C
Chris S. Cunnin
Guest
What is the name of your state? Arizona.
I have two closely related issues I’d like to resolve with my neighbor. First is obtaining a written, signed joint sewer use agreement and the second is a fence that looks to be located three feet into our property.
My wife and I just paid cash for a small, old house needing a complete remodeling on a typical urban lot. The existing sewer exits my yard and passes through my neighbor’s property before joining up with the city sewer in the alley (this is typical with many older homes in this area). There is no recorded joint use agreement on file with the city, but there is document I found on file at the city sewer office indicating that the sewer was replaced in 1948 and clearly shows both my property and my neighbor’s property sharing the same sewer.
Prior to us buying the property, ownership of our lot has not changed for sixty years. My neighbor has owned his house for ten years. When we asked him for permission to replace my sewer up the joint in his yard, he said okay. My next step is when the problem began. We needed a permit to do the work on our sewer. When I went to get approval and a permit from the city for the work to be done on our property and on his property, they wanted to see to a signed joint sewer agreement from my neighbor before ANY permits were pulled for our house. My neighbor refused to sign anything. My wife and I plan on selling the house after the remodeling is complete and would sleep a lot easier if we had a recorded agreement to pass on to the new owners. Without written permission from my neighbor, we can not do anything in his yard. According to a licensed experienced plumber, the sewer should be placed now when we replace the existing pipes during the remodel. In addition, the clay pipes were cracked and roots were present when I dug up the sewer on my side of the fence. To make matters worse, he has planted a tree directly over the joint where our pipes meet in his yard and more trees above the sewer path as it makes its way to the alley. This worries me.
My question is this: can the document, dating from 1948 showing the existing sewer and naming both prior property owners, be construed as a joint agreement? It is a description of the work that a plumbing company did in 1948. Can I record this in lieu of a new agreement signed by my neighbor?
Obviously, I could forget the whole matter and not replace the pipe after it exits my yard. This would allow me to pull permits for the remodel, but this would be similar to rebuilding a car’s engine and then using the old crankcase oil for lubrication. The issue might also come up when we’re selling the house and cause problems. Without a signed agreement, can the neighbor willingly cut us off from the sewer?
The second part was discovered when digging up the old sewer pipes. My plumber was complaining of the tight (3 feet) space he had to work with between our house and the neighbor’s fence to replace our existing sewer pipes. Then we noticed that our cleanout was located directly under the fence, actually in my neighbor’s property. This was wrong and prompted me to measure the width of our lot. I went to the city, obtained current maps and using monuments located nearby, measured with a metal tape measure the distance of each property across the block. This was easy because there are only three lots, with ours being in the middle. The first lot was accurate and corresponded to the measurements on the map. The second, ours, was three feet short if measured to the neighbor’s fence. Then I measured the neighbor’s lot from the middle of the street
and found that their lot was the correct width too, however, their fence could easily have been placed incorrectly back in the late 60s or early 70s when it was installed.
We would like to clear this up, but realize we need to pay a lot of money to a surveyor to survey the property. Before we pay for a survey we would like to know if we have a leg to stand on regarding my neighbor’s potential adverse possession of three feet of our property (150 square feet total). In addition to the fence there is a small tin shed next to the fence.
We really do not want the added expense of paying for survey or moving the fence if we can only accomplish our remodeling safely and to code under the existing conditions. We would like to resolve these issues, but find it difficult when the neighbor is unwilling. If it is determined that his fence is on our property, we do not mind giving him permission to use it for the fence and shed in exchange for a signed joint sewer agreement. Is that legal?
Sincerely, Chris in Tucson
I have two closely related issues I’d like to resolve with my neighbor. First is obtaining a written, signed joint sewer use agreement and the second is a fence that looks to be located three feet into our property.
My wife and I just paid cash for a small, old house needing a complete remodeling on a typical urban lot. The existing sewer exits my yard and passes through my neighbor’s property before joining up with the city sewer in the alley (this is typical with many older homes in this area). There is no recorded joint use agreement on file with the city, but there is document I found on file at the city sewer office indicating that the sewer was replaced in 1948 and clearly shows both my property and my neighbor’s property sharing the same sewer.
Prior to us buying the property, ownership of our lot has not changed for sixty years. My neighbor has owned his house for ten years. When we asked him for permission to replace my sewer up the joint in his yard, he said okay. My next step is when the problem began. We needed a permit to do the work on our sewer. When I went to get approval and a permit from the city for the work to be done on our property and on his property, they wanted to see to a signed joint sewer agreement from my neighbor before ANY permits were pulled for our house. My neighbor refused to sign anything. My wife and I plan on selling the house after the remodeling is complete and would sleep a lot easier if we had a recorded agreement to pass on to the new owners. Without written permission from my neighbor, we can not do anything in his yard. According to a licensed experienced plumber, the sewer should be placed now when we replace the existing pipes during the remodel. In addition, the clay pipes were cracked and roots were present when I dug up the sewer on my side of the fence. To make matters worse, he has planted a tree directly over the joint where our pipes meet in his yard and more trees above the sewer path as it makes its way to the alley. This worries me.
My question is this: can the document, dating from 1948 showing the existing sewer and naming both prior property owners, be construed as a joint agreement? It is a description of the work that a plumbing company did in 1948. Can I record this in lieu of a new agreement signed by my neighbor?
Obviously, I could forget the whole matter and not replace the pipe after it exits my yard. This would allow me to pull permits for the remodel, but this would be similar to rebuilding a car’s engine and then using the old crankcase oil for lubrication. The issue might also come up when we’re selling the house and cause problems. Without a signed agreement, can the neighbor willingly cut us off from the sewer?
The second part was discovered when digging up the old sewer pipes. My plumber was complaining of the tight (3 feet) space he had to work with between our house and the neighbor’s fence to replace our existing sewer pipes. Then we noticed that our cleanout was located directly under the fence, actually in my neighbor’s property. This was wrong and prompted me to measure the width of our lot. I went to the city, obtained current maps and using monuments located nearby, measured with a metal tape measure the distance of each property across the block. This was easy because there are only three lots, with ours being in the middle. The first lot was accurate and corresponded to the measurements on the map. The second, ours, was three feet short if measured to the neighbor’s fence. Then I measured the neighbor’s lot from the middle of the street
and found that their lot was the correct width too, however, their fence could easily have been placed incorrectly back in the late 60s or early 70s when it was installed.
We would like to clear this up, but realize we need to pay a lot of money to a surveyor to survey the property. Before we pay for a survey we would like to know if we have a leg to stand on regarding my neighbor’s potential adverse possession of three feet of our property (150 square feet total). In addition to the fence there is a small tin shed next to the fence.
We really do not want the added expense of paying for survey or moving the fence if we can only accomplish our remodeling safely and to code under the existing conditions. We would like to resolve these issues, but find it difficult when the neighbor is unwilling. If it is determined that his fence is on our property, we do not mind giving him permission to use it for the fence and shed in exchange for a signed joint sewer agreement. Is that legal?
Sincerely, Chris in Tucson