruction trades are telling me that they can't get anyone to pay them what they used to get. That the builder basically says "I'll pay you THIS amt. Take it or leave it, I can get someone else if you don't want it".
    Last edited by nextwife; 05-18-2009 at 04:27 PM.
  8. #8
    okiewife is offline Junior Member
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    That's exactly right... unfortunately this is the way our economy is right now. I feel as if people are interpreting this as all was good when he was paying $1200.00 a month in child support but now that his monthly income is just barely over that he must doing something wrong or trying to get out of paying child support. That isn't the case at all, he loves his child and he will do what he can to support her, but we have to be realistic and get an order that is fair for the income he has now. There are so many people in our area out of work, and out of their homes, he has lost several things already because we simply can't pay for them anymore, it's not a choice to pay child support with him he has to do it and he will always do it, but he can't pay what he doesn't have. He has paid it every month without complaint, even when we had temporary custody of his child for 4 months because of suspected abuse in her mothers home (we got her and she had the bruising imprint of a hanger on her three year old back) he still had to pay his ex wife child support in full every month even though we were the ones with his daughter, because his ex was still the custodial parent. He did pay it and that's just how it was. We simply asked for a modification just this month, because the support amount is too much on us, and he works with unverifiable income and we have no choice but to just pretty much declare what he makes and hope they will accept it. Thanks for your input.
  9. #9
    Proserpina is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by nextwife View Post
    I work in real estate/mortgage default, and I see many, many people taking jobs paying WAY less to just HAVE a job. Amazing how in "the world of child support" something the rest of the society must accept (reduced wages due to a crappy employment market) gets reinterpreted when there is a child support order. We intact families just simply GET less when we have to take lower paying jobs.

    And, many in the contruction trades are telling me that they can't get anyone to pay them what they used to get. That the builder basically says "I'll pay you THIS amt. Take it or leave it, I can get someone else if you don't want it".
    I'm not disputing this for a second, or commenting on it being fair or unfair; but it does seem to be a very common presumption within the system - NCP takes lower-paying job, therefore s/he must be avoiding CS.

    In terms of the second paragraph I was questioning HOW he was getting paid - not how much, really. I worked in the oil/gas industry in the UK before I came to the US (granted it was on the "supplying nuts and bolts to the oil rigs" end of things, which might be a little different) but I can guarantee not one of our employees was ever paid under the table; even the day-labor places won't do that.

    Not saying it's fair. Just that it's a common conclusion (because, I suppose, it IS true in too many cases).

    ETA: OK, now I understand how he's getting paid - farm labor is more likely to be cash in hand, yep!
  10. #10
    mmmagique is offline Member
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    First, the people who are paying him would be better off 1099ing him, so I'm not really buying the fact that they will only pay him under the table.

    Secondly, your husband has a choice. He can either admit to the court that he has unclaimed income; income that he will not be reporting to the IRS, or he can claim that he is unemployed. Of course there is a third choice; he can decide to work the way many of us do...above board and not hiding income.

    No one here is going to give you hints on beating the system.
  11. #11
    okiewife is offline Junior Member
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    That's very cute. I have the answer I was looking for from a state employee with CSE, and it's not that he was trying to beat the system it was an honest question and I'm so sorry that you are uptight and offeneded at the situation of a stranger who you know nothing about, so I suppose you feel you have been wronged by someone in someway and that's very sad, there are dr's that can attend to those types of needs and medications and special programs. For anyone who is wondering the answer to this question I was told that he can actually declare what he is making and if it is pursuant to his education and training etc that it will be accepted and child support will be figured off of that amount. I hope anyone who finds themselves in this situation or anything similar finds this of some use and help. Everyone have a great day! Even those of us who are so caught up in being miserable and trying to include others in our misery that we can't seem to find and enjoy the strands of happiness that God has given us.... I pray you see those and appreciate them, and appreciate people, you never know if the person you are disgruntled with may be that one person you need to depend on for help yourself someday......
  12. #12
    okiewife is offline Junior Member
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    Secondly, your husband has a choice. He can either admit to the court that he has unclaimed income; income that he will not be reporting to the IRS, or he can claim that he is unemployed. Of course there is a third choice; he can decide to work the way many of us do...above board and not hiding income.

    To your statement here,
    the best I can tell is that you must not read or follow conversations very well, he wasn't trying to hide income he needed to declare it but had no way to declare other than by saying what he is getting paid.

    When an individual 1099's someone they have to in turn pay taxes on them, so there are believe it or not people who can not afford to or simply will not do it.
  13. #13
    justalayman is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiewife View Post
    Secondly, your husband has a choice. He can either admit to the court that he has unclaimed income; income that he will not be reporting to the IRS, or he can claim that he is unemployed. Of course there is a third choice; he can decide to work the way many of us do...above board and not hiding income.

    To your statement here,
    the best I can tell is that you must not read or follow conversations very well, he wasn't trying to hide income he needed to declare it but had no way to declare other than by saying what he is getting paid.

    When an individual 1099's someone they have to in turn pay taxes on them, so there are believe it or not people who can not afford to or simply will not do it.
    first, individuals do not 1099 people. (anybody feel free to correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe I am).

    a company that 1099's a person does not have to pay any taxes on that money. In fact, it can be used as a deduction to business income in many situations so it would actually save them money. That is what a 1099 is about. It is reporting expenses for a business that are not employee wages.

    it also let's the IRS know that the payee was receiving money and it should be showing up on their 1040 sometime early the next year.


    I do understand the underemployment situation. Many many people are dealing with it every day now so I am not going to even consider the "took a lesser paying job to beat the system". I'll accept your statements as to why it is what it is.


    Your husband is still required to include the pay as income for tax purposes and as an independent contractor, he will pay more in taxes (percentage wise) than when he was an employee.

    If he is intending on reporting his income on his tax filing, while not the proper way to do things, what else can he do other than tell the courts "I get this much per hour or week and they do not take taxes out of it so I will file it as income come next April (don't forget he needs to, or at least should, be paying quarterly income taxes) and let the courts make the call from there.
  14. #14
    okiewife is offline Junior Member
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    My husband has been self employed for the past two years and received 1099's for his welding business, and yes he does pay his taxes and yes they are quite hefty, we file once a year, we have never done it quarterly, we have a cpa who handles that for us. There must be something to the fact that the farmers do not wish to 1099 him because they stated very plainly that they would pay him in cash for his labor and it's easier on them that way, and they are of course not self proclaimed businesses, so perhaps there would be a business expense or an expense of some sort because if it's all around beneficial to them then there would really be no reason for anyone to ever be paid under the table, but most of us know that it happens everyday, so now my question is if it's completely a benefit to the person paying the other person to turn in a 1099 why wont they?
  15. #15
    okiewife is offline Junior Member
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    Tips & Warnings
    Do not send a 1099-MISC to someone when you have made a personal payment to him. An independent contractor to whom you have made a personal payment unrelated to your trade or business does not receive a 1099-MISC.Do not send a 1099-MISC to an employee. That is what a W-2 is for.An independent contractor receives a 1099-MISC only if you pay him in the course of your trade or business.A household employee who is not an independent contractor should be issued a W-2 by the employer. The employer must also fill out a Schedule H.If you pay someone as an independent contractor who is, in reality, an employee, you can be liable for penalties. Even worse, you can be liable for some of his taxes! An employee is to be paid using the system of a W-2, which includees withholdings for Social Security and Medicare taxes.

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