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Hotel snafu

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justalayman

Senior Member
I expect him to either be dismissed from the suit or found not responsible if we would have to appear. However, my main concern is how they determined what they are saying happened in the court documents they sent me. They are making the boys out to be criminals, when in fact, it was all explained to the hotel seconds/minutes after it happened and I went there that night and verified everything and saw what had happened.

I have a feeling someone from the school's insurance company has misled/stated what happened. Once I find out who is telling the hotel's attorney this nonsense, I will look into suing them.
Suing whom? Nothing you have said even hints at a cause of action but you would have no standing to sue a way. It would be your son, if anybody, that would have standing

The schools insurance company has no first hand knowledge of anything. Additionally if this was a school sponsored trip they may very well have liability here regardless of how this happened.

As to possibly being dismissed; unless your son files the proper motions and that causes an evidentiary hearing to provide adequate information for the court to dismiss your son, he is not going to be dismissed. On the face of the case there is nothing improper with including him as a defendant.

Whether he will be exonerated and as such not held liable for anything, that will be determined in court or the process leading up to a trial.

You also have to understand that the claims in a suit are based on allegations. It is not unusual for a plaintiff to make claims that may not be sustainable. That is the purpose of the trial.
 
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not2cleverRed

Obvious Observer
When sending kids off on a school trip, parents give permission based on the idea that there will be adequate adult supervision.

I would be very surprised if the school had less paperwork, for insurance purposes, than my tiny Girl Scout troop is supposed to put together for a trip to the library.
 

OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
Adults do not babysit students in their rooms. Whether the schools insurance covers the damages or not is irrelevant. The coach as an agent of the school signed for the room and assumed the responsibility for damages made by the students. As the saying goes, crap rolls downhill. If the parents decline to pay for the damages, they can expect to be sued by the school. The hotel should sue the school based on their contract.
 

quincy

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ohio

My son and his friend were staying in a hotel room in Ohio for their high school state's wrestling tournament. While my son was in the bathroom getting ready to go to dinner, his friend accidentally hit a sprinkler head while tossing a water bottle in the air while waiting for my son to get ready. A flood ensued and damaged many of the rooms. Both were minors at the time and both explained everything that happened to their coach and hotel staff, his friend admitting it was entirely his fault and my son did nothing wrong.

Since he was a minor, though he did NOTHING wrong, can I be held financially responsible for this?
The story of how the sprinklers damaged several rooms in the hotel does not make sense.

Following are two links to how sprinklers work.

From NFPA, Fire Sprinkler Initiative: http://www.firesprinklerinitiative.org/advocacy-tools/fact-sheets/how-sprinklers-work.aspx

From Hotel Fires.Sprinklers: http://www.iklimnet.com/hotelfires/sprinkler.html

It appears to me that someone is not being honest about the events at the hotel. Could the boys have been playing with fire in several rooms, perhaps?
 

justalayman

Senior Member
I work around this sort of fire suppression system on a daily basis. They are required in almost every building I am involved in and my work actuslly involves monitoring those fire suppression systems.



depending on the system a single head is likely to flow from 20-30 gallons per minute depending on the pressure (the last system I worked on had a standing pressure of 150 psi on the 5th floor of the building although the rating is usually determined at 20-50 psi) Even at 20 gpm it can result in extensive damage. It will spray until the fire department responds and investigates well enough to determine there is no actual fire after which they will (when they find the shut off valve) turn it off. Even if the FD respond time is short, let's say 10 minutes (which isn't happening that quickly unless they are a fully manned station and are quite close) that's 200 gallons of water. If it takes 20 minutes to get it shut down we have at least 400 gallons of water.

A system is designed to provide a minimum pressure with multiple heads activated (don't recall the actual pressure or flow rate) but what that means is with only one head open the system will have a lot of pressure behind it and will pump out well more than its minimum design standard. It can easily be double the "rated" flow since the rated flow is determined at the lowest rated system pressure.

Then, depending on the type of construction involved, the damage could involve a lot of different parts of the building and it could involve other rooms. If the building is poured concrete floors and block walls it would aid in containing the water but unless it is 5 or more stories it is quite possible to be a wood frames building (quite similar in construction to a typical house). If wood frames you will have much more damage as the room is not as water tight plus the systems used are generally more susceptible to damage from water. Then, the higher the floor the more likely it will involve that many more rooms below

Picture this/ pour 400 gallons of water on the 4th floor of one room in a wood structure building. How many floors below this one room are going to be damaged?


There are so many variables it is impossible to guess what the extent of the damages actuslly are but in reality is doesn't take long for one sprinkler head to cause damage to multiple rooms before the fire department arrived to shut down the system.
 

ackytrak

Junior Member
I work around this sort of fire suppression system on a daily basis. They are required in almost every building I am involved in and my work actuslly involves monitoring those fire suppression systems.



depending on the system a single head is likely to flow from 20-30 gallons per minute depending on the pressure (the last system I worked on had a standing pressure of 150 psi on the 5th floor of the building although the rating is usually determined at 20-50 psi) Even at 20 gpm it can result in extensive damage. It will spray until the fire department responds and investigates well enough to determine there is no actual fire after which they will (when they find the shut off valve) turn it off. Even if the FD respond time is short, let's say 10 minutes (which isn't happening that quickly unless they are a fully manned station and are quite close) that's 200 gallons of water. If it takes 20 minutes to get it shut down we have at least 400 gallons of water.

A system is designed to provide a minimum pressure with multiple heads activated (don't recall the actual pressure or flow rate) but what that means is with only one head open the system will have a lot of pressure behind it and will pump out well more than its minimum design standard. It can easily be double the "rated" flow since the rated flow is determined at the lowest rated system pressure.

Then, depending on the type of construction involved, the damage could involve a lot of different parts of the building and it could involve other rooms. If the building is poured concrete floors and block walls it would aid in containing the water but unless it is 5 or more stories it is quite possible to be a wood frames building (quite similar in construction to a typical house). If wood frames you will have much more damage as the room is not as water tight plus the systems used are generally more susceptible to damage from water. Then, the higher the floor the more likely it will involve that many more rooms below

Picture this/ pour 400 gallons of water on the 4th floor of one room in a wood structure building. How many floors below this one room are going to be damaged?


There are so many variables it is impossible to guess what the extent of the damages actuslly are but in reality is doesn't take long for one sprinkler head to cause damage to multiple rooms before the fire department arrived to shut down the system.

Thanks for your info. Hotel was more than 5 floors. I am surprised that neither maintenance man knew where to turn it off. I would think that their would be more than one shut off to this type of thing and at least 1 on every floor.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Thanks for your info. Hotel was more than 5 floors. I am surprised that neither maintenance man knew where to turn it off. I would think that their would be more than one shut off to this type of thing and at least 1 on every floor.
The 5 floors thing was simply to include multiple possibilities. Depending where you are it might have been wood even somewhat taller but most building taller than 5 stories are more often than not poured concrete floors with either stacked block walls or a steel superstructure with precast concrete walls or possibly block walls

Just saying the concrete buildings do tend to do a better job of containing the water to a single floor but it still will leak down.

Anyway, it can involve multiple rooms.


As to the maintenance guy shutting it off;

It was probably not legal for him to shut it off. Many areas reaquire a responding fire department to shut them down.

As to shut offs. There is likely one main shut off for each floor and a main for the entire building. Depending on the system there could be others as well. It doesn't really matter though because a maintenance man should not be touching them. There are a lot of laws involving life safety systems (which fire suppression systems are one of) and most states do not allow anybody other than a very few entities to do anything with them. Sprinkler systems are one of the most heavily regulated building systems out there. You simply don't do anything with them unless you are legally authorized to do so
 

OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
Many hotels do not keep 24 hour maintenance if they are smaller. At most they have an auditor/manager and a houseman/valet. Some properties do not leave keys to maintenance areas as a matter of practice, they call in the maintenance supervisor from home in an emergency.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
OH is quite right about that. I worked for 8 years as the night auditor of a hotel where I was the only staff member on site from one o'clock (and often earlier) until my relief came in at 7:00. If anything such as you're describing had happened while I was on duty I would have had to call the fire department; I wouldn't have had any other option.
 

ackytrak

Junior Member
The 5 floors thing was simply to include multiple possibilities. Depending where you are it might have been wood even somewhat taller but most building taller than 5 stories are more often than not poured concrete floors with either stacked block walls or a steel superstructure with precast concrete walls or possibly block walls

Just saying the concrete buildings do tend to do a better job of containing the water to a single floor but it still will leak down.

Anyway, it can involve multiple rooms.


As to the maintenance guy shutting it off;

It was probably not legal for him to shut it off. Many areas reaquire a responding fire department to shut them down.

As to shut offs. There is likely one main shut off for each floor and a main for the entire building. Depending on the system there could be others as well. It doesn't really matter though because a maintenance man should not be touching them. There are a lot of laws involving life safety systems (which fire suppression systems are one of) and most states do not allow anybody other than a very few entities to do anything with them. Sprinkler systems are one of the most heavily regulated building systems out there. You simply don't do anything with them unless you are legally authorized to do so



My sons friend only hit and set off one sprinkler in their room and the water came out. My son ran to the coach's room and got him. After seeing that it was nothing they could do to contain it they went and got maintenance. The guy did not know how or where to turn the water off and called another maintenance guy, who also was clueless. The fire dept was brought in and could not turn it off quickly, so they pulled the toilet in the boys room to allow the water to drain into the toilet pipe until they could find how and where to turn it off. During all of this time water went every where.
 

ackytrak

Junior Member
Many hotels do not keep 24 hour maintenance if they are smaller. At most they have an auditor/manager and a houseman/valet. Some properties do not leave keys to maintenance areas as a matter of practice, they call in the maintenance supervisor from home in an emergency.
It happened sometime late afternoon/early evening, so there were maintenance staff still there. Very large hotel.
 

OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
Intentional fire system damage is not something he would be trained for. The sprinkler system is maintained by outside companies. Unless the fire department is standing by in most localities it is illegal to disable it for other rooms. Why are you dead set on not paying the damages the child incurred from his negligence?
 

ackytrak

Junior Member
Intentional fire system damage is not something he would be trained for. The sprinkler system is maintained by outside companies. Unless the fire department is standing by in most localities it is illegal to disable it for other rooms. Why are you dead set on not paying the damages the child incurred from his negligence?
My son was in the bathroom when his friend hit the sprinkler accidentally while tossing a water bottle. Why would I pay for something my son didn't do? If you read from start of post you will understand my point.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
My sons friend only hit and set off one sprinkler in their room and the water came out. My son ran to the coach's room and got him. After seeing that it was nothing they could do to contain it they went and got maintenance. The guy did not know how or where to turn the water off and called another maintenance guy, who also was clueless. The fire dept was brought in and could not turn it off quickly, so they pulled the toilet in the boys room to allow the water to drain into the toilet pipe until they could find how and where to turn it off. During all of this time water went every where.


Well, you'll have that. I suspect I could find a shut off if i was there. I'm surprised the fire department couldn't find one either. Maybe the installation is not a proper installation so there are not shut offs where they should be.

Hint: there should be a shut off for each floor on the main riser pipe which is usually in a stairwell.

Beyond that there will be a main shut off where the supply enters the building. It is usually located in a room where you will find an outside connection point for the fire department (a metal thing on the outside wall where a fire hose attaches to). That is usually where you will find the outside audible alarm (fire bell)


But none the less, it is quite likely it would be illegal for the maintenance guy to shut off the water.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
And to contain it?

Lots of trash cans and a bunch of people. You hold a trash can over the head until it fills. You replace with another one while the first is emptied. Given it is pumping out at least 1/3 gallon per second it won't take long to fill a trash can so you need a bunch of trash cans and a bunch of porters.

Everybody gets wet. Hopefully they flush the lines annually (I already know they don't though becasue almost nobody does) because if they don't what comes out of the lines initially is affectionately referred to as "black yack". It is water, rust, cutting oil, and any other contaminate in the pipes that has sat there for years. It is kind of like the exploding dye packs the banks use in stolen money. It will generally indicate the actual culprit as it is not easy to wash off.
 

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