Reading-the-Law Programs

[Paul84]

I recently learned that a few states, such as California, still allow one to take the bar exam without having gone to law school if the applicant has "read the law" under the tutelage of either a judge or attorney for a set period of time--4 years in California, for instance. Have any of you ever heard of such programs occurring remotely via the Internet? Nowadays with so much information available online, it would seem feasible to do.

 

[justalayman]

such a program cannot be done remotely. It is a "program" available to those working in the industry where they are exposed to the industry. You can think of it as on the job training.

 

[TigerD]

There are a number of programs like that. NY has one where the student does two years in law school and two years in practice.

But, the legal industry is very conservative in licensing. If you are interested in working outside of California, think very carefully about an ABA school. Also, whether they passed the bar or not, I think there would be some prejudice against lawyers that failed to attend law school. <-- see just like that.

DC

 

[Paul84]

There are a number of programs like that. NY has one where the student does two years in law school and two years in practice.

But, the legal industry is very conservative in licensing. If you are interested in working outside of California, think very carefully about an ABA school. Also, whether they passed the bar or not, I think there would be some prejudice against lawyers that failed to attend law school. <-- see just like that.

DC

Thanks for your comments. As a pro-se litigant, involved for many months in complex litigation in federal district court, I'm getting lots of practical training, all done remotely. For briefs in my case, I have had to research a wide variety of practice areas and actually enjoy both the research and writing of the legal arguments. However, I live abroad and physically could not attend a U.S. law school, nor would I want to pay the expense.

Was interested to see that as late as 1941, James F. Byrnes, who read the law without attending law school (or even high school) became a U.S. Supreme Court Justice. And the self-read lawyer, Abraham Lincoln, once gave the following advice: "If you are resolutely determined to make a lawyer of yourself, the thing is more than half done already. It is but a small matter whether you read with any body or not. I did not read with any one. Get the books, and read and study them till, you understand them in their principal features; and that is the main thing."

 

[justalayman]

I do not believe being a licensed lawyer is a pre-requisite to be nominated for the Supreme Court.

an excerpt from Wikipedia:

He later apprenticed to a lawyer – a not uncommon practice then – read for the law, and was admitted to the bar in 1903

There's that on the job training I was speaking of.

 

[Mass_Shyster]

I recently learned that a few states, such as California, still allow one to take the bar exam without having gone to law school if the applicant has "read the law" under the tutelage of either a judge or attorney for a set period of time--4 years in California, for instance. Have any of you ever heard of such programs occurring remotely via the Internet? Nowadays with so much information available online, it would seem feasible to do.

I believe the Concord School of Law, run by Kaplan, is completely online and allows you to take the California bar.

 

[justalayman]

I believe the Concord School of Law, run by Kaplan, is completely online and allows you to take the California bar.

This guy has asked this question in another thread here and at another forum I view. He has stated he has no intention of attending school as it costs money and he does not believe it would be worth the cost. (btw: he claims to be a millionaire). He also does not feel he should have to be under the direction of anybody since he has been a CEO of some company and (my interpretation anyway) it is beneath him to have to take directives from somebody else.

 

[Paul84]

I believe the Concord School of Law, run by Kaplan, is completely online and allows you to take the California bar.

Thanks, Steve. You continue to be helpful.

Yes, California seems the most attractive and, possibly, only option in its having both read-the-law programs and online law schools, as well as being a nice place to settle in one day. Was just wondering whether it's possible to combine the mechanisms into a remote, read-the-law endeavor.

 

[Mass_Shyster]

he does not believe it would be worth the cost.

I agree with him.

 

[TigerD]

From the California Bar Association website:

The following institutions are currently registered by the Committee of Bar Examiners of the State Bar of California as unaccredited distance-learning law schools. A distance-learning law school is a law school that conducts instruction and provides interactive classes principally by technological means. A distance-learning law school must require at least 864 hours of preparation and study per year for four years.
Abraham Lincoln University
School of Law
3530 Wilshire Blvd, #1435
Los Angeles, CA 90010
(866) 558-0999
www.alu.edu

Concord Law School of Kaplan University
10866 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1200
Los Angeles, CA 90024
(800) 439-4794
www.concordlawschool.edu

American Heritage University
School of Law and Public Policy
255 North D Street, Suite 401
San Bernadino, CA 92401-1715
(888) 484-8689
www.amheritageuniv.net

St. Francis School of Law
1733 Woodside Road, #230
Redwood City, CA 94061
(650) 206-9529
www.stfrancislaw.com

California School of Law
5276 Hollister Ave, #262
Santa Barbara, CA 93111
(805) 683-5337 and
(866) 970-4529
www.californiaschooloflaw.com

I would strongly encourage you to check out the bar passage rates for students of those schools.

I recently read that the California School of Law had a bar failure rate about 93 percent. Overall, distance learning law schools in California seem to average an extremely low bar passage rate.

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/08/this-law-school-doesnt-want-people-to-know-its-grads-fail-the-bar-exam-93-percent-of-the-time/
http://abovethelaw.com/2012/11/california-bar-exam-results-are-out-congratulations-to-everyone-who-passed/

As a comparison, my law school has an average first time pass rate of about 97 percent.

 

[Paul84]

From the California Bar Association website:

The following institutions are currently registered by the Committee of Bar Examiners of the State Bar of California as unaccredited distance-learning law schools. A distance-learning law school is a law school that conducts instruction and provides interactive classes principally by technological means. A distance-learning law school must require at least 864 hours of preparation and study per year for four years.
Abraham Lincoln University
School of Law
3530 Wilshire Blvd, #1435
Los Angeles, CA 90010
(866) 558-0999
www.alu.edu

Concord Law School of Kaplan University
10866 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1200
Los Angeles, CA 90024
(800) 439-4794
www.concordlawschool.edu

American Heritage University
School of Law and Public Policy
255 North D Street, Suite 401
San Bernadino, CA 92401-1715
(888) 484-8689
www.amheritageuniv.net

St. Francis School of Law
1733 Woodside Road, #230
Redwood City, CA 94061
(650) 206-9529
www.stfrancislaw.com

California School of Law
5276 Hollister Ave, #262
Santa Barbara, CA 93111
(805) 683-5337 and
(866) 970-4529
www.californiaschooloflaw.com

I would strongly encourage you to check out the bar passage rates for students of those schools.

I recently read that the California School of Law had a bar failure rate about 93 percent. Overall, distance learning law schools in California seem to average an extremely low bar passage rate.

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/08/this-law-school-doesnt-want-people-to-know-its-grads-fail-the-bar-exam-93-percent-of-the-time/
http://abovethelaw.com/2012/11/california-bar-exam-results-are-out-congratulations-to-everyone-who-passed/

As a comparison, my law school has an average first time pass rate of about 97 percent.

Thanks for finding that. I recently saw a study that, even with more liberal standards for pleadings, only about 15% of pro se litigants nowadays survive a motion to dismiss. So I'm used to, and comfortable with, long odds

 

[Mass_Shyster]

As a comparison, my law school has an average first time pass rate of about 97 percent.

There's a list at http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/gbx/JULY2012STATS.122112_R.pdf

This even has a category for "Law Office/Judges’ Chambers", which I guess is people doing what OP is discussing. The passing rate is zero for first-time and repeat takers.

 

[Paul84]

There's a list at http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/gbx/JULY2012STATS.122112_R.pdf

This even has a category for "Law Office/Judges&#8217; Chambers", which I guess is people doing what OP is discussing. The passing rate is zero for first-time and repeat takers.

Am surprised that the sample size in that category was only 3 persons out of over 8,700 who took the exam. Presumably, judges and attorneys are generally unwilling to take on the added (pro bono) work of supervising such students.

 

[tranquility]

You'd be surprised at how little of the Bar testing would be helped by, "many months in complex litigation in federal district court, I'm getting lots of practical training,". In fact, that is one of the complaints of the testing scheme.

 

[Paul84]

You'd be surprised at how little of the Bar testing would be helped by, "many months in complex litigation in federal district court, I'm getting lots of practical training,". In fact, that is one of the complaints of the testing scheme.

After reading the following article (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/22/us/law-scholarships-lackluster-reviews.html) and links in it, I'm a bit concerned that the magistrate's clerk handling my case will ghostwrite much or most of the magistrate's recommendation. I've heard that some top judges, such as Richard Posner, write all their own opinions but that others rely on the clerks to varying degrees.

Although the magistrate and the district judge, in particular, have impressive academic credentials and international case experience, the magistrate's clerk does not seem to share those. Am not sure who the assigned district judge's clerk is. Would these two clerks work in tandem, or unless I raise any objections to the magistrate's still-pending decision, would the district judge's clerk not get involved?