What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? MO
Seems like a fairly straightforward issue, but I'm having trouble finding a simple answer, so I may be wrong, or may just not be asking the correct question. . .
I'll include lots of details.
In January 2002, I joined a local martial arts school, signed a membership agreement, and paid 6 months in advance by check. Got no receipt, and no copy of the agreement, but didn't worry about it at the time. I've never had a problem with paying bills and/or debts, and don't tend to worry about potential conflicts unless something makes me uneasy going into a situation. In this case, nothing did, so I took no steps to obtain a paper trail. . . .
Left the school well before completion of the first six months, made no contact with them, and chalked it up as a bad decision and lesson learned. Made no attempt to get any money back, and considered it a closed issue.
Sometime in the fall of 2003, I was contacted by the "umbrella" organization that runs the school, and informed that I had an outstanding balance, because my membership had never been cancelled. I wasn't happy about it, but agreed to pay, based on my failure to take steps to insure that my membership got cancelled. I obtained a statement of account from them, dated May 2003, showing monthly charges for August, September, and Octoboer 2002, and termination in October. (They had terminated the membership 9 months after my intial sign-up, in other words, but the statement was dated 6 months later than that, and their contact with me was another 5-6 months later still.) I wrote a check for the amount owed, sent it to them, and wrote "paid in full" on the statement, just so I'd remember what it was if I ever cleaned out my files. Again, got no receipt, but didn't really expect one, and didn't ask. The check cleared a couple of weeks later, and I thought no more about the incident.
Last week, 19 additional months having passed, I got a phone call from someone claiming to be with the organization, stating that I needed to make arrangements to pay the outstanding balance (exact amount paid in the second check 19 months before). I verified (verbally) that he was talking about the same balance that had shown on the May 2003 statement, and informed him that I had paid it, and would be glad to furnish proof. Hung up with the impression that this would be satisfactory.
Looked for and found the check carbon, and the bank statement showing it had cleared. Same person called back next day, asking if I had the proof, and stated that he'd call back this week to make arrangements for getting copies of the check and statement to him.
Called me back Saturday night, and his/their position had changed. They are no longer satisfied with my evidence of payment, and are taking the position that, since they have no record of payment, I never paid, and still owe the debt. The only thing they are willing to accept now is payment, and they are stating that they will be taking the matter to court as soon as next week, and that I can expect garnishment, an entry on my credit report, etc. . . . (Caller's basic statement is "You paid someone, but we never got it; in effect, someone stole the money from you, which is unfortunate, but doesn't change the fact that you owe us".) I told him he was welcome to the check carbon and bank statement, but wasn't getting any money out of me on a debt I'd already paid.
Another call today, to see if I'd changed my mind, and reiterate the threat that this would go to court if I didn't pay them this week. We kept it civil, but neither party seems willing to budge. I'm not paying a dime without legal advice to do so or a court order. So, I halfway expect to get a summons in the near future.
My initial response is "bring it on". The prospect of court doesn't particularly worry me, as, by everything I've read, the burden of proof will be on them, and the presence of such evidence as I have would seem to outweigh their absence of evidence, as their entire case is "we have no record of payment" - (I can come up with half a dozen possible explanations for their lack of records, none of which I see as placing any obligation on me. The best argument I can come up with for their position would be to present financial records of their general billing and accounting practices that would be sufficient to establish a reasonable expectation that a payment received would have been properly posted and recorded. I doubt they could provide such, if that's even a valid argument that might be admissible, which I don't claim to know.)
So, the real question is this: is my optimism founded on sound legal principles, or am I missing some important consideration? I have no argument with paying the debt, and am not disputing the charges - at this point I'm not even really concerned with what appear to me to be shoddy business practices, and questionable collection efforts - I simply know that I already paid it, and think that ought to be provable in court, if they even follow through with their threat (it also won't surprise me if they don't). Am I wrong?
A couple of final points of info: I have ordered a copy of the actual check from my bank, to have proof of the endorsement as well, but haven't received it yet. And thus far, nothing has transpired in writing; it's all been verbal. I asked for a written letter outlining their claims in the latest conversation, and was told I'd see it in writing when they filed it in court - I assume he was referring to a summons. He claims they have made numerous attempts to contact me in writing, but I've seen nothing. I also asked to speak with his supervisor, so I could make that request to him as well, and was given a name and number in another city. I have no definite mailing address to send a letter to, although I can look up a general contact address on the web, I don't feel particularly confident anything I send will get to the right person if I go that route. In fact, thus far I have no proof the guy is even who he says he is, or that he really represents the organization; when I pointed that out, he said "you'll just have to take my word for it". I managed to keep from laughing out loud. As I said, a lot about the situation makes me think it'll never go to court, and they'll just quit calling, but I'd like to know if there are any other considerations I need to know about in case it does. . . .
Thanks.
Seems like a fairly straightforward issue, but I'm having trouble finding a simple answer, so I may be wrong, or may just not be asking the correct question. . .
I'll include lots of details.In January 2002, I joined a local martial arts school, signed a membership agreement, and paid 6 months in advance by check. Got no receipt, and no copy of the agreement, but didn't worry about it at the time. I've never had a problem with paying bills and/or debts, and don't tend to worry about potential conflicts unless something makes me uneasy going into a situation. In this case, nothing did, so I took no steps to obtain a paper trail. . . .
Left the school well before completion of the first six months, made no contact with them, and chalked it up as a bad decision and lesson learned. Made no attempt to get any money back, and considered it a closed issue.
Sometime in the fall of 2003, I was contacted by the "umbrella" organization that runs the school, and informed that I had an outstanding balance, because my membership had never been cancelled. I wasn't happy about it, but agreed to pay, based on my failure to take steps to insure that my membership got cancelled. I obtained a statement of account from them, dated May 2003, showing monthly charges for August, September, and Octoboer 2002, and termination in October. (They had terminated the membership 9 months after my intial sign-up, in other words, but the statement was dated 6 months later than that, and their contact with me was another 5-6 months later still.) I wrote a check for the amount owed, sent it to them, and wrote "paid in full" on the statement, just so I'd remember what it was if I ever cleaned out my files. Again, got no receipt, but didn't really expect one, and didn't ask. The check cleared a couple of weeks later, and I thought no more about the incident.
Last week, 19 additional months having passed, I got a phone call from someone claiming to be with the organization, stating that I needed to make arrangements to pay the outstanding balance (exact amount paid in the second check 19 months before). I verified (verbally) that he was talking about the same balance that had shown on the May 2003 statement, and informed him that I had paid it, and would be glad to furnish proof. Hung up with the impression that this would be satisfactory.
Looked for and found the check carbon, and the bank statement showing it had cleared. Same person called back next day, asking if I had the proof, and stated that he'd call back this week to make arrangements for getting copies of the check and statement to him.
Called me back Saturday night, and his/their position had changed. They are no longer satisfied with my evidence of payment, and are taking the position that, since they have no record of payment, I never paid, and still owe the debt. The only thing they are willing to accept now is payment, and they are stating that they will be taking the matter to court as soon as next week, and that I can expect garnishment, an entry on my credit report, etc. . . . (Caller's basic statement is "You paid someone, but we never got it; in effect, someone stole the money from you, which is unfortunate, but doesn't change the fact that you owe us".) I told him he was welcome to the check carbon and bank statement, but wasn't getting any money out of me on a debt I'd already paid.
Another call today, to see if I'd changed my mind, and reiterate the threat that this would go to court if I didn't pay them this week. We kept it civil, but neither party seems willing to budge. I'm not paying a dime without legal advice to do so or a court order. So, I halfway expect to get a summons in the near future.
My initial response is "bring it on". The prospect of court doesn't particularly worry me, as, by everything I've read, the burden of proof will be on them, and the presence of such evidence as I have would seem to outweigh their absence of evidence, as their entire case is "we have no record of payment" - (I can come up with half a dozen possible explanations for their lack of records, none of which I see as placing any obligation on me. The best argument I can come up with for their position would be to present financial records of their general billing and accounting practices that would be sufficient to establish a reasonable expectation that a payment received would have been properly posted and recorded. I doubt they could provide such, if that's even a valid argument that might be admissible, which I don't claim to know.)
So, the real question is this: is my optimism founded on sound legal principles, or am I missing some important consideration? I have no argument with paying the debt, and am not disputing the charges - at this point I'm not even really concerned with what appear to me to be shoddy business practices, and questionable collection efforts - I simply know that I already paid it, and think that ought to be provable in court, if they even follow through with their threat (it also won't surprise me if they don't). Am I wrong?
A couple of final points of info: I have ordered a copy of the actual check from my bank, to have proof of the endorsement as well, but haven't received it yet. And thus far, nothing has transpired in writing; it's all been verbal. I asked for a written letter outlining their claims in the latest conversation, and was told I'd see it in writing when they filed it in court - I assume he was referring to a summons. He claims they have made numerous attempts to contact me in writing, but I've seen nothing. I also asked to speak with his supervisor, so I could make that request to him as well, and was given a name and number in another city. I have no definite mailing address to send a letter to, although I can look up a general contact address on the web, I don't feel particularly confident anything I send will get to the right person if I go that route. In fact, thus far I have no proof the guy is even who he says he is, or that he really represents the organization; when I pointed that out, he said "you'll just have to take my word for it". I managed to keep from laughing out loud.
As I said, a lot about the situation makes me think it'll never go to court, and they'll just quit calling, but I'd like to know if there are any other considerations I need to know about in case it does. . . .Thanks.