Restitution problem, need help.

[Arrentot]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? WI

I hope I'm putting this in the right forum. Anyway, I, together with my family recently went to a ski resort. My wife rented me a snowboard and I lost it through theft. What happened is I left the snowboard together with other people's board and ski outside of the resort restaurant since it is not allowed inside the said premises. Went out and the board wasn't there anymore. I immediately reported it to the rental office and was advised that if the board wasn't found I will not get the $10 security deposit that my wife paid early on that's it.

The next day I received a call from the resort's security office telling me that I would need to pay for the board since it was not returned to them, so I went back again to the resort to tell the security guy in person what happened. I asked to review the CCTV footage since I placed the board near one of the cameras. We saw the board being taken away by an unidentified man 30mins after I left it. I told the security guy if I can talk to the owner in person but he refused saying the owner doesn't deal with the customer instead he promised me that he'll ask the owner or the manager to lower down the initial asking price which is $250, the guy then "went and ask the owner" and told me that the owner will be willing to settle for $200. I try to haggle to lower the price a bit more but the guy said he'll let me know so I went home.

A couple of days later I received a call saying he's from the resort security department and is "a cop" informing me that I should pay the $200 and then proceeded to threaten me that if I don't pay I shouldn't be surprised if a cop shows up at my door and arrest me for theft. When I replied that I shouldn't be arrested for theft since I didn't steal anything they resorted to saying they will file a restitution for the board in which my name will be included. I did some reading and I think that it doesn't hold much ground and also read that there is a law against threatening or accusing someone of a crime so I know what they did is not right.

The problem is I have a unique situation and explain it to them thoroughly, I am not allowed to work right now because of visa restrictions. I don't want to put the burden of paying for the stolen snowboard to my wife when she already paid for everything and it's not her fault that the board was taken, so I am trying to settle the amount for less than a $100 because I did some research on how much it cost and found out that I can get a board brand new online for $250 or less and I'm trying to reason out with the man that since the board was already used a lot of times probably less than a 100 bucks seems fair, besides I only have $100 in my savings.

I really don't know what to do. I don't want my wife to pay for it even though she can and be done with this. She has done a lot for me financially and I don't think it's fair for her to take up the responsibility of paying for it. I couldn't sleep at night thinking if this could send me to jail or would I be paying more on what the resort is asking if they went ahead with the restitution claim, like court fees, lawyers fee, etc. I am willing to go to jail if needed be and knowing from my own experience that having no money increases the likelihood of jail time, I fully accept the consequence of my clumsiness but I just want to know if there's anything else I can do besides trying to haggle for the price since the resort management is not willing to take my offer. This is putting a lot of strain on my family, having two daughters to take care off while thinking of what will happen if this problem is not solve. I couldn't focus on my role as a stay-at-home father having this dilemma going through my head 24hours a day. I need help...

P.S. I asked for a copy of the rental agreement so I would know to what extent my responsibility goes as far as stolen boards are concern. I don't remember signing anything about snowboard rentals nor receiving a copy of it. They said they will send me one this coming week. I still haven't talk to the owner nor the manager its always people from the security department who always seems eager to handle this matter.

 

[BL]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? WI

I hope I'm putting this in the right forum. Anyway, I, together with my family recently went to a ski resort. My wife rented me a snowboard and I lost it through theft. What happened is I left the snowboard together with other people's board and ski outside of the resort restaurant since it is not allowed inside the said premises. Went out and the board wasn't there anymore. I immediately reported it to the rental office and was advised that if the board wasn't found I will not get the $10 security deposit that my wife paid early on that's it. The next day I received a call from the resort's security office telling me that I would need to pay for the board since it was not returned to them, so I went back again to the resort to tell the security guy in person what happened. I asked to review the CCTV footage since I placed the board near one of the cameras. We saw the board being taken away by an unidentified man 30mins after I left it. I told the security guy if I can talk to the owner in person but he refused saying the owner doesn't deal with the customer instead he promised me that he'll ask the owner or the manager to lower down the initial asking price which is $250, the guy then "went and ask the owner" and told me that the owner will be willing to settle for $200. I try to haggle to lower the price a bit more but the guy said he'll let me know so I went home. A couple of days later I received a call saying he's from the resort security department and is "a cop" informing me that I should pay the $200 and then proceeded to threaten me that if I don't pay I shouldn't be surprised if a cop shows up at my door and arrest me for theft. When I replied that I shouldn't be arrested for theft since I didn't steal anything they resorted to saying they will file a restitution for the board in which my name will be included. I did some reading and I think that it doesn't hold much ground and also read that there is a law against threatening or accusing someone of a crime so I know what they did is not right. The problem is I have a unique situation and explain it to them thoroughly, I am not allowed to work right now because of visa restrictions. I don't want to put the burden of paying for the stolen snowboard to my wife when she already paid for everything and it's not her fault that the board was taken, so I am trying to settle the amount for less than a $100 because I did some research on how much it cost and found out that I can get a board brand new online for $250 or less and I'm trying to reason out with the man that since the board was already used a lot of times probably less than a 100 bucks seems fair, besides I only have $100 in my savings. I really don't know what to do. I don't want my wife to pay for it even though she can and be done with this. She has done a lot for me financially and I don't think it's fair for her to take up the responsibility of paying for it. I couldn't sleep at night thinking if this could send me to jail or would I be paying more on what the resort is asking if they went ahead with the restitution claim, like court fees, lawyers fee, etc. I am willing to go to jail if needed be and knowing from my own experience that having no money increases the likelihood of jail time, I fully accept the consequence of my clumsiness but I just want to know if there's anything else I can do besides trying to haggle for the price since the resort management is not willing to take my offer. This is putting a lot of strain on my family, having two daughters to take care off while thinking of what will happen if this problem is not solve. I couldn't focus on my role as a stay-at-home father having this dilemma going through my head 24hours a day. I need help...

P.S. I asked for a copy of the rental agreement so I would know to what extent my responsibility goes as far as stolen boards are concern. I don't remember signing anything about snowboard rentals nor receiving a copy of it. They said they will send me one this coming week. I still haven't talk to the owner nor the manager its always people from the security department who always seems eager to handle this matter.

Edit your post to put some paragraphs in it .

 

[swalsh411]

First of all, stop worrying about it so much. This is only a snowboard. You are not going to jail. At worst you will be sued in small claims court. Don't let it ruin time with your kids or give you an ulcer.

I would offer them $150 to meet halfway. Your wife, the woman who has pledged her life to you and you to her in matrimony until death do you part, will be willing to cough up the money.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

If you only have $100, you should not be engaging in activities you cannot afford as evidenced by your inability to pay. It is not unreasonable for them to request $200 for the time involved in processing and replacing the board YOU WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR. This is the US, the law is enforced differently from your country apparently. Pay them quick or you might find the amount goes up, due to the lost rental fees.

 

[Arrentot]

First of all, stop worrying about it so much. This is only a snowboard. You are not going to jail. At worst you will be sued in small claims court. Don't let it ruin time with your kids or give you an ulcer.

I would offer them $150 to meet halfway. Your wife, the woman who has pledged her life to you and you to her in matrimony until death do you part, will be willing to cough up the money.

I am trying to offer them $150 at first but they're not budging in. They were adamant that $200 is the best offer they can give. Well like what I said, my wife is gonna pay it if I want her to but I don't wanna pass on the responsibility to her for I feel its unfair. Anyway thanks for the advice I'm hoping that going through court would not increase the amount that I would have to pay.

 

[Arrentot]

If you only have $100, you should not be engaging in activities you cannot afford as evidenced by your inability to pay. It is not unreasonable for them to request $200 for the time involved in processing and replacing the board YOU WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR. This is the US, the law is enforced differently from your country apparently. Pay them quick or you might find the amount goes up, due to the lost rental fees.

I understand that this is America buddy and no need to emphasize on that. Laws and almost everything else is different that's why I ask for help or advice on what to do. So if I understand your point correctly, if my wife decided to go skiing or snowboarding then I should just tell her I can't because I can't pay for it if something happens to it? So I'll just stay at home and engage in activities like, running, going to the park and/or do other things that won't require me to pay anything if something bad happen? In short stop trying things that you would enjoy and requires you to pay up "just in case something happens"?

I also said that I AM RESPONSIBLE for the board so again no need to emphasize on that. I don't remember signing anything regarding lost or stolen board so that's why I'm trying to reason out with the resort to lower what they're asking. And since my wife paid for a security deposit, which "back home" is like an insurance just in case something happens, I would be free from MY RESPONSIBILITY of paying for it at retail price and NO they didn't refund us the security deposit. Apparently it looks like it's different here in the US. Surprise, surprise!

I'm not here to give excuses but to ask for advice, I haven't been involve in any court proceeding in my entire life and I haven't been a victim of theft "back home" so I have no idea how the process works. Having read a lot of crazy stories/articles about how "some" people here has lost their common sense it's not hard to be worried on what will happen to a simple stolen snowboard.

I don't mean to be rude and sound condescending, I appreciate your advice... I just don't agree with you. I made a stupid mistake of leaving the board, a stupid mistake of doing what other people did on that resort which is to leave your board without locking it. I've learned my lesson, actually lessons, the lessons are to have fun, enjoy things that otherwise you wouldn't find back home, always ask for a written agreement with signatures on it, business is business and money is the only language it speaks and be careful because thieves lurk everywhere.

 

[Ohiogal]

I am trying to offer them $150 at first but they're not budging in. They were adamant that $200 is the best offer they can give. Well like what I said, my wife is gonna pay it if I want her to but I don't wanna pass on the responsibility to her for I feel its unfair. Anyway thanks for the advice I'm hoping that going through court would not increase the amount that I would have to pay.

Did you file a police report that it was stolen?

 

[Arrentot]

Did you file a police report that it was stolen?

No, I didn't think of that. Do you think I could still do it?

 

[cyjeff]

You could, but it really wouldn't make much difference.

Think of it this way. You are going down the mountain, hit a rock and break the board. You didn't intend to break it, but you are still responsible for replacing it.

You didn't expect it to get stolen. The resort has the option to go after the thief (whom they can't find) or you, whom they have an easy way of finding. Your rental agreement - unless it was created by a legal moron - has you responsible for the return of the board in good condition.

Now, having said that, the fact that there was a deposit is interesting. Usually, a deposit covers accident and loss. However, this would be better explained in the rental agreement that you don't have. When I have rented skis, they made me attach a credit card to the rental in case I break or keep them.

Therefore, here is what I would do. Offer the resort $100. Tell them that this amount plus the deposit is your counteroffer. If they refuse, tell them to take you to court. Tell them to be prepared to produce the entire rental agreement in court and to be ready to explain all of the nuances. Unfortunately, this may be the only way you get to see the agreement.... I am assuming you have already torn apart everything you were wearing that day to find it. See if anyone else in your party rented from the same place to see if they have a copy of THEIR rental agreement.

Finally, if they are taking you to court, start scouring ebay and craigslist looking for a similar board in similar shape. See what the going rate for a chewed up rental snowboard is. If it is anything like the skis I have rented from time to time, the value will be far below replacement value.

Again, all of the above may be worthless depending upon the nature of the rental agreement you signed. You may have signed a document that said you had to pay full replacement value. For all you know, you promised your first born male child to them if you lost the board.

Find that agreement. Make the call first.

 

[Arrentot]

You could, but it really wouldn't make much difference.

Think of it this way. You are going down the mountain, hit a rock and break the board. You didn't intend to break it, but you are still responsible for replacing it.

You didn't expect it to get stolen. The resort has the option to go after the thief (whom they can't find) or you, whom they have an easy way of finding. Your rental agreement - unless it was created by a legal moron - has you responsible for the return of the board in good condition.

Now, having said that, the fact that there was a deposit is interesting. Usually, a deposit covers accident and loss. However, this would be better explained in the rental agreement that you don't have. When I have rented skis, they made me attach a credit card to the rental in case I break or keep them.

Therefore, here is what I would do. Offer the resort $100. Tell them that this amount plus the deposit is your counteroffer. If they refuse, tell them to take you to court. Tell them to be prepared to produce the entire rental agreement in court and to be ready to explain all of the nuances. Unfortunately, this may be the only way you get to see the agreement.... I am assuming you have already torn apart everything you were wearing that day to find it. See if anyone else in your party rented from the same place to see if they have a copy of THEIR rental agreement.

Finally, if they are taking you to court, start scouring ebay and craigslist looking for a similar board in similar shape. See what the going rate for a chewed up rental snowboard is. If it is anything like the skis I have rented from time to time, the value will be far below replacement value.

Again, all of the above may be worthless depending upon the nature of the rental agreement you signed. You may have signed a document that said you had to pay full replacement value. For all you know, you promised your first born male child to them if you lost the board.

Find that agreement. Make the call first.

Actually I tried calling them regarding the agreement form but they said that they don't really have a written one and everything is done through a computer which I remember I did, when I registered there. However I don't remember what is in the agreement. I also tried calling them and tried several times to haggle for the price but the lowest they can offer is $200 and according to them the board and the bindings cost more than $500. I found a board with the same size and brand but with a different graphics and it cost approximately $200+ together with the bindings, all brand new. I also tried looking at other ski resort's rental agreement and looks like all of them are asking for full retail value once the board is lost or broken. I don't know if full retail value means how much the owner paid for it or how much it is on the current market. I also found this WI law online regarding restitution and I'm having trouble understanding it.

973.20(2)
(2) If a crime considered at sentencing resulted in damage to or loss or destruction of property, the restitution order may require that the defendant:

973.20(2)(a)
(a) Return the property to the owner or owner's designee; or

973.20(2)(b)
(b) If return of the property under par. (a) is impossible, impractical or inadequate, pay the owner or owner's designee the reasonable repair or replacement cost or the greater of:

973.20(2)(b)1.
1. The value of the property on the date of its damage, loss or destruction; or

973.20(2)(b)2.
2. The value of the property on the date of sentencing, less the value of any part of the property returned, as of the date of its return. The value of retail merchandise shall be its retail value.

 

[cyjeff]

Okay, forget that WI law you quoted. It means nothing here. That is for restitution after a criminal act. Unless YOU stole the board, it doesn't apply to you.

This is a civil not a criminal matter.

Are you saying they are denying you a copy of the computerized rental agreement you had to sign prior to the rental of the equipment? Demand a copy before you do anything else.... preferably via email so that you can show the court that your request for a copy was denied.

Say that without a copy of your agreement with your signature you are not clear on the limits of your liability.

The rental agreement is a contract between you and them. If you were not given a copy at the time - and by all that is cheesy and curly do not ever walk away from signing something without a copy again - get one now.

If they cannot produce a signed copy for you, they may not be able to produce one for a court, either.

 

[Arrentot]

Okay, forget that WI law you quoted. It means nothing here. That is for restitution after a criminal act. Unless YOU stole the board, it doesn't apply to you.

This is a civil not a criminal matter.

Are you saying they are denying you a copy of the computerized rental agreement you had to sign prior to the rental of the equipment? Demand a copy before you do anything else.... preferably via email so that you can show the court that your request for a copy was denied.

Say that without a copy of your agreement with your signature you are not clear on the limits of your liability.

The rental agreement is a contract between you and them. If you were not given a copy at the time - and by all that is cheesy and curly do not ever walk away from signing something without a copy again - get one now.

If they cannot produce a signed copy for you, they may not be able to produce one for a court, either.

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it. I am being careful nowadays before signing anything, I'm taking my time to read thoroughly every contract or agreement that I sign since this incident happened.

The thing is they have it online, like when you do an online agreement where you just need to click "I agree". That's the only thing I can remember doing. I also asked for the agreement form last week and until now I have yet to receive it. I'm going to call them later and remind them to send me one.

What do you think will happen if they only have an online agreement? I believe they can still use it but how is it going to play out?

 

[cyjeff]

That's the thing.

They will need to produce a written copy complete with your signature for the court. If they cannot produce that, then they can't sue you.

 

[Arrentot]

That's the thing.

They will need to produce a written copy complete with your signature for the court. If they cannot produce that, then they can't sue you.

Alright thanks. I'm just gonna update you guys and see what happens.

I called them and said they're gonna send it right away but I still haven't received it.

 

[swalsh411]

That's the thing.

They will need to produce a written copy complete with your signature for the court. If they cannot produce that, then they can't sue you.

Don't be silly. This is the 21st century. Online "check this box if you agree" agreements between a merchant and a customer, if properly written, are just as binding as pen-on-ink. The OP would have to testify under oath that he never agreed to those terms, which unless he is willing to committ purjury he can't do.

And why are you giving the OP bad advice like "they can't sue you?". Anybody can sue anybody for anything. I think you meant they can not successfully sue you.