Odometer Fraud?

[BelizeBreeze]

Just an FYI regarding the ODO/computer relationship: I was told at the time of my encounter that only a licensed dealer could reset the computer if the ODO or sending unit was replaced/repaired, and that it was only allowed ONE time. Your seller (not sure if you mean a factory franchised dealer or a used car dealer) may not have done anything wrong in replacing the sensor, but he must have done it for a reason....such as noticing that the mileage didn't advance as the car was driven, or that the mileage didn't match the PCM. You need to know (may have been stated by either BB or CJ) if FL law prohibits a dealer of any kind from selling a car with a nonworking or inaccurate ODO. I would guess the answer to be "cannot do it". In such case, the contract would be invalidated. I had this done in CA a few years ago, but then CA is a different planet.

Florida prohibits knowingly selling or operating a motor vehicle without a functioning odometer.

CJ is right about the clicking being CV joints. Unless there is something actually rubbing against a brake assembly or hub...or a bad hub bearing....it is a CV joint. That's very common. Now, since the previous owner messed with the suspension, it could be anything...including a bad hub bearing, which can be very expensive to replace. To check yourself raise the car and grab the wheel at 6 and 12 o'clock and rock the assembly back and forth. repeat at 3 and 9 oclock. If you get more than a very slight (1/16-1/8") loose movement in both directions, you have a bad wheel/hub bearing. Do not include the movement of the rest of the suspension in that rocking motion. It doesn't take much pressure to feel the slop if it's there.

That might have been a good guess by others, but simply stating it as fact is what I had a problem with.

Personally, for $5500 I think this car has far too many potential problems and too many miles....even the miles you know about.

And, of course, that is a matter of personal opinion. I have a 20 year old car that is worth $125,000 and has more than 1 million miles on it.

 

[cjbrown929]

belize: checkmate

From the 10th Cicuit Court of Appeals, in Suiter v Mitchell Motors:

"In Haynes v. Manning, 917 F.2d 450 (10th Cir. 1990)(per curiam), this court addressed the standard for determining whether a transferor acted with intent to defraud under the Odometer Act. The court concluded that the transferee need not show the transferor acted with specific intent to deceive"..."Rather, the transferee need only show "reckless disregard" by the transferor"..."Importantly, the court concluded that the Odometer Act 'imposes AN AFFIRMATIVE DUTY on automobile dealers TO DISCOVER DEFECTS'" [emphasis added]. "The court then stated: 'A transferor of a vehicle may be found to have intended to defraud if he had reason to know the mileage on the vehicle was more than was reflected by the odometer or certification of the previous owner and nevertheless failed to take reasonable steps to determine the actual mileage'"

Matlock is sure a lot easier to understand, huh, belize?

 

[BelizeBreeze]

From the 10th Cicuit Court of Appeals, in Suiter v Mitchell Motors:

"In Haynes v. Manning, 917 F.2d 450 (10th Cir. 1990)(per curiam), this court addressed the standard for determining whether a transferor acted with intent to defraud under the Odometer Act. The court concluded that the transferee need not show the transferor acted with specific intent to deceive"..."Rather, the transferee need only show "reckless disregard" by the transferor"..."Importantly, the court concluded that the Odometer Act 'imposes AN AFFIRMATIVE DUTY on automobile dealers TO DISCOVER DEFECTS'" [emphasis added]. "The court then stated: 'A transferor of a vehicle may be found to have intended to defraud if he had reason to know the mileage on the vehicle was more than was reflected by the odometer or certification of the previous owner and nevertheless failed to take reasonable steps to determine the actual mileage'"

Matlock is sure a lot easier to understand, huh, belize?

Nice try. But read the entire case opinion including its citations and progeny.

THEN you might be able to play attorney.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Here's a hint.
Suiter v. Mitchell Motor Coach Sales, Inc

ANd if you still can read and comprehend, Blue Bird was the co-defendent and most closely matches this case.

Now, go play attorney again.

 

[dallas702]

BB;

But I'll bet yours isn't a '95 Honda that has been *"modded".


* not the paisley roof and rabbit fur interior type.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

BB;

But I'll bet yours isn't a '95 Honda that has been *"modded".


* not the paisley roof and rabbit fur interior type.

You would be correct.

It's a 1961 Mercedes-Benz Type 300 "Adenauer" convertible, brown with butterscotch interior.

 

[dallas702]

How absolutely cool!

I restored a '65 220SEb Cabriolet about 20 years ago. It was one of the last 5 made before the short-lived 250 came out, and it must have had 1000+ pieces of chrome (all of which were pitted and required replating, of course). I refinished all the wood myself, and shortly after I got her on the road a woman chased me down on Sahara Ave. and made me a cash offer I couldn't refuse. Of course, it wasn't in that $125K class, but those older Mercedes cabriolets are real attention-getters.

You got one of those big (gigantic) ivory steering wheels?

 

[BelizeBreeze]

How absolutely cool!

I restored a '65 220SEb Cabriolet about 20 years ago. It was one of the last 5 made before the short-lived 250 came out, and it must have had 1000+ pieces of chrome (all of which were pitted and required replating, of course). I refinished all the wood myself, and shortly after I got her on the road a woman chased me down on Sahara Ave. and made me a cash offer I couldn't refuse. Of course, it wasn't in that $125K class, but those older Mercedes cabriolets are real attention-getters.

You got one of those big (gigantic) ivory steering wheels?

The steering wheel is original and yes, Ivory. And the 220s were great but the Pontoon was the best of that breed.

I'm still looking for a good 300sl project but not much time these days. If I can't fine the 300 there is a 1929 500k that I can get for less than $400,000 ...

I used to live a mile from the Bayerisch Motor Werks Stadt Museum in Bayern and they have two. One has never been restored so it would make a great project.

 

[dallas702]

Yeah, those older 300s were gorgeous. I saw a '55 or '56 SC (cabriolet) go for about $160k at the Imperial Palace auction in the late '80s. I suspect that car is worth near (or over) $1mm today. The IP museum used to have a red 540K that was absolutely breathtaking. They also used to have a bunch of Deuseys, but since the owner died a few years back they've sold off most of the really good cars (except the Elvis stuff ;p).

A good German classic in whole condition is like finding a piece of Heaven!

 

[cjbrown929]

Here's a hint.
Suiter v. Mitchell Motor Coach Sales, Inc

ANd if you still can read and comprehend, Blue Bird was the co-defendent and most closely matches this case.

Now, go play attorney again.

I'll do the best I can.

Blue Bird was the manufacturer, Mitchell was the dealer, and except for a minor issue involving attorney's fees, the case against Mitchell was upheld. The op has not involved the Honda Co, the manufacturer of the car.

Is it really your position that the dealer in the op's case does not have to rewrite the contract with corrected information? If you had purchased the same car under similar circumstances, and DIDN'T request a corrected contract and subsequently resold the car without noting an odometer discrepancy (which you knew to exist), what would your defense be when the new owner caught you? I think that pleading ignorance would be your most believable strategy.

PS: to the OP, you should check and see if you can receive treble (triple) damages because of the dealers actions.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Yeah, those older 300s were gorgeous. I saw a '55 or '56 SC (cabriolet) go for about $160k at the Imperial Palace auction in the late '80s. I suspect that car is worth near (or over) $1mm today. The IP museum used to have a red 540K that was absolutely breathtaking. They also used to have a bunch of Deuseys, but since the owner died a few years back they've sold off most of the really good cars (except the Elvis stuff ;p).

A good German classic in whole condition is like finding a piece of Heaven!

I know... And I know where it's sitting right now.

Unfortunately, it isn't mine but it's one of only 5 left in the world and it gets started every week but never driven.


Now CJ, tell the nice posters WHY Blue Bird was added to the suit and why, subsequently they won their motion for summary judgement.

 

[Supmom810]

Now to clear all this up. No, We can NOT find out the actual miles on the car through diagnostics. Yes, it has a bad CV joint.
I called once again the dealer and asked where he got the car. He bought it from an auction. He said that he has had the car for a couple of months. I again asked why the speed sensor was replaced, was the speedometer broke. He said when he bought the car it was working, then it broke and that is the reason they replaced the module, he thought that corrected the problem. Therefore he KNEW there was a problem before selling the car to us, but did NOT disclose this.
So here we are, owned the car for 1 week and already looking at a repair bill of approx. $500-700. Oh yea, the dealer asked me to send him back the sensor that he put in the car. I don't think so.
So now what are my options? Do I contact an attorney, the DMV, or who? I feel bad for my son, but I think we may be giving this car back. My son wants me to insist that they make all the repairs, but his mechanic didn't even know it was a CV joint. Or maybe he did and just wanted the sale.
Anyhow, that is where we are at.
Odometer Fraud? Or no?

 

[cjbrown929]

I asked first. Is it your contention that the dealer doesn't have to rewrite the contract?

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Now to clear all this up. No, We can NOT find out the actual miles on the car through diagnostics. Yes, it has a bad CV joint.
I called once again the dealer and asked where he got the car. He bought it from an auction. He said that he has had the car for a couple of months. I again asked why the speed sensor was replaced, was the speedometer broke. He said when he bought the car it was working, then it broke and that is the reason they replaced the module, he thought that corrected the problem. Therefore he KNEW there was a problem before selling the car to us, but did NOT disclose this.
So here we are, owned the car for 1 week and already looking at a repair bill of approx. $500-700. Oh yea, the dealer asked me to send him back the sensor that he put in the car. I don't think so.
So now what are my options? Do I contact an attorney, the DMV, or who? I feel bad for my son, but I think we may be giving this car back. My son wants me to insist that they make all the repairs, but his mechanic didn't even know it was a CV joint. Or maybe he did and just wanted the sale.
Anyhow, that is where we are at.
Odometer Fraud? Or no?

And did you ask the CERTIFIED MECHANIC that you had look at the car if the module was new, used or even functioning?

I gave you the Secretary of State's site before. If you feel you have a case, file a complaint with them.

 

[Supmom810]

No I did not ask if it was used or new, I don't know if it is disfunctioning because the car is still there for repairs. All I know is the speedometer and odometer is not working and from the mileage on the odometer disclosure and the miles on it today, it hasn't work since the minute we drove it off the lot. They will be calling me before they fix it, so I will make sure I ask them.