Odometer Fraud?

[BelizeBreeze]

This is the way the deal went:
Drove to Orlando to look at the car my son saw on a website.
Dealer said car was "loaded" and in excellent shape with no mechanical problems.
Dealer said they just put a new paint job on car approx. 2 months ago.
Dealer took my son for a test drive. Never said anything about the odometer and my son said he did not notice it while on the test drive. During the test drive it was making a clicking noise while turning and the stereo was not working. Once they got back to the lot, son asked about the clicking. Dealer asked his mechanic to look at it. They told us that it needs new springs, looked as though the previous owner lowered the car.
My son has a pair of springs from his old Honda that his father bought for him as a "fix it upper" that didn't get fixed.
Mechanic said the speakers were taken out of the car by the previos owner. That was ok too, my son was going to change them out anyhow.
Signed a contract
The car is a 1995 Honda Civic EX, 5 spd. and the selling price was $5,495.
Odometer Disclosure Statement was included in the contract and states that the odometer nows reads 159617 and that to the best of their knowledge it reflects the actual miles on the car. Nothing was checked about exceeding the mechanical limits or that they are miles unknown.
Then we signed the bill of sale that showed the car was sold "As Is" and the seller makes no warranties.
Certification of Pollution Control Devices or Systems was also part of the contract.
We signed everything, gave him the down payment and left.
We went half a block to get gas and there was no gas cap, turned around, they gave us a gas cap.
Once we got on the turnpike, son called and said his Speedometer was not working. We pulled off at the first rest stop, I called the dealer from my cell phone, he told us that the speedometer sensor module was just replaced and that it may have become diconnected and when we got home to remove the screws, and see if the pin was pushed in. The pin was in and we reconnected it, still does not work. I asked my son what the miles read and he told me 159617.
I again called the dealer the next day. He said try and stretch the pin and if that didnt work to get someone else to look at it, we might have to buy a new one for around $90 and have someone to fix it. I asked him how long he had the car and he said for about a month. When I asked why he replaced the module, he just said they needed to. I then asked how that would effect the title and odometer disclosure and he said it would not effect it at all.
I did not mean for this to turn "ugly" on here. I just wasn't sure how this should have been reported, if we should have been told about this at the time of the deal and if this was considered odometer fraud.
Thank you for everyone's advise. I will let you know what the service guy says tomorrow.

None of this matters until you get an opinion as to the age of the module and the correct reading on the odometer.
Did you check the car history as advised on the Florida Secretary of State's website or did I post that just to hear myself type?

 

[Supmom810]

None of this matters until you get an opinion as to the age of the module and the correct reading on the odometer.
Did you check the car history as advised on the Florida Secretary of State's website or did I post that just to hear myself type?

Yes I checked it and it only shows one record recorded back in 2002. That record shows an active title with 117,500 actual miles with no liens.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Yes I checked it and it only shows one record recorded back in 2002. That record shows an active title with 117,500 actual miles with no liens.

and what does the odometer read now?

 

[Supmom810]

It reads 159617, but that doesn't tell whether it's the actual miles that the dealer disclosed. He obviously knew the odometer was broke or he wouldn't have supposably replaced the module and not bother to tell us this.
I just want to know how many miles are on that car? Did he disconnect it and drive it while in his possession? I'm thinking they forgot to reconnect it before we drove off and now that we brought this to his attention, he wants to back pedal.
Doesn't matter, we will know one way or another tomorrow.
Thanks so much for your help

 

[BelizeBreeze]

It reads 159617, but that doesn't tell whether it's the actual miles that the dealer disclosed. He obviously knew the odometer was broke or he wouldn't have supposably replaced the module and not bother to tell us this.

see? this is what happens when someone answers incorrectly with assumption and NOT based on the facts.

You are assuming that the dealer did something wrong. You are assuming that by replacing a part on the car, the dealer is under a legal obligation to report that to you. Neither is correct.

I just want to know how many miles are on that car? Did he disconnect it and drive it while in his possession? I'm thinking they forgot to reconnect it before we drove off and now that we brought this to his attention, he wants to back pedal.

Again, assumptions that no one knows.

Doesn't matter, we will know one way or another tomorrow.
Thanks so much for your help

so why are we talking about assumptions now? You only add fuel to the troll's posting. PLEASE wait until you have a certified mechanic check the car out.

 

[Supmom810]

see? this is what happens when someone answers incorrectly with assumption and NOT based on the facts.

You are assuming that the dealer did something wrong. You are assuming that by replacing a part on the car, the dealer is under a legal obligation to report that to you. Neither is correct.

Again, assumptions that no one knows.

so why are we talking about assumptions now? You only add fuel to the troll's posting. PLEASE wait until you have a certified mechanic check the car out.

I now KNOW that the dealer knew there was a problem with the speedometer and odometer, if not then why would he "replace" a part? I KNOW that he let us drive off with a broken speedometer, therefore affecting the odometer and did not bother to say anything. I MAY be assuming, but sounds to me this dealer is up to no good. He did not just replace a bumper or spark plug, he messed with something that could affect the value of the car and then didn't even make sure it was working correctly before he sold the car.
From what I understand there is no law regarding disclosure of all repairs, but there is a LAW regarding disclosure when the odometer has been disconnected, replaced or broken and that law says how these situations are to be handled. IF he didn't know that the odometer was broken, then why replace a sensor module?

 

[BelizeBreeze]

I now KNOW that the dealer knew there was a problem with the speedometer and odometer, if not then why would he "replace" a part?

You KNOW nothing of the sort. The only thing you KNOW is that a part was replaced or represented as being replaced. You do not NOW the reason behind such repacement.

I KNOW that he let us drive off with a broken speedometer, therefore affecting the odometer and did not bother to say anything.

Again, you KNOW nothing of the sort. How do you prove he KNEW that the odometer was not working? You can't. Your son had just as much opportunity during the test drive to KNOW this and bring it to the dealer's attention so should we ASSUME he KNEW also?

I MAY be assuming, but sounds to me this dealer is up to no good.

No one is arguing except you. I have NEVER said the dealer may NOT be blameless. I have only told you to quit assuming which you seem incapable of doing.

He did not just replace a bumper or spark plug, he messed with something that could affect the value of the car and then didn't even make sure it was working correctly before he sold the car.

Again, ASSUMING.

From what I understand there is no law regarding disclosure of all repairs,

And again, you would be wrong.

but there is a LAW regarding disclosure when the odometer has been disconnected, replaced or broken and that law says how these situations are to be handled.

Really? Then please post the exact statute and how it relates to anything in your post that you can PROVE!.

IF he didn't know that the odometer was broken, then why replace a sensor module?

That is a question of fact for the court. NOT you.

 

[cjbrown929]

Supmom: I promise you that you are wasting your time discussing this situation with belize.

He seems to be fixated on someone trying to blame the dealer (even though, in my opinion, it's a virtual certainty). Belize, take your meds and try to FOCUS.

IT DOESN'T MATTER if the dealer knew about the problem or not in terms of having to rewrite the contract. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Making up stuff in your brain and calling it advice is a waste of time. This site is for LEGAL ADVICE.

Supmom: trust me, I've been involved in thousands of car deals. The clicking you hear when the steering wheel is turned is almost certainly CV joints in need of replacement. These are used in front wheel drive cars and are filled with grease. When they get old, the grease leaks out causing clicking especially when the wheel is turned hard.

I would emphasize that, regardless of whether the dealer knew about the odo problem, they HAVE to redo the contract. Theonly possible way they could get around this is if they could PROVE that the odo started malfunctioning right after you bought it, which is so unlikely it's not even worth discussing. All you would have to tell a judge is that, after driving the car for quite a while, the odometer SHOWS THE EXACT SAME READING AS WHEN IT WAS SOLD.

YOU have the choice of resigning. If you do, you must consider the greatly decreased value of a car with unknown miles. If you have a trusted mechanic, have them check the car out. If the dealer lied about the miles (I said IF, belize) there are likely other problems.

Don't let the dealer bs you. Let me know if you have more questions. If you have any doubts about my advice, call your state bureau of consumer affairs or the DMV and tell them that the car is registering the SAME miles as was recorded on the contract when you bought it, and that the dealer stated that to the best of their knowledge, the miles listed were true and accurate.

Personally, I would just give the car back and get all of my $ back.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Supmom: I promise you that you are wasting your time discussing this situation with belize.

Yep it sure is.

He seems to be fixated on someone trying to blame the dealer (even though, in my opinion, it's a virtual certainty). Belize, take your meds and try to FOCUS.

Wrong. I'm fixated on not assuming things.

IT DOESN'T MATTER if the dealer knew about the problem or not in terms of having to rewrite the contract. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Making up stuff in your brain and calling it advice is a waste of time. This site is for LEGAL ADVICE.

Then tell supermom where you got your law degree. I'll wait.

Supmom: trust me,

And that is the difference between you and me. I don't care if she trusts me or not. She should contact the certified dealer to learn the TRUE story then the state attorney general for an opinion. NOt some used car salesperson who does NOT have a law degree or any understanding of the law.

I've been involved in thousands of car deals. The clicking you hear when the steering wheel is turned is almost certainly CV joints in need of replacement. These are used in front wheel drive cars and are filled with grease. When they get old, the grease leaks out causing clicking especially when the wheel is turned hard.

Oh bully for you. And it could also mean a worn caliper, a piece of metal rubbing or any number of other things. But since you're the expert because you sold cars, I'll let you play winner on this one.

I would emphasize that, regardless of whether the dealer knew about the odo problem, they HAVE to redo the contract.

And again, please state the FLORIDA statute that supports this ASSUMPTION.

Theonly possible way they could get around this is if they could PROVE that the odo started malfunctioning right after you bought it, which is so unlikely it's not even worth discussing.

Really? I'm sure your law professor would like to know this. And for that matter, every judge in the state of florida.

Simply put, the Plaintiff in any matter has the burden of proof. NOT the defendant. But you would have known this had you known anything about the law.

All you would have to tell a judge is that, after driving the car for quite a while, the odometer SHOWS THE EXACT SAME READING AS WHEN IT WAS SOLD.

And that proves that the odometer was not working WHEN SHE NOTICED IT, NOT when the car was purchased or before.

YOU have the choice of resigning. If you do, you must consider the greatly decreased value of a car with unknown miles. If you have a trusted mechanic, have them check the car out. If the dealer lied about the miles (I said IF, belize) there are likely other problems.

And her resigning is contingent upon the dealer offering a new contract which is NOT, at this point, required.

Don't let the dealer bs you. Let me know if you have more questions. If you have any doubts about my advice, call your state bureau of consumer affairs or the DMV and tell them that the car is registering the SAME miles as was recorded on the contract when you bought it, and that the dealer stated that to the best of their knowledge, the miles listed were true and accurate.

And you can prove otherwise? Please enlighten this entire forum how you know that when the son also was in the car and didn't know this until AFTER driving away.

Personally, I would just give the car back and get all of my $ back.

And personally you would be here minutes after screaming aobut not getting your money back and wanting to sue.

Give it up already.

 

[Supmom810]

And that proves that the odometer was not working WHEN SHE NOTICED IT, NOT when the car was purchased or before.

Well lets see, we bought the car last Tuesday afternoon, it is now 6 days later and the mileage is the same as the disclosure statement he signed and provided us at the time of purchase!! He knew the odometer was not working and that is why he supposably replaced the module, his words "Because we had to"

Like I said, we will find out tomorrow.

 

[cjbrown929]

Amen, supermom. The miles are EXACTLY the same after a weeks driving as they were when the car was sold. What could a person conclude from this?

If you are belize, nothing, nada, zip. He sounds like he's the attorney for the dealer.

I am on your side. Again, this is a simple situation. The dealer will have a signed title or equivalent from when they took the car in. Ask to see it and check the mileage statement. My guess is that the mileage when they bought the car will be exactly the same as it is right now.

Simple, quick, and damning as hell. I'd like to see the dealer try and explain how they didn't put even ONE mile on the car after they took it in.

Please be aware that in most states, dmv agencies are very protective of consumers, even while they protect the rights of dealers.

Let us know what happens if you'd like.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

If you are belize, nothing, nada, zip. He sounds like he's the attorney for the dealer.
.

I'm still waiting for you to post where you attended law school or what, if any, legal education you have.

You can do that can't you since you've forwarded some very interesting (albeit wrong) legal theories.

WELL?

 

[cjbrown929]

i'm not going to bicker with you. I don't have a law degree, and if you DO, you oughta be ashamed of yourself.

If the op chooses to do so, she can share what happens tomorrow with the forum and we all can learn.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

I have been hoping that instead of spouting your crap you'd actually learn something. But instead, you continue holding on to your ignorance.

So, here's a hint.

Go back to supermom's post made at 9:37 a.m. this morning and there is where you will find your error of law and the only relevant fact that will cause supermom to waste a lot of time and effort in following your advice.

And it is the ONLY relevant fact that matters in this situation.

Now, happy hunting. You can always come back and embarrass yourself further if you feel the need.

 

[dallas702]

Just an FYI regarding the ODO/computer relationship: I was told at the time of my encounter that only a licensed dealer could reset the computer if the ODO or sending unit was replaced/repaired, and that it was only allowed ONE time. Your seller (not sure if you mean a factory franchised dealer or a used car dealer) may not have done anything wrong in replacing the sensor, but he must have done it for a reason....such as noticing that the mileage didn't advance as the car was driven, or that the mileage didn't match the PCM. You need to know (may have been stated by either BB or CJ) if FL law prohibits a dealer of any kind from selling a car with a nonworking or inaccurate ODO. I would guess the answer to be "cannot do it". In such case, the contract would be invalidated. I had this done in CA a few years ago, but then CA is a different planet.

CJ is right about the clicking being CV joints. Unless there is something actually rubbing against a brake assembly or hub...or a bad hub bearing....it is a CV joint. That's very common. Now, since the previous owner messed with the suspension, it could be anything...including a bad hub bearing, which can be very expensive to replace. To check yourself raise the car and grab the wheel at 6 and 12 o'clock and rock the assembly back and forth. repeat at 3 and 9 oclock. If you get more than a very slight (1/16-1/8") loose movement in both directions, you have a bad wheel/hub bearing. Do not include the movement of the rest of the suspension in that rocking motion. It doesn't take much pressure to feel the slop if it's there.

Personally, for $5500 I think this car has far too many potential problems and too many miles....even the miles you know about.