competitor using images

[theloop]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? fl

I have a competitor (ex-employee) that is taking credit for events I hosted. The ex-employee did design some of the features of the event, but she was contracted as an employee. She now has pictures on her site implying that her new company did the event. I believe this is confusing potential clients. What type of law does this fall under, and what can I do to force the other company to remove the images?

 

[FlyingRon]

The images are property of whoever took them. By copyright alone you can't do anything about other poeple's photos (unless you or your employees took them and they were just appropriated by the competitor).

If the event has some sort of trademark rights you can assert that they can not use the event title in a way that indicates it was their event.

 

[theloop]

The images are property of whoever took them. By copyright alone you can't do anything about other poeple's photos (unless you or your employees took them and they were just appropriated by the competitor).

If the event has some sort of trademark rights you can assert that they can not use the event title in a way that indicates it was their event.

Thanks

Basically, anyone can come to one of my events, snap some photos, and take complete credit for it. What about other similar examples? Let's say a dress designer uses pictures of a famous designers work. Can he/she imply that the dress was made by them through images? Another example would be a home builder. Let's say I wanted to start a construction company. Could I just go to a competitor's model units and take pictures and say I built them? The event should be considered a product of my services. Can anyone take credit for a product they did not make. Let's say I wanted to do custom motorcycle work. I go to a motorcycle convention and see bikes that cost more than $100,000 to design and make. Can I take a photo while I'm there to take credit for the hard work and materials that went into it? Of course, I wouldn't show any company logos or trademarks.

Are all of these acceptable business practices from a legal standpoint?

Thanks

 

[theloop]

My issues probably do not fall under copyright laws. Could someone point me into the right direction.

Thanks

 

[justalayman]

actually copyright is, I believe, the correct concern.

The ex-employee did design some of the features of the event, but she was contracted as an employee.

she still has a right to show her work as her work.

Let's say a dress designer uses pictures of a famous designers work. Can he/she imply that the dress was made by them through images?

I go to a motorcycle convention and see bikes that cost more than $100,000 to design and make. Can I take a photo while I'm there to take credit for the hard work and materials that went into it?

but these are not analogous comparisons to your situation.There is no contribution in the dress or motorcycle situation. There apparently is with yours.

 

[theloop]

OK

Let's say I was the framer of a house. I was contracted by a builder to frame a home. I decide to open a business as a builder of customs homes (direct competitor). Can I put up images of an entire house implying I built it? This would imply that I did the drywall, roofing, interior furnishings, etc.

What if I was a tailor and put together a dress for Vera Wang? Can I take pictures of the dress implying that it is one of my company's dresses?

Let's say I work for Harley motorcycles and am an employee that puts on the tires. I decide to start my own motorcycle company. Can I take a picture of a Harley (I put the tire on after all) and imply that my company built that bike?

The employee did a segment of the event and is taking credit for the entire event. She isn't taking personal credit for what she did. Her company is taking credit for what she did and what everyone else did.



It just doesn't seem like fair business practices.

 

[justalayman]

. The ex-employee did design some of the features

again, none of your examples are a similar comparison.

Let's say I was the framer of a house. I was contracted by a builder to frame a home. I decide to open a business as a builder of customs homes (direct competitor). Can I put up images of an entire house implying I built it? This would imply that I did the drywall, roofing, interior furnishings, etc.

Let's say the architect designed the home and the builder built it. They each have the right to display their work.

What if I was a tailor and put together a dress for Vera Wang? Can I take pictures of the dress implying that it is one of my company's dresses?

you can display the dress to show your workmanship

Let's say I work for Harley motorcycles and am an employee that puts on the tires. I decide to start my own motorcycle company. Can I take a picture of a Harley (I put the tire on after all) and imply that my company built that bike?

No but if you were the designer of the wheel or tire or some other element, you can display your design,

The employee did a segment of the event and is taking credit for the entire event. She isn't taking personal credit for what she did. Her company is taking credit for what she did and what everyone else did.

from what you have stated, she isn't actually claiming credit for any of it, merely displaying the entire event.

Due to the specificity of what she can and cannot display and how she would be able to represent the work shown, contact a lawyer that can look at the pictures, you can describe her input into any display and he can advise you on your options.

 

[theloop]

again, none of your examples are a similar comparison.


Let's say the architect designed the home and the builder built it. They each have the right to display their work.

you can display the dress to show your workmanship

No but if you were the designer of the wheel or tire or some other element, you can display your design,

from what you have stated, she isn't actually claiming credit for any of it, merely displaying the entire event.

Due to the specificity of what she can and cannot display and how she would be able to represent the work shown, contact a lawyer that can look at the pictures, you can describe her input into any display and he can advise you on your options.

Are you 100 percent certain of your assertions? I contacted an attorney, but he would not give me any specifics. He told me that he would send a demand letter with his law offices letter head. He wanted quite a bit of money for this.

I think that the examples are perfect comparison. Your architect example makes sense if the architect is trying to solicit his business doing architecture work. If he starts a home building website (where he does everything from designing the building to building it), then he is implying that he built the house and not just designed it. As far as the motorcycle design goes, I still do not think I'm getting my point across. Even if an employee designed the wheel, that design is property of the company they were working for when it was designed. Furthermore, if he was designing wheels and decided to expand and design an entire motorcycle. How can they just take credit for the whole bike? If he posted the image on Jack's Custom Tires website, it would be somewhat acceptable. If he posted the image on Jack's Custom Bikes, no one can differentiate who designed the bike and who designed the tire. As far as the dress maker goes, they are not showing the image to display work; they are displaying the image implying their newly formed company did the work. That is the point I'm trying to get across. The dress maker isn't starting a business tailoring suggesting her work quality. They are starting a business making dresses and suggesting that they are the ones who made it. I'm almost at my wits end, so I may just give up. I don't think it falls under copyright law. It probably falls under some type of business law. I was hoping to just get pointed in the right direction. I wouldn't have a problem if my ex-employee started a business doing a specific part of events.

 

[The Occultist]

IP law is broken in this country. As long as you don't infringe on the copyright (and by that I mean make duplicates of a work with the copyright holder's permission), then you are allowed to state that a work is your own.

As far as your story about talking to a lawyer, yes, sending legal demands is always the first step, but it sounds like he wasn't willing to offer up the details that make the situation illegal. What did the laywer tell you would happen when the letter got ignored?

 

[justalayman]

=theloop;2597461]Are you 100 percent certain of your assertions? I contacted an attorney, but he would not give me any specifics. He told me that he would send a demand letter with his law offices letter head. He wanted quite a bit of money for this.

and I can find a lawyer that will send the Pres of the US a letter, on the firm letterhead, that due to the fact Obama is not a legal citizen, he has no power to make any decisions that affect me.

Does it mean anything? no. Does it in your case? depending exactly what is going on, maybe, maybe not.

I think that the examples are perfect comparison.

well, I don't.

Your architect example makes sense if the architect is trying to solicit his business doing architecture work. If he starts a home building website (where he does everything from designing the building to building it), then he is implying that he built the house and not just designed i

too messy to deal with so I am not going to try.

t. As far as the motorcycle design goes, I still do not think I'm getting my point across. Even if an employee designed the wheel, that design is property of the company they were working for when it was designed.

but the guy that designed it can still show the motorcycle with his wheel on it. The wheel is his design.

Furthermore, if he was designing wheels and decided to expand and design an entire motorcycle. How can they just take credit for the whole bike?

You have never stated she IS claiming she created the entire set. You said she makes it appear her company did the entire set. There is a differenec.

As far as the dress maker goes, they are not showing the image to display work; they are displaying the image implying their newly formed company did the work

.yet you claimed she designed whatever for that show/party/whatever. Is her work displayed or not?

The dress maker isn't starting a business tailoring suggesting her work quality. They are starting a business making dresses and suggesting that they are the ones who made it.

suggesting, stating, or allowing the viewer to draw their own conclusion?

. I don't think it falls under copyright law. It probably falls under some type of business law. I was hoping to just get pointed in the right direction. I wouldn't have a problem if my ex-employee started a business doing a specific part of events.

Oh, so you admit the problem isn't that she is using your pictures but is a direct competitor to you. Unless she signed a non-compete, that is beyond your control.

 

[theloop]

IP law is broken in this country. As long as you don't infringe on the copyright (and by that I mean make duplicates of a work with the copyright holder's permission), then you are allowed to state that a work is your own.

As far as your story about talking to a lawyer, yes, sending legal demands is always the first step, but it sounds like he wasn't willing to offer up the details that make the situation illegal. What did the laywer tell you would happen when the letter got ignored?

The lawyer stated that any work preformed by employee I have legal rights to. He gave a few examples, but I can not recall them right now. An example would be if I owned an engineering firm. I have an engineer (employee) design a new vehicle using my materials, employees, and other resources. The engineer can not just take the design to my competitor or just start a new business and use my design. I don't think he wanted to give details because there are a lot of DIY types that will try to play pretend lawyer. He was rather expensive. I called around to other attorneys and they all stated similar reasons.I found a guy who would send a cease and desist letter for a fair price. I do not know what the next step would be. I'm sure it would be to file a complaint with my counties court house.

 

[quincy]

I actually addressed some of theloop's concerns in an earlier post - but I didn't like the way I wrote it so I wound up editing it. The editing was taking so long that I finally said screw it , and I deleted my entire post. I will attempt this again.

IF theloop hired this "competitor" as an employee, and the competitor as part of her employ helped with certain aspects of theloop's event (ie. created brochures or flyers or banners or whatever for the event), any work created by the competitor/employee would belong to the theloop/employer. As employer, theloop would hold the copyright in any works created by the employee while the employee was under theloop's employ, barring any agreement to the contrary. The works created would be considered "works made for hire."

IF this was the situation, then this competitor/employee would not be able to use, copy or display the work-for-hire works without permission from theloop, the copyright holder. This would apply to photographs of the created works, as well, as photographs of the works could be seen (potentially) as derivatives.

IF certain work was "commissioned" by theloop to be created by this competitor, and the competitor was working as an independent contractor, then a "work made for hire" agreement needed to be signed by both theloop and the competitor for theloop to retain all copyrights in the works (under most circumstances). If there was no work-made-for-hire agreement signed, then the competitor would hold the copyrights in the works created, and she could reproduce and display the works on her website.

There are several factors that courts consider when deciding whether work created is a work made for hire. Because I am on the verge of deleting this whole post again due to my frequent edits, I will leave it at that and explain more if necessary.

Although nothing legally prevents this competitor from stating that she worked on the event and did suchandsuch while under theloop's employ, she cannot claim the copyrights in the works, or exercise any of the rights that come with having a copyright (ie. copying, publishing) if the works can be considered works made for hire. Those rights would belong to theloop. And this former employee/competitor cannot legally claim, under any circumstances, that the event was hers if it wasn't.

Although the situation described sounds more like unfair business practices, misrepresentation and/or fraud than an infringement matter, both copyright and trademark laws could play into it - depending on the exact business arrangement the competitor and theloop had, and depending on what exactly is displayed and said on the website.

Justalayman said that a review of the website by an attorney would be necessary in order to determine what legal action can be pursued against this competitor, if there is any, and I agree. If there is a legal action to pursue, I agree with TheOcculist that a cease and desist letter could be the cheapest and easiest way to resolve the matter, and certainly a better first step than a lawsuit.


Edit to add: IF there are works that were created by the competitor while under your employ, theloop, you would need to register these works with the Copyright Office prior to bringing any infringement action.

 

[theloop]

and I can find a lawyer that will send the Pres of the US a letter, on the firm letterhead, that due to the fact Obama is not a legal citizen, he has no power to make any decisions that affect me.

Is your opinion based on any formal legal expertise or education? I spoke to a few attorneys and would like to know you expertise before heeding your advice over the advice of professionals. I'm not doubting you, but if I have a slight case, I would like to pursue it.



I haven't heard a strong example from you on exactly what would signify a comparable example. I'm bending over backwards trying to give examples that are relevant to my case. It seems to go over your head, but other people seem to comprehend them quite easily.

too messy to deal with so I am not going to try.

Don't run from it. Take it on.

but the guy that designed it can still show the motorcycle with his wheel on it. The wheel is his design.

Yes, I agree with you. The wheel is the design. The problem is that he is implying that the entire bike is his company's design. If I create an application for the iphone, can I take a picture of an iphone (with my app on the screen) and post an image on a website as a phone manufacturer. I did design the application after all. It doesn't matter that I didn't design the actual phone in the image. I design similar phones. Since I designed the application which is part of the phone, I can make a phone that is comparable. Is that how it works? I trying to get the right example across.

You have never stated she IS claiming she created the entire set. You said she makes it appear her company did the entire set. There is a differenec.

She is showing the pictures to clients stating she did the event. I'm not sure where you are going here. If you go to a manufacturer's website and see a product, do you think that they did not make that product?

yet you claimed she designed whatever for that show/party/whatever. Is her work displayed or not?

Yes, her work is displayed. Her company's work isn't, however. Events are collaborative efforts from many people.

Oh, so you admit the problem isn't that she is using your pictures but is a direct competitor to you. Unless she signed a non-compete, that is beyond your control.

What? Are you an attorney or not? I'm not trying to discredit you, but this last comment shows lack of legal expertise. I do not care if she competes with me as long as she does so fairly. There are laws pertaining to fair business practices. The sad part about it is I really tried to help her and encouraged her to start her own company.

 

[justalayman]

theloop;2597791]The lawyer stated that any work preformed by employee I have legal rights to

.I didn't say differently

He gave a few examples, but I can not recall them right now. An example would be if I owned an engineering firm. I have an engineer (employee) design a new vehicle using my materials, employees, and other resources. The engineer can not just take the design to my competitor or just start a new business and use my design.

Ok but what does that have to do with the situation at hand?

He was rather expensive.

aren't they all?

I called around to other attorneys and they all stated similar reasons.

and they all saw her website? You are getting generic answers from lawyers that do not have all the facts. As well, am suspicious of contacting multiple attorneys, on a Saturday no less, that would even give you much of any answer over the phone. .

I found a guy who would send a cease and desist letter for a fair price.

then go for it. A cease or desist letter is becoming less and less forceful simply because just about anybody can find a lawyer that will send just about anybody else a cease and desist demand for just about anything as long as you are willing to pay him. Many people realize this and simply toss the letters because in most cases, they have no force or effect on the situation.

I do not know what the next step would be. I'm sure it would be to file a complaint with my counties court house.

It would be to actually visit an attorney with the web address of the other site so you and the attorney can actually look at the facts of the situation and not simply go on your vague statements of what is on that site and what your claim is.

 

[theloop]

I actually addressed some of theloop's concerns in an earlier post - but I didn't like the way I wrote it so I wound up editing it. The editing was taking so long that I finally said screw it , and I deleted my entire post. I will attempt this again.

IF theloop hired this "competitor" to help with certain aspects of his event (ie. create brochures or flyers or banners or whatever for the event), the competitor would be considered theloop's "employee." As employer, theloop would hold the copyright in any works created by the employee while the employee was under theloop's employ, barring any agreement to the contrary. The works created would be considered "works for hire."

IF this was the situation, then this competitor/employee would not be able to use, copy or display the work-for-hire works without permission from theloop, the copyright holder. This would apply to photographs of the created works, as well, as photographs of the works could be seen (potentially) as derivatives.

Although nothing legally prevents this competitor from stating that she worked on the event and did suchandsuch while under theloop's employ, she cannot claim the copyrights in the works, or exercise any of the rights that come with having a copyright (ie. copying, publishing). Those rights belong to theloop. Nor can this former employee/competitor legally claim the event was hers if it wasn't.

Although the situation described sounds more like unfair business practices, misrepresentation and/or fraud than an infringement matter, both copyright and trademark laws could play into it - depending on the exact business arrangement the competitor and theloop had, and depending on what exactly is displayed and said on the website.

Justalayman said that a review of the website by an attorney would be necessary in order to determine what legal action can be pursued against this competitor, if there is any, and I agree. If there is a legal action to pursue, I agree with TheOcculist that a cease and desist letter could be the cheapest and easiest way to resolve the matter.

You must have posted while I was responding to justlayman. Yes, what you said pretty much resembles what the attorneys I spoke with stated. I am in the process of having a cease and desist letter sent. I"m not sure what the next step is or the fees will be . Thanks I"ve dealt with attorneys in the past and most of them will not give a definitive answer on whether I have a case or not. The ones I spoke with, in regards to this situation, seemed to have had great certainty that I had a strong case. This is hopeful. They even laughed when I told them how my employee thought that they had the rights to take credit for the entire product. I'm not sure why I'm not getting my point across to the other posters. Maybe, I communicate more effectively in person. It also could be my example choices. Everyone I speak to that is not an attorney seems to side with me as well. I'm hoping this is a good sign.