Online purchase paid w/USPO-seller says never received? I think I'm being scammed

[Pugman]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Wisconsin.

Here is the situation.

I purchased a handgun from a indivdual on line through a website I'm a frequent poster on. The handgun was sent through an FFL and received by an FFL. My background check and holding period were all completed fine and I received the firearm. I received exactly what I expected.

A U.S Postal Money order was purchased and mailed to the seller on 12/10/09. It was not sent certified because the payment was going to a p.o box; the clerk at the time told me it could not be sent certified because it couldn't be signed for-I've already found out this isn't true. During a phone conversation with the seller, he told me he wanted it sent here because "he didn't wan't his wife knowing what he was doing."

On 12/24, the seller sent me a email indicating the money order hasn't been received yet. I started a Form 6401 (I think) inquiry on 12/28/09.

During this period of time I've gotten an education on USPO MOs. They can't be canceled...they have no expiration date...and even if I have a replacement issued and the original MO gets cashed I'm liable for both payments. Simply put, buyer beware. Knowing what I know now I would never use a USPO MO ever again...for anything.

Now my thoughts:

I think its a scam. First, the site I bought it on this poster has a total of 26 posts where I have several thousand. All his posts on in the For Sale section.

The whole "wife" line just strikes me as off.

The item I purchased was deeply discounted...the whole if its too good to be true is seeming spot on here.

Because the MO has no expiration date, he could pressure potential buyers into reissuing it and cashing the original several months or even years later. If he did, I would get a bill from the USPO and at that time could file a fraud complaint--but I'm still liable for the money?

Although we all know the post office loses stuff and its a one liner joke for many people, how many people here have truely had something lost?

The USPO in Kansas City did confirm its his box. So the letter hasn't been returned to me, the address is good, and he is saying it wasn't received.

Legally.

Has the firearm been legally transferred with this "missing" payment?

Has anyone else here heard of cons like this.

How should I handle this legally?

 

[swalsh411]

There is no question as to whether or not the firearm was properly received by you as you did it through an FFL.

Has the postal money order been cashed/deposited? There must be a mechanism for tracking this.

 

[Pugman]

Sorry for the long delay as I've been going through other avenues to no avail.

There is a way to track the cashing of the money order through the U.S Post Office Accounting Helpdesk.

The problem is the fact the money order never expires until its cashed. Discussions with the help desk have indicated they see money orders come through 3-4 years after the fact. They can't put a stop payment on it...ever.

Here is how I picture this scam working: Sell something on line....get a USPO and claim its never received. Badger/threaten/convince the buyer to reissue it. Once you receive the new one-cash it like normal. Then take the original one and sign it poorly, sell it, sign it over to someone else to get it cashed.

Keep in mind with no expiration date he could cash this a year later and receive a 100% return on his money...better than the market.

Legally what action could he take? If it were to go to small claims and he claims he never received the money order..but I have proof of payment...who wins?

 

[swalsh411]

I see two possibilities. Either the seller really did not receive the money and from his perspective he's been ripped off or the gun was stolen. The reason I am more inclined to believe the later is because of the line about his wife and that you got it at well under market value. He didn't want to risk selling it to a pawn store or gun store in case the serial was run and it came back stolen.

 

[Pugman]

I see two possibilities. Either the seller really did not receive the money and from his perspective he's been ripped off or the gun was stolen. The reason I am more inclined to believe the later is because of the line about his wife and that you got it at well under market value. He didn't want to risk selling it to a pawn store or gun store in case the serial was run and it came back stolen.

But the firearm cleared two FFLs? Can the firearm be declared stolen now?

My question is on how things sit now.

1) Can he sue me for nonpayment? Once a payment has been sent via the USPO has my obligation as a buyer been met.
2) A second thing I forgot to mention until now was the seller was insistent it be a USPO MO. Conversations with three USPO Accounting Helpdesk (who thought there was such a thing?) have had all three say they have seen money orders come through 3-4 years later. Imagine 5 years from now I get a bill?
3) Since he shipped it from Kansas City and I received it in Wisconsin; if he wants to sue I presume the case would need to be heard here?

So here is what I know:

I did mail the payment
The P.O Box is registered to him (I spoke with the postmaster down there to confirm it)
The letter was properly addressed & stamped
It has not been returned to me
My local post office is too small to have an actual mechanical sorter; speaking with the postmaster in KC he has conveyed nothing has been chewed up in their sorter...those I have gotten back in the mail in baggies.
The money order has not cleared the post office yet--you would think if it was misdelivered or stolen they would cash it as quickly as possible don't you think?

 

[swalsh411]

The fact that the seller absolutely insisted on a USPS money order reaffirms my suspicion it was a scam or the gun was stolen.

I don't know if an FFL processing a handgun transfer is required to check to see if it's stolen. I have heard many times that most pawn shops do because they don't want to be caught with hot guns on the shelf.

Yes he could sue you. He may or may not win if he does. It's pure speculation at this point. You need to decide whether you believe the seller or your instincts as far as what happened to that money order.

edit: Has the seller been back on that forum to complain about you (allegedly) ripping him off? If not that's another check in the "scam / stolen" column. Usually if a deal falls though for whatever reason the wronged party will go back to the forum and warn everybody not to deal with that person.

 

[FlyingRon]

I have heard many times that most pawn shops do because they don't want to be caught with hot guns on the shelf.

In many states it's not that they don't want to be caught, but the are required by law to do so. PawnShops are lousy places to sell stolen goods at these days.

 

[threejet]

Hello...I believe Pugman is referring to me

Good Evening,

First let me introduce myself...my name is Jim and I'm the individual that Pugman is referring to in this thread.

Pugman and I had reached a deal to transfer the possession of one Glock handgun for $505 in December of 2009.

We had excellent communication, both verbally and written, that helped seal the deal. He asked me to please send the firearm to his FFL prior to my receiving the money, as he wanted to try and get the transfer completed by a certain time. He gave me his word that he would get me the funds as quickly as possible...but I was to ship the gun prior to receiving payment.

I did a quick (and not very scientific) background check and found his posts to be concise and well written. He also seemed like a very upstanding individual and he gave me his word. So I went forth and sent the firearm.

The Glock was legally transferred from my FFL to his FFL. Pugman received the firearm is good time and he indicated that he was very pleased with the transaction.

I, on the other hand waited and waited. There were several large storms at the time, plus it was around Christmas time, so I just figured that things were moving a little slow.

However, after a couple of weeks, I contacted Pugman and informed him that I had not received the payment. Pugman took charge and started looking under every rock to trying to seek a resolution.

He opened a 6401 form which begins a trace on the "lost money order" and allows the originator to seek a refund. After sixty (60) days, if the MO has not been cashed, the funds can be refunded to the person identified on the 6401 form (in this case Pugman).

According to the Postal Service, if the original intended person cashes the MO now, the USPS would go after Pugman for reimbursement. If someone other than me (Jim) alters the MO and cashes it, the USPS would send the copy to Pugman. This would then be a case of mail fraud, which is a felony, and the Postmaster would sick the dogs. In this case, Pugman would not be held liable, as this was not who the MO was intended to go to.

Unfortunately, there were no easy ways to resolve this issue. As Pugman points out, USPS money orders are not all that there cracked up to be. I was under the impression that they were safe and they seem to be preferred by most others on the website were the transaction occurred.

I have since found out that Pugman has received his money ($505) via the findings from the 6401 audit. He also has the firearm that I sold him.

I have nothing...but frustration.

I believe that Pugman sent the MO. What happened to it...only the USPS knows.

I do feel a bit upset that I'm now considered to be part of a scam. I am not that type of person, and to be truthful, it hurts.

I have tried to contact Pugman via calls to his office and home to no avail.

Pugman, if you're reading this please call me back. I would like to talk to you about this to see if we can find a way to resolve this issue.

Sorry everyone for the long post...just felt like I needed to tell my side of the story.

Thank You!
Jim

One last thing...Pugman, I thought I would answer your questions outlined in your initial posting...my responses are in a bold font.

Now my thoughts:

I think its a scam. First, the site I bought it on this poster has a total of 26 posts where I have several thousand. All his posts on in the For Sale section. I have two small children...one with Down Syndrome. My wife would kill me if I sat around all night on the computer. I already get in enough trouble as it is.
The whole "wife" line just strikes me as off. Listen, I always have my little "nest egg" that I use to purchase my toys. I take very good care of my family and they want for nothing, however, my wife would not appreciate the fact that I spend so much on my toys. The PO box allows me to send and receive funds/products without her knowledge. Until she see's it and then wonders, "where did you get that".

The item I purchased was deeply discounted...the whole if its too good to be true is seeming spot on here. Again, I don't have time to bicker with people wanting to "kick the tires". I believe I priced the handgun a little below value so that it would move quickly. It did and Pugman got a good deal. Maybe that is why I'm an engineer and not a salesman!

Because the MO has no expiration date, he could pressure potential buyers into reissuing it and cashing the original several months or even years later. If he did, I would get a bill from the USPO and at that time could file a fraud complaint--but I'm still liable for the money? According to the USPS, if anyone other than me cashes the MO, than they've committed fraud and will be in a place where they do not want to be.

Although we all know the post office loses stuff and its a one liner joke for many people, how many people here have truely had something lost? Me...

The USPO in Kansas City did confirm its his box. So the letter hasn't been returned to me, the address is good, and he is saying it wasn't received. Yes, that is correct.

 

[justalayman]

not to say you are a scammer, threejet, but if you were a scammer, wouldn't it make sense to say exactly what you have in your post? It's not like scammers just roll over and say "ok, you caught me. I was trying to scam you. My bad"


what a conundrum.

 

[threejet]

not to say you are a scammer, threejet, but if you were a scammer, wouldn't it make sense to say exactly what you have in your post? It's not like scammers just roll over and say "ok, you caught me. I was trying to scam you. My bad"


what a conundrum.

For the first time in my life, I am going through the "guilty until proven innocent" scenario...and it is frustrating!

I am never going to convince anyone in this forum...I just wanted to get my story out there. Remember, there are always two sides to every story!

I am feeling more like the scam is on me!

 

[justalayman]

For the first time in my life, I am going through the "guilty until proven innocent" scenario...and it is frustrating!

I am never going to convince anyone in this forum...I just wanted to get my story out there. Remember, there are always two sides to every story!

I am feeling more like the scam is on me!

did you read the part where I was not stating you were scamming the guy?

I just wanted to point out that a scammer often continues to claim they are the one getting scammed.


If it makes you feel better, I'll lay out a scenario where it looks like pugman is the scammer:

you made the deal. He convinced you to send the gun prior to receiving payment. He buys a USPS MO and CLAIMS to have sent it but really didn't. He goes through the motions like he is trying to figure out where it is, just as he has. He makes a claim with the USPS for a lost MO and receives his money back and in the interim, he has received your gun. He argues he sent the money.

Feel better now? I wasn't trying to put the blame on either party. Either party could have scammed the other in this situation. Both parties could be totally honest in this situation. I don't know either of you so I have nothing to support either version.


As it stands now, you have a claim, in court if you want, against Pugman. If pugman pays you and you actually do have the first MO and cash it, Pugman would have a claim against you.

I will tell you that you most likely would prevail if you were to sue but that is a costly endeavor due to the distance between the two of you. Even if you would prevail in court, you would still have to collect unless the court would allow a rescission of the sale and return the gun to you.

So, it gets down to how the two of you will settle this. Somebody is going to have to either have faith the other person is being honest and do what they need to do to settle up, somebody is going to have to sue, or you just leave things like they are.

what happens is going to be between the two of you guys.