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Is it legal to draw with chalk on sidewalks?

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rouvis

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ontario

So I would like to use chalk to mark locations on public sidewalks, and such marks will not be permanent.
Is it legal to do so?

I understand that this forum is US-based, and ideas from other jurisdictions will be appreciated. Thank you in advance?
 


quincy

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ontario

So I would like to use chalk to mark locations on public sidewalks, and such marks will not be permanent.
Is it legal to do so?

I understand that this forum is US-based, and ideas from other jurisdictions will be appreciated. Thank you in advance?
There are 50 states in the US. Each of them have different laws. In addition, cities and townships have local ordinances. Whether any chalk drawing violates a law will depend on a whole host of factors, including the location of the chalking, the content of the chalking, and even the person who is doing the chalking.

I have no idea how the different provinces in Canada view chalk drawings and markings. I suggest you check your local government offices if you have some chalk and feel the urge to make marks on public sidewalks.
 
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ontario
So I would like to use chalk to mark locations on public sidewalks, and such marks will not be permanent.
Is it legal to do so?
I understand that this forum is US-based, and ideas from other jurisdictions will be appreciated. Thank you in advance?
What the heck does "mark locations" mean? This isn't really a legal question so much as it is a common sense question. There isn't going to be a law that makes it legal or illegal to mark locations on public sidewalks in chalk, so the response that you receive to what you do will depend on what you do. If your marks are few, small, and only really noticeable to you, then it's not likely that there will be any response. If your marks cause a major disruption to other people or offend other people enough, then it's likely that someone will tell you to stop and if you don't then it's likely that someone will find some way to take some kind of legal action against you. If this is some kind of "art" project or "public service" project (like "drains to river" stencils on storm drains), then get someone in some city department to approve the project BEFORE you make the marks.
 

quincy

Senior Member
What the heck does "mark locations" mean? This isn't really a legal question so much as it is a common sense question. There isn't going to be a law that makes it legal or illegal to mark locations on public sidewalks in chalk, so the response that you receive to what you do will depend on what you do. If your marks are few, small, and only really noticeable to you, then it's not likely that there will be any response. If your marks cause a major disruption to other people or offend other people enough, then it's likely that someone will tell you to stop and if you don't then it's likely that someone will find some way to take some kind of legal action against you. If this is some kind of "art" project or "public service" project (like "drains to river" stencils on storm drains), then get someone in some city department to approve the project BEFORE you make the marks.
Do you know the laws in all of the various municipalities in Ontario, Mark?

The wording of some of the laws in the US indicate that what you wrote is not correct for some of the areas in this country (where "graffiti" or "vandalism" can be charged). More importantly, what may be true in some areas of the US may not be true for all of Canada, all of Ontario, or for any one of the villages, towns or cities in the province.

rouvis needs to contact his local government to determine if his chalk marks will violate any law or ordinance.
 
Do you know the laws in all of the various municipalities in Ontario, Mark?

The wording of some of the laws in the US indicate that what you wrote is not correct for some of the areas in this country (where "graffiti" or "vandalism" can be charged). More importantly, what may be true in some areas of the US may not be true for all of Canada, all of Ontario, or for any one of the villages, towns or cities in the province.

rouvis needs to contact his local government to determine if his chalk marks will violate any law or ordinance.
I don't need to know any specific law to stand by what I said. I agree that rouvis needs to contact his local government to determine if his chalk marks will violate any law or ordinance. In fact, I specifically suggested that. In addition, I never said, nor did I imply, that what rouvis intends to do might not well be illegal. What I said was that rouvis is not likely to find a law that specifically addresses chalk marks on public sidewalks. In point of fact, what I implied was that what he is thinking about doing is in fact probably illegal under some statute (such as prohibitions against "graffiti" or "vandalism" as you suggest), but that like many laws (eg. "jaywalking") any illegality would only be enforced (as you and I both suggested) based on what was actually done, where it was done, who did it, why they did it, and what effect it had on other people, etcetera.

BTW, rouvis made a point of stating that the chalk marks would not be "permanent". This might mitigate someone's umbrage over the chalk marks, but if someone wants to find a cause of action against rouvis for the chalk marks (eg. violation of some prohibition against "graffiti" or "vandalism"), then it probably won't matter that rouvis characterized the chalk marks as not permanent. For instance, if the city has to hire someone to deal with the chalk marks and their consequences (city cleaners to clean off the chalk marks, or police to direct pedestrians or traffic), then the city may try to find a way to recover those expenses from rouvis.

The bottom line is that public property is not yours, mine, or theirs to unilaterally "modify" as we see fit, even if it is not a "permanent" modification. What if rouvis thinks that it would be a cool art project to toilet paper the trees in the public square. Gee, it's not permanent and it didn't hurt anyone, whatever. My bet is that someone would find a way to make rouvis pay to have it cleaned up.

Again, at this point in the discussion this seems to me like a common sense question more than a legal question.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I don't need to know any specific law to stand by what I said. I agree that rouvis needs to contact his local government to determine if his chalk marks will violate any law or ordinance. In fact, I specifically suggested that. In addition, I never said, nor did I imply, that what rouvis intends to do might not well be illegal. What I said was that rouvis is not likely to find a law that specifically addresses chalk marks on public sidewalks. In point of fact, what I implied was that what he is thinking about doing is in fact probably illegal under some statute (such as prohibitions against "graffiti" or "vandalism" as you suggest), but that like many laws (eg. "jaywalking") any illegality would only be enforced (as you and I both suggested) based on what was actually done, where it was done, who did it, why they did it, and what effect it had on other people, etcetera.

BTW, rouvis made a point of stating that the chalk marks would not be "permanent". This might mitigate someone's umbrage over the chalk marks, but if someone wants to find a cause of action against rouvis for the chalk marks (eg. violation of some prohibition against "graffiti" or "vandalism"), then it probably won't matter that rouvis characterized the chalk marks as not permanent. For instance, if the city has to hire someone to deal with the chalk marks and their consequences (city cleaners to clean off the chalk marks, or police to direct pedestrians or traffic), then the city may try to find a way to recover those expenses from rouvis.

The bottom line is that public property is not yours, mine, or theirs to unilaterally "modify" as we see fit, even if it is not a "permanent" modification. What if rouvis thinks that it would be a cool art project to toilet paper the trees in the public square. Gee, it's not permanent and it didn't hurt anyone, whatever. My bet is that someone would find a way to make rouvis pay to have it cleaned up.

Again, at this point in the discussion this seems to me like a common sense question more than a legal question.
Actually, the question rouvis asks is a legal question rather than a common sense question. This particular legal question has been asked on this site before by posters who reside in the US.

Because rouvis does not live in the US, unless one is familiar with the laws in Ontario (and in rouvis' area of Ontario in particular), it is not possible to say whether there is a legal action that addresses chalk markings on public sidewalks or not.

The only common sense comes from knowing that laws differ from country to country, often in substantial ways - which is why this forum limits questions to U.S. law questions only and why this forum also asks a poster to provide the name of the state.
 
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Actually, the question rouvis asks is a legal question rather than a common sense question. This particular legal question has been asked on this site before by posters who reside in the US.

Because rouvis does not live in the US, unless one is familiar with the laws in Ontario (and in rouvis' area of Ontario in particular), it is not possible to say whether there is a legal action that addresses chalk markings on public sidewalks or not.

The only common sense comes from knowing that laws differ from country to country, often in substantial ways - which is why this forum limits questions to U.S. law questions only.
SIGH

I guess if rouvis wanted to limit the discussion to the question "Is it legal to draw with chalk on sidewalks?" (in Ontario Canada), and rouvis didn't want to have ANY discussion past that point, then I apologize for all of my inappropriate comments and I simply state that I do not know if it illegal to draw with chalk on sidewalks in Ontario Canada.

However, if rouvis did not come to this forum asking ONLY for a specific answer to the question "Is it legal to draw with chalk on sidewalks?" (in Ontario Canada), then perhaps rouvis will gain something from the discussion. Perhaps not.
 

quincy

Senior Member
SIGH

I guess if rouvis wanted to limit the discussion to the question "Is it legal to draw with chalk on sidewalks?" (in Ontario Canada), and rouvis didn't want to have ANY discussion past that point, then I apologize for all of my inappropriate comments and I simply state that I do not know if it illegal to draw with chalk on sidewalks in Ontario Canada.

However, if rouvis did not come to this forum asking ONLY for a specific answer to the question "Is it legal to draw with chalk on sidewalks?"" (in Ontario Canada), then perhaps rouvis will gain something from the discussion. Perhaps not.
SIGH right back at you. ;)

There is no ONE law that addresses the legal concerns of rouvis. The laws on sidewalk chalking in the US depend on not only the state in the US in question but also on various city ordinances in the various US states. What has been found legal in one area of the country (based on free speech rights, for example) has been found illegal in another (under vandalism or graffiti laws among other laws).

I imagine the laws that vary from state to state in this country, and from city to city, will also vary depending on what part of the world you happen to reside. Is it legal in Canada to chalk sidewalks? Is it legal in Ontario to chalk sidewalks? Is it legal in Toronto to chalk sidewalks? Is it legal in England to chalk sidewalks? How about Liverpool? Israel? Jerusalem? Vietnam? Ho Chi Minh?

See how ridiculous the question posed by rouvis can get?

For your reading enjoyment, however, here is some information on Toronto and the licenses involved if you wish to be a busker, performer, or sidewalk chalk artist: http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=e37d8bee09724410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&vgnextchannel=b5336fd1f0724410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

Facts and particulars matter, in this area of the law as in all others.
 
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Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
What I said was that rouvis is not likely to find a law that specifically addresses chalk marks on public sidewalks. In point of fact, what I implied was that what he is thinking about doing is in fact probably illegal under some statute...
A little bit of a revisionist there Mark?

What you ACTUALLY said was:

There isn't going to be a law that makes it legal or illegal to mark locations on public sidewalks in chalk...
You didn't say it wasn't likely, you didn't imply that it was probably illegal. You stated that "there isn't going to be a law making it legal or illegal...".
 
A little bit of a revisionist there Mark?
What you ACTUALLY said was:
You didn't say it wasn't likely, you didn't imply that it was probably illegal. You stated that "there isn't going to be a law making it legal or illegal...".
Talk about revisionist. If you want to quote me directly, and you refuse to read the context, then at least quote the whole sentence. I said: "There isn't going to be a law that makes it legal or illegal to mark locations on public sidewalks in chalk, so the response that you receive to what you do will depend on what you do. If your marks are few, small, and only really noticeable to you, then it's not likely that there will be any response. If your marks cause a major disruption to other people or offend other people enough, then it's likely that someone will tell you to stop and if you don't then it's likely that someone will find some way to take some kind of legal action against you."

If someone asks if it was illegal to do cartwheels across the street, and someone responds that "There isn't going to be a law that makes it legal or illegal to do cartwheels across the street, so the response that you receive to what you do will depend on what you do", would you chastise the respondent because you think that they asserted that it cannot be illegal to do cartwheels across the street, or would you read the rest of the sentence, and perhaps even the following sentence?
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Talk about revisionist. If you want to quote me directly, and you refuse to read the context, then at least quote the whole sentence. I said: "There isn't going to be a law that makes it legal or illegal to mark locations on public sidewalks in chalk, so the response that you receive to what you do will depend on what you do. If your marks are few, small, and only really noticeable to you, then it's not likely that there will be any response. If your marks cause a major disruption to other people or offend other people enough, then it's likely that someone will tell you to stop and if you don't then it's likely that someone will find some way to take some kind of legal action against you."

If someone asks if it was illegal to do cartwheels across the street, and someone responds that "There isn't going to be a law that makes it legal or illegal to do cartwheels across the street, so the response that you receive to what you do will depend on what you do", would you chastise the respondent because you think that they asserted that it cannot be illegal to do cartwheels across the street, or would you read the rest of the sentence, and perhaps even the following sentence?


A problem is that there may very well be a law against it. You stated, unequivocally, that the OP won't find such a law. You then went on to say in a later post that what you meant was that it was context-specific. I understand and have no problem with the fact that you may have misspoken in your first post, but you should acknowledge that instead of trying to make it seem like you never said it in the first place.

ETA: I should also point out that what you are saying doesn't change whether or not something is legal. Whether or not a law is enforced relating to a specific act doesn't change the legality of the act in question. For example (and this one is easy): A police officer may be behind you while you are traveling 40 mph in a 35 mph zone. Whether or not the police officer decides to ticket you doesn't change the illegality of speeding.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
Talk about revisionist. If you want to quote me directly, and you refuse to read the context, then at least quote the whole sentence. I said: "There isn't going to be a law that makes it legal or illegal to mark locations on public sidewalks in chalk, so the response that you receive to what you do will depend on what you do. If your marks are few, small, and only really noticeable to you, then it's not likely that there will be any response. If your marks cause a major disruption to other people or offend other people enough, then it's likely that someone will tell you to stop and if you don't then it's likely that someone will find some way to take some kind of legal action against you."

If someone asks if it was illegal to do cartwheels across the street, and someone responds that "There isn't going to be a law that makes it legal or illegal to do cartwheels across the street, so the response that you receive to what you do will depend on what you do", would you chastise the respondent because you think that they asserted that it cannot be illegal to do cartwheels across the street, or would you read the rest of the sentence, and perhaps even the following sentence?
Even with all of your sentences in all of the posts read together, Mark, the statements you made are still incorrect.

There are laws that make it illegal to mark locations on public sidewalks in chalk. I provided an example of one such law in Toronto.

There are hundreds of other laws, if you consider the different laws in the different cities, townships, states, provinces and countries of the world. There is absolutely no way the general question asked by rouvis ("Is it legal ..." to make chalk marks on sidewalks?) can be answered with anything other than an "It depends" or a "Possibly."

The bottom line is that this forum addresses US law questions only. State names are required because US laws often vary between states in the U.S.

The original poster, rouvis, is from Ontario. Ontario is a province in Canada. For your continuing education, Mark, Canada is not a part of the US. ;)
 
SIGH right back at you. ;)

There is no ONE law that addresses the legal concerns of rouvis. The laws on sidewalk chalking in the US depend on not only the state in the US in question but also on various city ordinances in the various US states. What has been found legal in one area of the country (based on free speech rights, for example) has been found illegal in another (under vandalism or graffiti laws among other laws).

I imagine the laws that vary from state to state in this country, and from city to city, will also vary depending on what part of the world you happen to reside. Is it legal in Canada to chalk sidewalks? Is it legal in Ontario to chalk sidewalks? Is it legal in Toronto to chalk sidewalks? Is it legal in England to chalk sidewalks? How about Liverpool? Israel? Jerusalem? Vietnam? Ho Chi Minh?

See how ridiculous the question posed by rouvis can get?

For your reading enjoyment, however, here is some information on Toronto and the licenses involved if you wish to be a busker, performer, or sidewalk chalk artist: http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=e37d8bee09724410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&vgnextchannel=b5336fd1f0724410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

Facts and particulars matter, in this area of the law as in all others.
Again, if the original posters question is limited to "Is it legal to draw with chalk on sidewalks?", then I guess the only appropriate response is that the laws on this subject will vary from country to country, state to state, city to city, etcetera, and the facts and particulars matter (and we don't have enough information as to the specific city etcetera nor specific facts and particulars to answer definitively). Again, I am more than happy to agree with you on the obvious. I assume that such a response would be helpful to the original poster. But perhaps they were looking for more. Maybe rereading their original post would help:

"So I would like to use chalk to mark locations on public sidewalks, and such marks will not be permanent. Is it legal to do so? I understand that this forum is US-based, and ideas from other jurisdictions will be appreciated."

In a different post you commented that this subject (writing in chalk on public sidewalks) has come up in this forum before. Although you didn't specifically suggest it to the original poster, I suggest they follow up on your comment and search the forum for "chalk" to find some similar discussions.

I like your find about busker's in Toronto Canada. That might be a useful link for the original poster.
 
There are laws that make it illegal to mark locations on public sidewalks in chalk. I provided an example of one such law in Toronto.

The original poster, rouvis, is from Ontario. Ontario is a province in Canada. For your continuing education, Mark, Canada is not a part of the US. ;)
OMG. You must be kidding me. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS there very well could be a law applicable to wherever the original poster is in Ontario Canada that specifically prohibits writing in chalk on a public sidewalk. I am sorry if you felt that I implied that such a law did not exist or could not exist. Do you feel better now?

And once again, I have no problem agreeing with the obvious. Ontario is a province in Canada and Canada is not part of the US. But I am not sure why you felt compelled to point that out. Did anyone suggest that the original poster was not in Ontario Canada or that Ontario Canada was part of the US?
 

quincy

Senior Member
Again, if the original posters question is limited to "Is it legal to draw with chalk on sidewalks?", then I guess the only appropriate response is that the laws on this subject will vary from country to country, state to state, city to city, etcetera, and the facts and particulars matter (and we don't have enough information as to the specific city etcetera nor specific facts and particulars to answer definitively). Again, I am more than happy to agree with you on the obvious. I assume that such a response would be helpful to the original poster. But perhaps they were looking for more. Maybe rereading their original post would help:

"So I would like to use chalk to mark locations on public sidewalks, and such marks will not be permanent. Is it legal to do so? I understand that this forum is US-based, and ideas from other jurisdictions will be appreciated."

In a different post you commented that this subject (writing in chalk on public sidewalks) has come up in this forum before. Although you didn't specifically suggest it to the original poster, I suggest they follow up on your comment and search the forum for "chalk" to find some similar discussions.

I like your find about busker's in Toronto Canada. That might be a useful link for the original poster.
The permits required in Toronto for buskers, performers and sidewalk chalk artists may not have any relevance to rouvis at all. Toronto is just one city in Ontario. And Ontario is just one province in Canada. And Canada is just one country in the world. And there are many other countries and cities in the world with their own laws and rules and regulations.

And rouvis may be a surveyor instead of a busker, performer or sidewalk chalk artist. The laws cover these professions differently.

As far as looking at the earlier threads on this forum, rouvis is certainly welcome to do that (as long as he does not get the urge to post to one of the archived threads ;)), but the threads are not from 2014 and laws as you know can change over time, often in significant ways.

If you are interested in world "chalking laws," though, you might want to start your research on the laws of graffiti by looking at the laws in Australia. Some sidewalk chalking laws from 2013 recently changed again in 2014. You can also research the laws in the cities I mentioned earlier, to see how sidewalk chalking (graffiti) is handled differently. I mentioned those particular locations for a reason.

But you need to expand your research to include not only chalk artists but all other professions that may need to use or want to use chalk to mark sidewalks. You might also want to include in your research children and their hopscotch grids and drawings. And again, based on rouvis' question, you will need to research every area of the world.

Geez, Mark. Certainly you can recognize that the general nature of rouvis' question cannot be answered except in a very very general way (as in the "it depends" answer previously supplied) - and this only if we entertained questions from Canadian posters on this forum (which we typically don't).
 

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