Our managment co. not getting permits for construction work

[Darrell1338]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California .

Hello all,

I live in a small ( 75 unit ) condo complex in Ventura County California and am president of our HOA. I recently discovered that most ( if not all ) of the water heaters in our community laundry rooms have been installed without permits. ( whenever one needs replaced we call our property management company and they hire one of our "approved" contractors to do the work ).

When I approached our management company about this the woman who handles our HOA became very defensive and claimed she has always counted on the companies to get the required permits and was shocked they had not. I find this very hard to believe. I spoke with a friend who is a insurance broker and he told me if something were to happen our insurance might not cover us and one of the first things a insurance investigator would look at would be proper permitting.

Our manager is now trying to make this all seem like "our problem" .

Any thoughts as to what I should do?

Thanks in advance!

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California .

Hello all,

I live in a small ( 75 unit ) condo complex in Ventura County California and am president of our HOA. I recently discovered that most ( if not all ) of the water heaters in our community laundry rooms have been installed without permits. ( whenever one needs replaced we call our property management company and they hire one of our "approved" contractors to do the work ).

When I approached our management company about this the woman who handles our HOA became very defensive and claimed she has always counted on the companies to get the required permits and was shocked they had not. I find this very hard to believe. I spoke with a friend who is a insurance broker and he told me if something were to happen our insurance might not cover us and one of the first things a insurance investigator would look at would be proper permitting.

Our manager is now trying to make this all seem like "our problem" .

Any thoughts as to what I should do?

Thanks in advance!

Are you sure that permits are needed to replace water heaters? The very well could be needed but its also possible that they are not needed at all. How did this matter come to your attention?

 

[justalayman]

Are you sure that permits are needed to replace water heaters? The very well could be needed but its also possible that they are not needed at all. How did this matter come to your attention?

Permits are required in any area I'm familiar with. There are some very stringent code requirements relating to water heaters.



I don't know the contract between the hoa and the management company but I suspect it requires that if they hire out work it must meet codes and ordinances. To me that means they ensure the work is performed legally.

Then, review the contracts signed with the various plumbers to determine if it is mentioned in those contracts who is to apply for a permit. In most work I've seen the contractor pulls the permit but there are contractors that try to put this on the customer. It should not be the responsibility of the customer. generally the contractor pulls the permits and has all of the inspections done as part of their contract.

If permits have not been pulled and the work inspected you could be in s real pickle. It can get very expensive if permits are not pulled when reauired.

So after you check out the contracts you find out if permits were actuslly pulled.

If not you have to determine where the fault lies: the contractor or the management company. If the contractor was required to pull a permit and didn't you would have to chase each individual contractor for whatever non-permitted situations they each caused.

If the requirement for the permit was in the customer, then the management company is culpable and should be liable for fixing the situation.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

I would not be so fast to blame everyone else. Ultimately the HOA is responsible. If you establish a poor repair chain, that results in code violations, that is your fault. In the future, you should require a liaison with the contractor and verification of the permit. You should also go back through your records and have any repairs not permitted inspected and corrected with the city.

 

[LdiJ]

Unless there is some seriously streamlined process in my area permits are not needed. I got my last water heater installed within hours of the old one biting the dust.

 

[STEPHAN]

Unless there is some seriously streamlined process in my area permits are not needed. I got my last water heater installed within hours of the old one biting the dust.

In CA permits for water heater replacements are required per code.

 

[Darrell1338]

yes, permits for water heaters are required in our town. Thanks for all of the advice ! I will ask for and review the contracts and see what I can find out. I guess what I find hard to believe is that our management company claims they never knew about this and are blaming it all on the various contractors. After all, permit is a additional expense that would be added to a invoice. At this point I find it ( at the least ) highly unprofessional that they would just claim ignorance and try to "pass the buck".

Several months ago our local code enforcement stopped by and cited over 20 homeowners on our street for installing windows without permits. What a mess this created! Each homeowner had to obtain permission from our management company before installing them. I would think that one of the first things they would be told would be to make sure to get the proper permits and inspections but they were never told a thing.

I am now wondering what other construction work may have been done improperly. I feel I cannot trust our management company to do the right thing.

 

[STEPHAN]

My contractors do NOT list the permit fees as an extra expense.

 

[justalayman]

My contractors do NOT list the permit fees as an extra expense.

I have seen it both ways and that is why it is important to include the requirement to obtain a permit be in the contract assigned to somebody. It should be the contractors obligation. Most of the contractors that require rhe owner to pull a permit are, well let's just say, a bit less above board than others.

 

[justalayman]

Unless there is some seriously streamlined process in my area permits are not needed. I got my last water heater installed within hours of the old one biting the dust.

I know you're a Hoosier but no idea where so I grabbed Indianapolis code. This is what it says to water heaters

Replacement of a water heater with one (1) that is identical as to venting arrangement and type of fuel or energy input;

So if the type of water heater (gas to gas (with no change in the venting system), electric to electric) matches the original then no permit required.

Understand that applies to one and two family residences. When you are dealing with 3 or more family buildings or common buildings the rules are different.

Op is in California (where the laws are more stringent regarding buildings) and op is speaking of water heaters in a common laundry room.

 

[LdiJ]

I know you're a Hoosier but no idea where so I grabbed Indianapolis code. This is what it says to water heaters

Replacement of a water heater with one (1) that is identical as to venting arrangement and type of fuel or energy input;

So if the type of water heater (gas to gas (with no change in the venting system), electric to electric) matches the original then no permit required.

Understand that applies to one and two family residences. When you are dealing with 3 or more family buildings or common buildings the rules are different.

Op is in California (where the laws are more stringent regarding buildings) and op is speaking of water heaters in a common laundry room.

I am in Indianapolis...so that makes sense. Mine was a straight replacement, no changes other than it is more energy efficient than the old one was.

 

[FlyingRon]

Permits are required in any area I'm familiar with. There are some very stringent code requirements relating to water heaters.

Around here electric water heaters that are merely replacements don't need permits. However, if you want to limit it to California, I don't believe there's any place in the state that indeed will let you do HVAC or Water Heater replacement sans permit.

Frankly, in addition to issues with your property (insurance and potential future sales and inspection issues), I would certainly report the contractor who says he doesn't need permits to the contractor license regulators (California has the CSLB). Are you 100% sure permits weren't indeed pulled. It's done online frequently (and you in some jurisdictions can check for them online). A permit doesn't necessarily mean an inspector will come to sign it off.

 

[FarmerJ]

Darrell even though its ten days later , food for thought, ill lay odds that this management firm may have used its own maintenance staff to do some work where a permit may have actually been required, I remember when I used to work for a property management company being told I had to do certain things that I knew full well should have been done by licensed people, I needed the job back then and didn't argue. ( this was almost 30 yrs ago and I can see some firms still doing this using the argument that they are saving the clients they have money or at the other end of it charging high fees to push profits up )

 

[birdbrain53]

I'm in CA, used to be on an HOA board. I also have had water heaters replaced personally in my HOA townhouse.

Permits are required for water heater replacements in California. It is against the law to replace one without a permit.
Water heaters must be strapped according to code because of earthquakes.
There are also requirements for distance to enclosing walls, etc.
See CA Code: http://www.iapmo.org/2010%20California%20Plumbing%20Code/Chapter%2005.pdf

The HOA management company should know this. I would fire them for incompetence. HOA boards rely on management companies for their experience, expertise, and knowledge.

Get copies of all the invoices for the water heaters that were replaced. You may also want to audit the management company's other repair jobs, just in case.

The HOA will have to suck it up and replace the water heaters using a plumbing company, not handymen hired by the HOA management company. Whether or not you can recover some of the cost to do so from the management company can best be explained by a lawyer. Call your local Bar Association for a list of real estate lawyers, research who has a good reputation for HOA law, and call them very soon.

Good luck.

 

[Zigner]

Permits are required for water heater replacements in California. It is against the law to replace one without a permit.

Cite please.