Discrimination Against Fisherman

[SilverOrange]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

I have a complicated question, so I am going to outline a scenario that I can see happening.

I go fishing at the beach. I get up early, 4am, I get there at 5am, when it is still dark. There is nobody on the beach, it is just now the crack of dawn (which means the beach is open, some beaches close at sundown.) I choose a relatively low traffic area of the beach. I set up my sun canopy, lug some coolers over for bait/refreshments, set out some chairs. I usually fish with my wife and her family. I cast my rods out into the water, and start hanging out on the sand, under the high water line, mind you (1. Reference) A couple of hours pass, I get some fish, maybe small maybe not, not fishing for anything in particular. Then a person who absolutely hates fisherman and anybody that eats meat sees me. They call the police on me, because what I am doing although legal is absolutely wrong! The officer or beach patrol officer that arrives also despises fisherman, maybe because he has had a bad experience with them leaving trash, dead fish, etc, on the beach. I don't do that, I always make sure it is exactly it was when I got there. The officer tells me and my family to leave. What do I do?

There is one regulation that protects me, and also I am on state lands, since I am under the high water land.

"379.105 Harassment of hunters, trappers, or fishers.
(1) A person may not intentionally, within a publicly or privately owned wildlife management or fish management area or on any state-owned water body:
(a) Interfere with or attempt to prevent the lawful taking of fish, game, or nongame animals by another.
(b) Attempt to disturb fish, game, or nongame animals or attempt to affect their behavior with the intent to prevent their lawful taking by another.
(2) Any person who violates this section commits a Level Two violation under s. 379.401."

What can I say to the officer to tell him, I am here legally, without getting arrested for not listening to him? I have had an encounter eerily close to this in the past, and police seem to think that their word is law. I am 21, married, college graduate, I am not some bum fishing on the beach. The officer can claim I am disturbing the peace, how do I prove that I am not? Do I need to video tape every single second of me being on the beach, because I will if that is what it takes. It really makes me mad people can discriminate against fisherman like this. I am relaxing, enjoying a nice day, doing absolutely nothing wrong, and because one person doesn't agree with what I am doing I can get kicked off of public land? I asked the Florida Wildlife Commission, and they said

"Mr. Name: FWC regulations do not prohibit shark fishing from the beach anywhere in Florida. At least two counties (Volusia and Walton) currently have ordinances that prohibit shark fishing and chumming from the beach and other municipalities are being pressured to establish restrictions. Shark fishing from the beach, while legal in almost all places, is viewed negatively by many and there are lots of people out there that would like to see shark fishing and chumming from the beach prohibited. I do not share their views, but I do suggest that shark anglers do what they can to avoid making this a big issue. In other words, dont run shark lines out when swimmers are present. If this means finding a secluded beach or fishing at night, I think that is a good choice."

when I asked them about me shark fishing from the beach. I participate in a program ran by NOAA called the Apex Predator Program where I tag and release sharks. I don't only fish for sharks, if I get one I get one. I would rather get a tarpon to be honest.

So, what can I do? I am going to print off every single one off the laws I can find supporting me, have them laminated, along with FWC's response to my question. Is there any more I can do? I really don't like this situation, being totally legal and yet still being discriminated against.


(1. Reference) SECTION 11. Sovereignty lands.�The title to lands under navigable waters, within the boundaries of the state, which have not been alienated, including beaches below mean high water lines, is held by the state, by virtue of its sovereignty, in trust for all the people. Sale of such lands may be authorized by law, but only when in the public interest. Private use of portions of such lands may be authorized by law, but only when not contrary to the public interest.

 

[Proserpina]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

I have a complicated question, so I am going to outline a scenario that I can see happening.

I go fishing at the beach. I get up early, 4am, I get there at 5am, when it is still dark. There is nobody on the beach, it is just now the crack of dawn (which means the beach is open, some beaches close at sundown.) I choose a relatively low traffic area of the beach. I set up my sun canopy, lug some coolers over for bait/refreshments, set out some chairs. I usually fish with my wife and her family. I cast my rods out into the water, and start hanging out on the sand, under the high water line, mind you (1. Reference) A couple of hours pass, I get some fish, maybe small maybe not, not fishing for anything in particular. Then a person who absolutely hates fisherman and anybody that eats meat sees me. They call the police on me, because what I am doing although legal is absolutely wrong! The officer or beach patrol officer that arrives also despises fisherman, maybe because he has had a bad experience with them leaving trash, dead fish, etc, on the beach. I don't do that, I always make sure it is exactly it was when I got there. The officer tells me and my family to leave. What do I do?

There is one regulation that protects me, and also I am on state lands, since I am under the high water land.

"379.105 Harassment of hunters, trappers, or fishers.
(1) A person may not intentionally, within a publicly or privately owned wildlife management or fish management area or on any state-owned water body:
(a) Interfere with or attempt to prevent the lawful taking of fish, game, or nongame animals by another.
(b) Attempt to disturb fish, game, or nongame animals or attempt to affect their behavior with the intent to prevent their lawful taking by another.
(2) Any person who violates this section commits a Level Two violation under s. 379.401."

What can I say to the officer to tell him, I am here legally, without getting arrested for not listening to him? I have had an encounter eerily close to this in the past, and police seem to think that their word is law. I am 21, married, college graduate, I am not some bum fishing on the beach. The officer can claim I am disturbing the peace, how do I prove that I am not? Do I need to video tape every single second of me being on the beach, because I will if that is what it takes. It really makes me mad people can discriminate against fisherman like this. I am relaxing, enjoying a nice day, doing absolutely nothing wrong, and because one person doesn't agree with what I am doing I can get kicked off of public land? I asked the Florida Wildlife Commission, and they said

"Mr. Name: FWC regulations do not prohibit shark fishing from the beach anywhere in Florida. At least two counties (Volusia and Walton) currently have ordinances that prohibit shark fishing and chumming from the beach and other municipalities are being pressured to establish restrictions. Shark fishing from the beach, while legal in almost all places, is viewed negatively by many and there are lots of people out there that would like to see shark fishing and chumming from the beach prohibited. I do not share their views, but I do suggest that shark anglers do what they can to avoid making this a big issue. In other words, dont run shark lines out when swimmers are present. If this means finding a secluded beach or fishing at night, I think that is a good choice."

when I asked them about me shark fishing from the beach. I participate in a program ran by NOAA called the Apex Predator Program where I tag and release sharks. I don't only fish for sharks, if I get one I get one. I would rather get a tarpon to be honest.

So, what can I do? I am going to print off every single one off the laws I can find supporting me, have them laminated, along with FWC's response to my question. Is there any more I can do? I really don't like this situation, being totally legal and yet still being discriminated against.


(1. Reference) SECTION 11. Sovereignty lands.�The title to lands under navigable waters, within the boundaries of the state, which have not been alienated, including beaches below mean high water lines, is held by the state, by virtue of its sovereignty, in trust for all the people. Sale of such lands may be authorized by law, but only when in the public interest. Private use of portions of such lands may be authorized by law, but only when not contrary to the public interest.

Fishermen are not a protected class.

Sorry.

 

[SilverOrange]

I am not looking for a lawsuit or anything like that, I just meant discrimination based on its actual definition, I know we aren't a race, gender, or a class, it doesn't change the fact that we have been discriminated against. Not legally, but still. I just want to know what I can do to prevent this from happening, but now that I think of it more I think I am already doing all that I can do.

Thanks.

 

[quincy]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

I have a complicated question, so I am going to outline a scenario that I can see happening.

I go fishing at the beach. I get up early, 4am, I get there at 5am, when it is still dark. There is nobody on the beach, it is just now the crack of dawn (which means the beach is open, some beaches close at sundown.) I choose a relatively low traffic area of the beach. I set up my sun canopy, lug some coolers over for bait/refreshments, set out some chairs. I usually fish with my wife and her family. I cast my rods out into the water, and start hanging out on the sand, under the high water line, mind you (1. Reference) A couple of hours pass, I get some fish, maybe small maybe not, not fishing for anything in particular. Then a person who absolutely hates fisherman and anybody that eats meat sees me. They call the police on me, because what I am doing although legal is absolutely wrong! The officer or beach patrol officer that arrives also despises fisherman, maybe because he has had a bad experience with them leaving trash, dead fish, etc, on the beach. I don't do that, I always make sure it is exactly it was when I got there. The officer tells me and my family to leave. What do I do?

There is one regulation that protects me, and also I am on state lands, since I am under the high water land.

"379.105 Harassment of hunters, trappers, or fishers.
(1) A person may not intentionally, within a publicly or privately owned wildlife management or fish management area or on any state-owned water body:
(a) Interfere with or attempt to prevent the lawful taking of fish, game, or nongame animals by another.
(b) Attempt to disturb fish, game, or nongame animals or attempt to affect their behavior with the intent to prevent their lawful taking by another.
(2) Any person who violates this section commits a Level Two violation under s. 379.401."

What can I say to the officer to tell him, I am here legally, without getting arrested for not listening to him? I have had an encounter eerily close to this in the past, and police seem to think that their word is law. I am 21, married, college graduate, I am not some bum fishing on the beach. The officer can claim I am disturbing the peace, how do I prove that I am not? Do I need to video tape every single second of me being on the beach, because I will if that is what it takes. It really makes me mad people can discriminate against fisherman like this. I am relaxing, enjoying a nice day, doing absolutely nothing wrong, and because one person doesn't agree with what I am doing I can get kicked off of public land? I asked the Florida Wildlife Commission, and they said

"Mr. Name: FWC regulations do not prohibit shark fishing from the beach anywhere in Florida. At least two counties (Volusia and Walton) currently have ordinances that prohibit shark fishing and chumming from the beach and other municipalities are being pressured to establish restrictions. Shark fishing from the beach, while legal in almost all places, is viewed negatively by many and there are lots of people out there that would like to see shark fishing and chumming from the beach prohibited. I do not share their views, but I do suggest that shark anglers do what they can to avoid making this a big issue. In other words, dont run shark lines out when swimmers are present. If this means finding a secluded beach or fishing at night, I think that is a good choice."

when I asked them about me shark fishing from the beach. I participate in a program ran by NOAA called the Apex Predator Program where I tag and release sharks. I don't only fish for sharks, if I get one I get one. I would rather get a tarpon to be honest.

So, what can I do? I am going to print off every single one off the laws I can find supporting me, have them laminated, along with FWC's response to my question. Is there any more I can do? I really don't like this situation, being totally legal and yet still being discriminated against.


(1. Reference) SECTION 11. Sovereignty lands.�The title to lands under navigable waters, within the boundaries of the state, which have not been alienated, including beaches below mean high water lines, is held by the state, by virtue of its sovereignty, in trust for all the people. Sale of such lands may be authorized by law, but only when in the public interest. Private use of portions of such lands may be authorized by law, but only when not contrary to the public interest.

Your idea to print off the relevant Florida laws that support your right to fish for sharks from public beaches is one way to address any officer who approaches you and questions your right to fish. Being civil is the best way to keep from being arrested for disorderly conduct.

However, I imagine that the need to keep the public beachgoers/swimmers safe from sharks can override your right to fish, which is probably why you are finding counties in Florida passing ordinances prohibiting shark fishing and chumming in areas where people swim.

The Florida Wildlife Commission offered you good suggestions. You might want to take them.

At any rate, I doubt if you have any legal action to take against anyone who reports you or the officers who question your fishing, if that is your reason for visiting the forum.

 

[cbg]

Do you understand that most discrimination is perfectly legal? If it's not on the basis of a characteristic protected by law, it's not illegal.

Being a fisherman is not a characteristic protected by law.

 

[tranquility]

While "discrimination" may not be the right phraseology, it seems the statute gives some protection to some things. I don't really understand what it means and would need to spend way more time than it is worth to me to read up on the cases and thoughts on the matter so will not offer guidance. However, this does not seem so much a "discrimination" issue, but a violation of the statute issue.

 

[quincy]

Like you, tranquility, I am not of the mind right now to search for pertinent cases (if any exist) but here is a link to Florida's Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission website that has additional information on shark fishing in Florida: http://myfwc.com/fishing/saltwater/recreational/sharks/

As an additional note, I did not verify any of the information provided by SilverOrange and am just trusting that what he has posted is accurate.

 

[SilverOrange]

Looking back I could have probably chosen a better word than discrimination. Thank you all for your help though, it is much appreciated. I am not too concerned, I think that even if a officer does show up, I can show him my licenses, the regulations supporting me, etc., and I will probably be fine.

 

[quincy]

Looking back I could have probably chosen a better word than discrimination. Thank you all for your help though, it is much appreciated. I am not too concerned, I think that even if a officer does show up, I can show him my licenses, the regulations supporting me, etc., and I will probably be fine.

Discrimination is a good word to choose if there is disparate treatment between two or more individuals or two or more groups.

Because as a fisherman you have experienced only one encounter with an officer in the past that was semi-similar to what you are asking about here, though, I would not be overly concerned about arrests in the future. As long as you are on one of the beaches that allows for shark fishing and you are armed with the applicable laws and you are properly licensed and you do not create a disturbance, you should, as you say, be fine.

 

[justalayman]

I would suggest starting a non-adversarial conversation with the cop. Ask him the basis for his demands. Maybe there is something you are missing. Maybe he really is just being a jerk but since he is the one ordering you to leave, the best source of why would be him (Or her if it is a female).

I would not whip out statutes as a first line of defense. That simply sets you up for an argument that you will likely lose.


if the cop says; because I say so; obviously without cause it is not a valid demand. I would still suggest complying and addressing his command for clarification of why he made the demand

if he says; because the law says so, then ask him what law. Now is where you can gently introduce your proofs. I would suggest something like:

I thought I had this figured out. Nothing I have found says what I am doing is unlawful, In fact, one of the laws I found says that those that act in certain ways to disturb my fishing are actually the party acting unlawfully. So, what I am missing in the law. While I enjoy what I am doing, I surely do not want to run afoul of the law so if you could help me figure out what I need to change here to comply with the laws, I sure would appreciate it.


at that point you will either be informed of a law, simply told to get off the beach, or watch a pissed off cop walk away. Comply with any demands and follow up with his command as previously mentioned.

 

[Proserpina]

Discrimination is a good word to choose if there is disparate treatment between two or more individuals or two or more groups.

Because as a fisherman you have experienced only one encounter with an officer in the past that was semi-similar to what you are asking about here, though, I would not be overly concerned about arrests in the future. As long as you are on one of the beaches that allows for shark fishing and you are armed with the applicable laws and you are properly licensed and you do not create a disturbance, you should, as you say, be fine.

(If I can just add please?)

Discrimination is appropriate, yes. But there's a distinction between legal and illegal discrimination (and that's where the protected classes come into play). Unfortunately, most discrimination is legal.

 

[quincy]

(If I can just add please?)

Discrimination is appropriate, yes. But there's a distinction between legal and illegal discrimination (and that's where the protected classes come into play). Unfortunately, most discrimination is legal.

Thank you for saying "please," Proserpina.

I made the comment I did because there is an English language as well as a "legal" language. Most people who come to this forum are familiar with the first and not so familiar with the second (or are confused by the difference between one and the other).

If singled out and treated differently because he was a fisherman among beachgoers, SilverOrange was being discriminated against, so his use of the word discrimination was the proper English word for SilverOrange to use. In fact, I can't offhand think of a better one.

But, as you said early on, fishermen are not a protected class under discrimination laws. . . . . . . . yet, at any rate.