horse trade

[chrishale7]

What is the name of your state? California
I traded a mare that I had for a paint gelding on 3/05/05. Both the owner of the paint and her trainer rode my mare and agreed she was suitable for the owner of the paint (we'll call her *Beth). The gelding was offered for sale at 3k and I was selling my mare for 1.5k. I offered them money in addition to the mare to make the trade even (this is all documented in emails). They declined the additional money stating that they were just happy to get rid of the gelding because Beth was afraid of him. Beth's trainer then called me on 3/09/05 and said the mare was lame and they wanted to trade back. I asked what happened to her and she said nothing that she knew of, the mare had left her barn, Beth had taken her home. I do not want to trade back for a lame horse. Beth's husband then called me and demanded we trade back, they had taken the horse to the vet and had bloodwork done on her and did not want to spend additional money to find out why she was limping. I again declined trading back and again offered them money again. He said no they didn't want it they wanted the gelding back. He said if we didn't give him back they would take us to court, which was fine with me. However I then got a call from the county sheriff saying they had reported the horse as stolen! They asked for my side of the story and after I told them, said it was a civil matter which I agree with. THEN I got a call from another county saying they had reported us there too! Again I told them what happened. I haven't heard from anyone since, but my question is, if they take us to court can they get the horse back? Will we get charged with stealing the horse? I printed out all the emails and they even marked him as 'sold' online! I don't quite know what to do.

 

[Shelby6718]

Horse tradin' and more horse tradin'

I don't expect you put anything in a bill of sale signed by all parties when the trade actually took place. If you did, and it was all layed out as you describe, an even across the board trade with no other stipulations, your fine. Plus if you have emails backing up all you have stated , I would say lets go to court. I assume if these were registered horses, the papers were also delivered and completed to transfer.

However, to play devil's advocate here, were all state laws met? You know, any concerning health papers and neg. coggins tests before relocating the horses to new locations? Were any vet checks done on either or both these horses before the trade. If so, any vet reports to assure the horse was sound when it left your premises. Any "as is" clauses in your agreement? You know a horse can be sound one day, step the wrong way on a rock or in a hole, and be lame the next. That's just part of owning horses. BYW, since they reported the horse "stolen", how did they explain having your horse. They may be in a deal for a false police report. Perhaps you should check on that aspect of it. The police have far more important things to do then to have to waste time of this type on thing.

 

[chrishale7]

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately (we've learned our lesson now) there were no papers signed. Our mare was not registered, but apparently the gelding is and they said they have his papers. Nice, huh? Anyway there were no vettings done on either horse until after the fact when the mare went lame. THEN they decided to have her looked at. No coggins tests were done, they're not required unless traveling out of state as far as I know. The way I understand it, the verbal agreement is as binding as the written and even if something did go wrong with one of the horses, there is a three day 'grace period' for which to negate the trade. Obviously I didn't know all of this before, but I sure read up on it! I would appreciate any advice about dealing with the false accusations and false police reports. If the police now know, will they take action or do we need to initiate it?

I don't expect you put anything in a bill of sale signed by all parties when the trade actually took place. If you did, and it was all layed out as you describe, an even across the board trade with no other stipulations, your fine. Plus if you have emails backing up all you have stated , I would say lets go to court. I assume if these were registered horses, the papers were also delivered and completed to transfer.

However, to play devil's advocate here, were all state laws met? You know, any concerning health papers and neg. coggins tests before relocating the horses to new locations? Were any vet checks done on either or both these horses before the trade. If so, any vet reports to assure the horse was sound when it left your premises. Any "as is" clauses in your agreement? You know a horse can be sound one day, step the wrong way on a rock or in a hole, and be lame the next. That's just part of owning horses. BYW, since they reported the horse "stolen", how did they explain having your horse. They may be in a deal for a false police report. Perhaps you should check on that aspect of it. The police have far more important things to do then to have to waste time of this type on thing.

 

[Shelby6718]

Let this calm down.........

For now, if all is quiet, I would probably not push the envelope. Have all your emails, notes on conversations, and anything else you may have all together, copied, and ready to go to small claims court. However, I would also try to get copies of the two police reports that were filed. It would go to show the crediability of the other party. (or lack of it). Line up any witnesses to the actual facts that are willing to go to court with you. Many times courts do not put any value on signed whitness affidavits even if notarized. You need these people there. By witnesses, I mean people who were there when the horses changed hands, meetings were held, terms were set,etc. No third party heresay.

If they do sue make sure you counter sue for the geldings papers (if they were part of the original bargin), and possibly "harassment" (the police contacts). Without doing such, you will most likely never get the registration papers (if they were of any importance to you).

I don't know anything about a "three day grace period" pretaining to contracts such as this ( verbal between two parties) unless stipulated as such. From what I understand the "three day grace period" usually involves purchases from a door-to-door sales person or telephone sales, etc. I might be wrong but .............

Not that it should have any impact on this matter but FYI, you may also want to check with the Ca state agriculture dept on regulations on health papers and Coggins tests. I know a health certificate is required to cross state lines, however, in some states a negative Coggins is required anytime a horse is in a trailer being transported anywhere (even within the state). We have traveled extensively with horses and each state has it's own regulations on this. You should see the hoops you jump through getting in and out of Canada with horses!

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Please use this link to find the California laws appropriate for your questions.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html
goto Evidence code 621-624 this will help with your contract issues
goto Penal code for false police reports and ask the sheriff to file charges with the DA, once is understandable, but twice is not. which counties are involved? Which county contacted you first?

Check with department of consumers affairs re cooling off periods for live animals .
Was the horse lame prior to sale?

It seems that the vet who did the blood work should have checked out the condition of the horse.

I'll do some checking but that should get you on the right path, let them take you to court and countersue.

How is the Gelding working out? Some can get spooked, has to do with how they became a gelding

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=all&codebody=horse+lame&hits=20

 

[chrishale7]

The sheriff's departments don't even have the complaints on file. From what they tell us it wasn't even worth them filing a report because it was clearly a civil matter according to the sheriff. So we don't have any documentation of that and we were told that even if they did, they wouldn't be able to release the information to us. I feel like I've just kind of reached a stand still on all this. i agree, I will probably let it sit for a while since things are quiet, I just don't want to be slapped with something a month from now that I'm not prepared for. I don't want to be a sitting duck! But I do appreciate all your advice, thank you for helping me. I'm going to look today to see the regulations for coggins, etc. in California.

For now, if all is quiet, I would probably not push the envelope. Have all your emails, notes on conversations, and anything else you may have all together, copied, and ready to go to small claims court. However, I would also try to get copies of the two police reports that were filed. It would go to show the crediability of the other party. (or lack of it). Line up any witnesses to the actual facts that are willing to go to court with you. Many times courts do not put any value on signed whitness affidavits even if notarized. You need these people there. By witnesses, I mean people who were there when the horses changed hands, meetings were held, terms were set,etc. No third party heresay.

If they do sue make sure you counter sue for the geldings papers (if they were part of the original bargin), and possibly "harassment" (the police contacts). Without doing such, you will most likely never get the registration papers (if they were of any importance to you).

I don't know anything about a "three day grace period" pretaining to contracts such as this ( verbal between two parties) unless stipulated as such. From what I understand the "three day grace period" usually involves purchases from a door-to-door sales person or telephone sales, etc. I might be wrong but .............

Not that it should have any impact on this matter but FYI, you may also want to check with the Ca state agriculture dept on regulations on health papers and Coggins tests. I know a health certificate is required to cross state lines, however, in some states a negative Coggins is required anytime a horse is in a trailer being transported anywhere (even within the state). We have traveled extensively with horses and each state has it's own regulations on this. You should see the hoops you jump through getting in and out of Canada with horses!

 

[chrishale7]

I wrote the DA, and was given a few contact numbers to file a complaint, thanks for pointing me in that direction. It was Placer and Nevada county that contacted us, in that order. The horse was not lame before, we have a farrier that will make a statement, and we had taken her tot he vet to have her teeth floated. They said she "looked" in good health. I never even had her vetted because I just picked her up for a trail horse. It's funny that they even had her blood drawn after the trade took place, considering we "stole their horse". So it was not a prepurchase exam at all. It was done approx. 5 days after the trade took place according to the voicemails and police quotes. The gelding has been good, he likes to play out on the trail (which is why they were afraid of him) but I don't think he has a mean bone in his body. He and our other gelding get along very well.

Please use this link to find the California laws appropriate for your questions.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html
goto Evidence code 621-624 this will help with your contract issues
goto Penal code for false police reports and ask the sheriff to file charges with the DA, once is understandable, but twice is not. which counties are involved? Which county contacted you first?

Check with department of consumers affairs re cooling off periods for live animals .
Was the horse lame prior to sale?

It seems that the vet who did the blood work should have checked out the condition of the horse.

I'll do some checking but that should get you on the right path, let them take you to court and countersue.

How is the Gelding working out? Some can get spooked, has to do with how they became a gelding

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=all&codebody=horse+lame&hits=20