Help! Hostage Situation (seriously but with data)

[leewells2000]

I am in North Carolina, but the server in which I have been running for over 4 years is at a company's data-center in California. The company name in question is CalPop.com

I'll explain whats happened, because this entire situation feels very wrong, and frightens me that this is able to happen to people if it is really legally unchecked.

I am a member of an organization that plays games online for fun and we communicate using a website often. We wanted to upgrade that communication to Voice Over IP (VOIP) by utilizing a free software called TeamSpeak. The problem is, the software is free, but finding it out there as a Free Service is rare and service is extremely "bouncy" to stay the least.

Our financial sponsor decided that he would get us a dedicated server to run all of this on. He paid over $1,800.00 for the first year of this hosting plus the cost of the server itself. Within 24 hours we had problems with the server but this guy knew as much about technology as you would expect an ant to know about astrophysics. So he told them that I would be the technical contact (just so I could be in the loop and have permission to access anything about the account that was of "technical" nature.

That issue did get resolved. We had several other issues during that time and suggested to this guy, Richard Hupp (financial guy and owner of the server + account) that we should move elsewhere because of the plague of problems. He said that was fine but let that contract run its term being it was non-refundable (paid by the year).

I did but before it ended, Mr. Hupp passed away. I immediately called Mrs Hupp, though I knew it was the last thing she wanted to hear, I knew that yearly re-up fee was coming... She told me specifically, "as long as you can give me an address, and name to write the check to, I'll be glad to keep you guys going for a few more years". She was in the organization as well though we didn't see much of her after her husbands death.

I then called CalPop.com and told them what was going on. They said very specifically, "Unless Mrs Hupp calls us and we get both of you to sign consent forms to release and accept ownership and billing responsibilities, I can't discuss anything about the server nor can I accept that he is dead from you without some documentation."

She said she then called, and took care of everything. I called CalPop back, and asked if everything was now in order, and they said yes. There were no issues and that the next billing date was in 2009. I asked them that if anything happens to at least give me a heads up so I can start transferring the data over.

I haven't heard hide nor hair of CalPop since then until today. At exactly 2PM EST the server goes down. I contact their server help desk, and they say its billing.

I call their billing and get up with their head guy, Matt, that insists the account hasn't been paid in 3 years. I can't doubt that, for I wasn't the party that made the payment. But I did ask why I was not contacted in this situation and instead my personal data is assessable. He started in a conversation about how he wasn't allowed to give up account billing details to anyone except the owner then stopped himself, and said, "Umm. Wait a second, you are ************** ************** ?" I was like, "Yeah!", He said, "Well, you're on the account as the owner and one responsible for billing." Naturally, my response, "What, when, how the hell did this happen?" He could only reply with, "I don't know, Sir.".. I asked, "Why did I ever recieve an invoice, letter, bill or something, via US Mail, email, or verbally being they had my info in their system as being their Tech contact... he replied the same, "I don't know, Sir."

So, "Can I please get my data back? I don't care if you want me to oblige to another 1 year contact, I just need my data." Response from Matt (recorded on speakerphone), "Sir, I'm sorry but if you don't pay the full remaining balance plus the 1 year contact to turn the service back on, there is nothing I can do. If it is not paid by January 1st, 2010, we will be destroying the data."

So the facts are,

• The account was paid in 2007 (I have that receipt paid by Mr Richard Hupp)
• I have been "made" responsible for the account and the past-due balance according to Matt without my knowledge.
• I never received notice that the account was ever delinquent
• The service was disconnected in Dec 23, 2009
• My data is now being held "hostage" by this datacenter.
• I do not mind paying a reasonable fee for cost of shipment to get that data to me.

Is there not anything I can do in this economy we're in today? I'm not a rich guy or anything but just doesn't seem right at all. I feel I have been damaged and taken advantage of here. If there is anything at all I can do without having to spend a lot of money to get it done (as I'll have to do this to get service going elsewhere), please someone speak up to what it is.

Thanks for your time in reading this and thanks ahead of time for any help you can provide!

 

[cyjeff]

Unless your agreement says differently, you don't have a case.

I know of no other company that wouldn't have already blanked your date about 30 days after failure to pay. They are giving you a huge amount of leeway here.

 

[leewells2000]

Unless your agreement says differently, you don't have a case.

I know of no other company that wouldn't have already blanked your date about 30 days after failure to pay. They are giving you a huge amount of leeway here.

My question is, what agreement? I was just stuck on this account without my permission or knowledge. I was never told this account was delinquent and the last I was told by them, it was current and being handled and that is all they could tell me.

I can see a company that has sent their bill or provided a client with knowledge of their responsibility for billing, but I got nothing like this... No agreement, nothing.

How is it that this guy said this will hurt my credit? This company does currently have data that does belong to me, that they are refusing to return to me for a bill they neglected to tell me was in my name or even past-due.

I feel trapped in this.. That I was somehow baited by saying everything was ok with the account; not telling me I was responsible, and then 3 years later telling me I owe a huge bill + fees + interest, and that until its paid, my data is being held hostage. Something is just not adding up.

 

[cyjeff]

My question is, what agreement? I was just stuck on this account without my permission or knowledge. I was never told this account was delinquent and the last I was told by them, it was current and being handled and that is all they could tell me.

I can see a company that has sent their bill or provided a client with knowledge of their responsibility for billing, but I got nothing like this... No agreement, nothing.

How is it that this guy said this will hurt my credit? This company does currently have data that does belong to me, that they are refusing to return to me for a bill they neglected to tell me was in my name or even past-due.

I feel trapped in this.. That I was somehow baited by saying everything was ok with the account; not telling me I was responsible, and then 3 years later telling me I owe a huge bill + fees + interest, and that until its paid, my data is being held hostage. Something is just not adding up.

You are missing the point.

It was YOUR responsibility to pay for the server after the original host died. You seem to think that using their bandwidth for two years for free entitles you to something.

Did you think it was being paid by elves?

 

[leewells2000]

You are missing the point.

It was YOUR responsibility to pay for the server after the original host died. You seem to think that using their bandwidth for two years for free entitles you to something.

Did you think it was being paid by elves?

It was YOUR responsibility to pay for the server after the original host died

What exactly makes this my responsibility? I know how to operate the server? I used the server? If its because i used the server, then if you've ever been to vraul.com, mlwassociates.com, used a plugin from wordpress.org, or mytekweb.com then you've also used the server as well has over a million other people out there. So I'm singled out because I volunteered to secure the server and keep the technical end operating smoothly? Then by George, I guarantee you I never volunteer for another darn thing in life if this is TRUELY how the law is written.

I was explicitly told that the account was in good standing and was taken care of until 09 (that would have been at the end of this month). Mind you this was back in 2007 too.

Besides that, how do I get opportunity to pay for that bandwidth when I'm told very strongly that I have no access to the billing portions of the account? Am I supposed to be psychic or am I simply to not question anything a corporation says I owe when they say it?

The issue here is, if they would have presented me with any hint of knowledge that I had responsibility when they transferred that over -- This account would not be in the state it is right now; unpayable withing reasonable time.

But if this is how the laws are indeed written, that is I can hurt someone's credit and take them to court that they owe me money without their consent, knowledge or what not. Never have I agreed to any of their terms. If they have terms they are obscured from someone that would communicate via telephone, email, or otherwise general use of their servers. In such case, how can I possibly be responsible for any agreement they attempt to superimpose? It does not make sense at all.

Edit:
Maybe you missed the point.. I had accounts on this server as did 30-50 others... How is it that I have technical knowledge of this server that I am presumed liable for the bill? I used the bandwidth yes, as did (I don't have the data but about...) 40ish others not to mention the millions of visitors to the multitude of websites on the server.
1. Why am I singled out? Because I have technical knowledge? If so, I officially forfeit my degree.
2. Since when was it legal to assign a bill to an entity without their knowledge or authorization that they were being billed? I've never been to a restaurant that called me up on the phone or waited until I got there to charge me for a bill that a buddy of mine paid but his check bounced on and they most certainly didn't hold my wallet hostage there because I accidentally left it there either. Last I heard this subjective billing wasn't quite kosher in the eyes of the blind lady. But then again, I'm not an attorney either.

But assuming what you're saying is correct and you're looking at this from a view-point of defense for me and not defense for the company.. There is nothing I can do but bend over and let them go deeper in January?

 

[cyjeff]

I was explicitly told that the account was in good standing and was taken care of until 09 (that would have been at the end of this month). Mind you this was back in 2007 too.

Besides that, how do I get opportunity to pay for that bandwidth when I'm told very strongly that I have no access to the billing portions of the account? Am I supposed to be psychic or am I simply to not question anything a corporation says I owe when they say it?

The issue here is, if they would have presented me with any hint of knowledge that I had responsibility when they transferred that over -- This account would not be in the state it is right now; unpayable withing reasonable time.

But if this is how the laws are indeed written, that is I can hurt someone's credit and take them to court that they owe me money without their consent, knowledge or what not. Never have I agreed to any of their terms. If they have terms they are obscured from someone that would communicate via telephone, email, or otherwise general use of their servers. In such case, how can I possibly be responsible for any agreement they attempt to superimpose? It does not make sense at all.

No, quite honestly, they should have booted you off the server the moment the signatory was no longer able to respond and until they had another signer.

But, they didn't.

I don't know why they didn't do it before.... I wasn't there.

However, someone owes them a bunch of money. Are you saying they don't deserve to be paid?

Or are you just upset because they aren't giving you the only thing they have to hold over you to GET paid?

 

[leewells2000]

No, quite honestly, they should have booted you off the server the moment the signatory was no longer able to respond and until they had another signer.

But, they didn't.

I don't know why they didn't do it before.... I wasn't there.

However, someone owes them a bunch of money. Are you saying they don't deserve to be paid?

Or are you just upset because they aren't giving you the only thing they have to hold over you to GET paid?

No, I understand their need for a payment, I question their methods of selecting the successor to the bill. Furthermore, I feel that I as well as a few others are being damaged by our data being held hostage by this data center.

To be perfectly honest, I had no problem with them switching that ownership of that account over to me, I would have paid it gladly, IF I KNEW ABOUT IT. Thats the biggest key there; They didn't have my authorization though I would have gladly given it, and I was completely clueless and told the account was paid through 2009 (meaning another bill was due in 2010).

It is the fact that they have waited all this time, allowed the bill to accumulate to such a high price (unreasonable) and then shut everyone down and then demand full past-due amount plus the next year's contract for data retrieval. If it was a few months behind... Yeah OK, fine, here is the cash... but leading me on that the account is ok, for 3 years, allowing that much cash to build up and then add fees to it and everything else and in turn say give that choice. Thats a bit unreasonable and it just seems the law wouldn't leave a consumer with that much of his backside exposed. This sounds at lot like the stuff the mob use to do.

Ever been to a bar with your buds, and they all get so drunk they pass out and can't pay their tab? Never have I seen the bar-tender hold me responsible for every one of those individuals with me; furthermore if someone picks up my tab, never have I been told I was responsible for a billing complication. I, yes I'm quitting, volunteer for Habitat for Humanity, there are several times that they take out a loan to build a home waiting for the funding to get to the office, but if the HH is late, I've never seen the bank pass along the costs to the home-owners. Seriously, I'm quitting HH... If they do something like this or related there is no way I'm having the responsibility for a 80K mortgage on my shoulders on top of the one I already have.

Here, a nice little senario that would fit perfectly with my issue... You win use rights for a car from "The Mall Program XXXX". You get it home, drive it, let your friends drive it, etc... Well the car you're driving is only borrowed... The person whom owns the car is the Mall but their making payments on that car through XXL Finance... The mall goes bankrupt and shuts down, but the insurance company the mall had calls you and tells you that you can keep that car until Dec 31 2009 at which point you will have to make the payments if you want to keep it. Ok, everything is told to you that the car is good, drive it, have fun... let your friends drive it, take others with you here and there...

Lets say during this time, the insurance didn't keep their word.... So now what you're saying, is because I used the car, and drove it, I'm 100% responsible for the payments at this point and XXL Finance can wait until they know the "to avoid default" payment is unreasonably high, seize ALL PROPERTY in the car that is legally mine and the car itself and tell me that if the "to avoid default" payment isn't made within 15 days I loose my property by incineration? If US law is seriously written like this, someone please confirm it and then confirm that Canada's isn't.

 

[cyjeff]

No, I understand their need for a payment, I question their methods of selecting the successor to the bill. Furthermore, I feel that I as well as a few others are being damaged by our data being held hostage by this data center.

To be perfectly honest, I had no problem with them switching that ownership of that account over to me, I would have paid it gladly, IF I KNEW ABOUT IT. Thats the biggest key there; They didn't have my authorization though I would have gladly given it, and I was completely clueless and told the account was paid through 2009 (meaning another bill was due in 2010).

Let's stop right there.

You were using the server and knew the signatory to be dead. Who did you think was paying?

Or did you just figure "Cool, free server."?

It is the fact that they have waited all this time, allowed the bill to accumulate to such a high price (unreasonable) and then shut everyone down and then demand full past-due amount plus the next year's contract for data retrieval. If it was a few months behind... Yeah OK, fine, here is the cash... but leading me on that the account is ok, for 3 years, allowing that much cash to build up and then add fees to it and everything else and in turn say give that choice. Thats a bit unreasonable and it just seems the law wouldn't leave a consumer with that much of his backside exposed. This sounds at lot like the stuff the mob use to do.

Little dramatic.

Not relevant though. You still owe what you owe.

Ever been to a bar with your buds, and they all get so drunk they pass out and can't pay their tab? Never have I seen the bar-tender hold me responsible for every one of those individuals with me; furthermore if someone picks up my tab, never have I been told I was responsible for a billing complication.

That doesn't have a damn thing to do with anything.

I, yes I'm quitting, volunteer for Habitat for Humanity, there are several times that they take out a loan to build a home waiting for the funding to get to the office, but if the HH is late, I've never seen the bank pass along the costs to the home-owners.

Are you saying you should be treated like a charity?

Seriously, I'm quitting HH... If they do something like this or related there is no way I'm having the responsibility for a 80K mortgage on my shoulders on top of the one I already have.

Well, then you don't care if the data is lost.

Are you saying the bill is 80K? Or is this just another drama moment?

 

[leewells2000]

Let's stop right there.

You were using the server and knew the signatory to be dead. Who did you think was paying?

Or did you just figure "Cool, free server."?

I said in the OP that THEY stated the widow was taking care of it.

Little dramatic.

Not relevant though. You still owe what you owe.

Its very relevant and not dramatic at all. Monthly payment is around $200 per month, which is manageable on a $2,000.00 per month army retirement.

Not letting someone know "hey dude! yeah you! You're now responsible for this bill!" and laying in wait for that bill to reach a total of over $7,000.000 ($7,833 or something like that). And then pulling the plug while all those that were using the services thought that the bill was taken care of? I don't understand it.. It would really take a lot of explaining and pointing to some legal text at this point to get me to believe that a company can walk off with intellectual property of someone in this capacity without that person being LEGALLY LIABLE for the bill. And I know for fact implied or direct, there is no way I can be liable for that bill especially if I wasn't even knowledgeable of it in the first place.

That doesn't have a damn thing to do with anything.

It has much to do with it.. Holding someone responsible for a bill without their consent, knowledge, or agreement. There is just no integrity there to that. Bars most likely don't do it because the word gets around quick in these party towns.

Are you saying you should be treated like a charity?

We are "non-profit" if that makes a difference. A charity, no. But the fact is, never does the responsibility of a mortgage pass down to the inhabitant of a home if the legal owner lives elsewhere. In fact, I know it is true here that if you stay in any dwelling you have to be given notice and time to vacate before you're home can be repossessed/auctioned/etc, and it has to be written; and if you leave something in the place, the law says they have to let you reclaim it if you were or are the legal owner of that piece of property let behind. So why is intellectual property treated any differently? if a car is repossessed, you have to be given a chance to remove your property from that car, by law. Again, if physical assets are treated this way, why is intellectual assets not?

Well, then you don't care if the data is lost.

Because I have the inability to pay 7g's right now means that I don't care if its lost? Are you serious because if so, that is a gross oversight on your part.

Are you saying the bill is 80K? Or is this just another drama moment?

No its as much as a car lawn. Call it drama if you want, drama is baiting someone for a bill like that, and then waiting for the bill to become excessive and give them a relatively short time to pay it. I know mobsters were arrested for less.

 

[cyjeff]

No, because you received a service.

I suppose you thought the widow of a former participant would continue to pay.

I doubt that a court of law would believe that.

Here is what you do... you have a lawyer draft a cease and desist. They won't kill the data... you won't use their server... and it will be decided in a court of law.

I guess you will then sue the widow for not making the payments... because the server farm will be suing you.

 

[leewells2000]

The best "relation" I can make to this...

We ALL know this site costs the webmasters to host correct?

We use this site... we post stuff... Upload our legal advice... Link to it here and there... have our images here...

Lets say you also stored stories that are supposed to be published in February... Now lets say you also stored valuable conversations between people here.

Now, lets say because you're considered a "lawyer" or "moderator" you have just been, without knowledge responsibility of the bill for the site.

Even that the main admin is say... out of this world... His wife/brother/cousin says they're taking over the payments... The hosting provider tells you they have it taken care of too... But they can't discuss anything else relating to that with you.

PS The Widow was a member of our organization... Why would it be so hard to believe that they carried out a family effort to foot the finance for the site?

You receive no bills, no invoices, no correspondence in the mail. When the past-due bill now reaches an out-outrageous number (say $7,000.00) you are told to pay now, or loose all the work you have submitted to the site.

You don't think you would have been wronged in the least?

No, because you received a service.

I suppose you thought the widow of a former participant would continue to pay.

I doubt that a court of law would believe that.

Here is what you do... you have a lawyer draft a cease and desist. They won't kill the data... you won't use their server... and it will be decided in a court of law.

I guess you will then sue the widow for not making the payments... because the server farm will be suing you.

NOOO read my OP! I said that she said she would pay... I called CalPop to CONFIRM it! They said "Everything is in order" or some bs... but wouldn't tell me anything else because I was not the owner of the account!!

But how will they sue me? You telling me that the Mods and Admins on these forums can be sued if the Site Owner doesn't pay is bill or passes away? I'm sorry but that's just utter dog ****.

 

[cyjeff]

The best "relation" I can make to this...

We ALL know this site costs the webmasters to host correct?

We use this site... we post stuff... Upload our legal advice... Link to it here and there... have our images here...

Lets say you also stored stories that are supposed to be published in February... Now lets say you also stored valuable conversations between people here.

Now, lets say because you're considered a "lawyer" or "moderator" you have just been, without knowledge responsibility of the bill for the site.

Even that the main admin is say... out of this world... His wife/brother/cousin says they're taking over the payments... The hosting provider tells you they have it taken care of too... But they can't discuss anything else relating to that with you.


You receive no bills, no invoices, no correspondence in the mail. When the past-due bill now reaches an out-outrageous number (say $7,000.00) you are told to pay now, or loose all the work you have submitted to the site.

You don't think you would have been wronged in the least?

I am fully aware that this site costs money and is supported by the administrators.

They could, at any time, decide to pull down the site and lose all the data.

However, none of this matters in your situation.

Your gaming community owes a debt. I recommend putting out the word that the game server is going to be down until the bill is paid in full. Ask for all 40 to put in $250.... and ask for ongoing support.

You don't have a great number of options. If you get taken to court, I am not saying you will pay, but I don't see a judge releasing your data unless you do.

 

[leewells2000]

I am fully aware that this site costs money and is supported by the administrators.

They could, at any time, decide to pull down the site and lose all the data.

However, none of this matters in your situation.

Your gaming community owes a debt. I recommend putting out the word that the game server is going to be down until the bill is paid in full. Ask for all 40 to put in $250.... and ask for ongoing support.

You don't have a great number of options. If you get taken to court, I am not saying you will pay, but I don't see a judge releasing your data unless you do.

WTH Man, its the same situation... whats the difference? This is a "Legal Advice Community" we were a "Gaming Community"... Both are free communities, with the only difference is that it seems ads are used here to off-set the costs.

I still just don't see how anyone can hold property hostage when physical property laws strictly forbid it. Being I was in the army and still hold a clearance, I what the "law" would think if that property happened to be something classified Top-Secret to SCI levels. Wasn't the government's fault the bill wasn't paid? Not my fault either. I believe I went out of my way to ensure the account was taken care of, and was willing to start payment cycles on it.

As for asking everyone to help out... Yeah, thats like pulling I-Teeth... I was able to give the guy that initially got this thing set up for us $300 for that year which was all I could have afforded at the time... I was the only donor besides him... Lot of people don't care so much about the data... Some do... one is a doctor himself and claims hes going to be at his attorney's office first thing in the am lol (if they're open). But the rest are just like "Meh, whatever". The doctor I think would put in 250 I could do 250... thats only 500... Which is way below full payment. This is after-all about 75% teenage kids in this community as well. Maybe another big difference =P.

I already have a game-server elsewhere.. Rebuilding and restoring some older backups is what is essential right now. But for the most part, there is some very important data and an article my wife was writing for PC Magazine (which gives me an idea that I may need some defense against libel charges lol) .. But for the most part, I just can't see how this is legal. If someone can super-impose a bill on me, then how come I can't super-impose "injunctive relief" or say even "reparations of damage" on them? Seriously?