Publishing a company logo online illegal?

[BadDriversNapa]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CALIFORNIA

So I manage a Youtube channel that features bad drivers breaking traffic laws and I posted a video of a tow truck company driver violating our hands-free law, with the company's logo visible. I then got the following comment on my video:

"Hello Sir . May I inform you that The Safe Driving Union has come to an agreement that the branding of "-------- Towing" is owned by their company . The company in question has experienced drivers that have passed basic road knowledge tests . The Union have contacted the company in question and have kindly requested that you take down and delete the video in question promptly . Please bear in my that legal action may be taken if our request is not followed specifically . Thank you for your cooperation and we look toward to your helpfulness . - Jason ------ Safe Driving Union"

Does posting a video online of a tow truck company breaking the law, with the logo and company name plainly featured, really violate any intellectual property rights? This seems like a bogus claim or am I missing something?

As far as I know, only posting a logo/company name for commercial purposes, using the company's name as one's own, slanderously, or using the company's logo to create a false affiliation are violations. But not simply posting the video with the company name, in connection with their employee breaking a traffic law. I will add that the video clip is shown with other random drivers breaking laws, as a compilation video and is monetized with ads.

What's suspicious to me is that the supposed union contacted me at 11pm at night outside normal business hours, the original message had some blatant spelling errors, and I can't find the supposed union on Google anywhere. And he contacted me using his Youtube account. Granted, I have no email listed on my own Youtube channel. The guy Jason, is also refusing to divulge any information about his supposed union, like a website or email address. I'd like to authenticate his claim before I take down the video.

I'm just not sure if I can really take his legal threat seriously. Any thoughts?

 

[CdwJava]

Well, since a Google search for "Safe Driving Union" comes up with zero hits, and you recorded someone's public acts, you likely have nothing to be concerned about ... yet.

 

[BadDriversNapa]

Well, since a Google search for "Safe Driving Union" comes up with zero hits, and you recorded someone's public acts, you likely have nothing to be concerned about ... yet.

That's what I'm thinking as well. But you say, "Yet." What do you mean exactly? I do realize that even if there was no infringement doesn't mean they won't necessary take it to court. But also, I don't even know how in the hell they would track me down. My Youtube account is anonymous. I have no e-mail address they can see. And the e-mail address I registered the account with is a Google address with no personal information, not even my name tied to it. So I don't know how they would be able to even prove WHO posted the video, in the first place. Can't just file a lawsuit against a "nobody".

 

[CdwJava]

I doubt anyone has any grounds to go after you, but, that doesn't mean someone can't make life miserable for you in some way.

 

[BadDriversNapa]

I doubt anyone has any grounds to go after you, but, that doesn't mean someone can't make life miserable for you in some way.

That's very true! However, they don't know where I nor my dashcam drivers live, nor do they even know who we are. The most they can really do, that I can think of, to make my life miserable, is by bullying me online. But I'm used to internet bullies. I've dealt with them, I've dealt with death threats and hate, ever since I started managing this "Bad Drivers of......" Youtube channel 6 years ago. I'm pretty immune to the effects of online bullying at this point. Threats of legal action, without substance, really don't scare me. But if I have even a sliver of doubt, I'll start asking around for opinions. I even asked Stanley Roberts of KRON4 news who is an experienced journalist that films and posts a segment called "People Behaving Badly" both on TV and Youtube (under the username TVman1981), which includes video clips of employees in company vehicles breaking traffic laws. His answer was just about the same as yours, and that they're just trying to bully me into taking it down.

Someone pointed out that the avatar he was using, in the comment where legal action was threatened, was the logo for the Atlanta Falcons! Talk about a claim of infringement! He accuses me of violating an intellectual property law, while at the same time himself stealing the football team's logo and using it as his own to represent the supposed union he supposedly represents! Someone called him on that one. I'm beginning to believe the tow company created that Youtube account and is using that account to pretend to be the driving union. So many red flags!

 

[justalayman]

So you think your identity cannot be discovered by chasing your online presence? We had a regular poster here some years back that thought the same thing. He was eventually identified and dealt with, and he went to extreme lengths to hide his identity.

So, what are you doing to actively hide your identity from those that seek it through following your web posts? You may be surprised how identifiable you actually are.


With that said; generally speaking, video taken in a public setting is not an issue, even if it shows a trademark protected logo. If it were nobody could ever publish a photo of a crashed delta or united airways jet yet it happens every time one crashes. They would prefer their logo not be seen for obvious reasons but the fact is there is nothing unlawful about showing it in such circumstances.

 

[quincy]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CALIFORNIA

So I manage a Youtube channel that features bad drivers breaking traffic laws and I posted a video of a tow truck company driver violating our hands-free law, with the company's logo visible ...

... Does posting a video online of a tow truck company breaking the law, with the logo and company name plainly featured, really violate any intellectual property rights? This seems like a bogus claim or am I missing something?

As far as I know, only posting a logo/company name for commercial purposes, using the company's name as one's own, slanderously, or using the company's logo to create a false affiliation are violations. But not simply posting the video with the company name, in connection with their employee breaking a traffic law. I will add that the video clip is shown with other random drivers breaking laws, as a compilation video and is monetized with ads. ...

... I'm just not sure if I can really take his legal threat seriously. Any thoughts?

Although your videos would need to be seen to determine this better, it does not sound as if your video of a labeled tow truck infringes on the truck company's trademark rights. I do have some concern that your videos might falsely label identifiable people as law breakers. I certainly hope you can back up your video claims.

Based on what you have said, the threat of legal action probably came from the tow truck driver, who might be concerned with protecting his job. If you receive a cease and desist letter in the mail, or a summons and complaint indicating you are being sued, worry then and contact a lawyer in your area.

Lawsuits, by the way, can be filed against "John Does" until the identity of the person behind an online publication is disclosed through internet account subpoenas. I agree with justalayman that no one is really anonymous on the internet.

 

[BadDriversNapa]

So you think your identity cannot be discovered by chasing your online presence? We had a regular poster here some years back that thought the same thing. He was eventually identified and dealt with, and he went to extreme lengths to hide his identity.

So, what are you doing to actively hide your identity from those that seek it through following your web posts? You may be surprised how identifiable you actually are.


With that said; generally speaking, video taken in a public setting is not an issue, even if it shows a trademark protected logo. If it were nobody could ever publish a photo of a crashed delta or united airways jet yet it happens every time one crashes. They would prefer their logo not be seen for obvious reasons but the fact is there is nothing unlawful about showing it in such circumstances.

But here's the thing about online anonymity. I myself started a legal process to try and track down an online user who violated my rights. I contacted a private investigator and I was told that legal teams trying to track down identities of internet users is a whole lot more difficult than it may seem. Especially when that user registers their accounts with e-mail addresses that aren't registered with personal names, nor the social media accounts registered with personal names or information. In that case, the only lead would be figuring out the IP address of the user. But an IP address still doesn't always narrow the search down all that much. My IP address for example, covers a huge area and encompasses many computer users, and is dynamic and always changing. Even when you can narrow an IP address down to a single computer, then you can't be sure WHO is actually operating that computer. That computer can be shared with any number of other users. Tracing online entities is really not as easy as people think.

A good example was a Youtube video in my area showing someone being assaulted. The victim in the video reported the assault and investigators found the video online and began an investigation. However, the police were completely unable to determine who or even what computer posted that video. So the police turned to the public for help in identifying the suspect and/or the person who uploaded the video. I don't know if the police/DA ever found the people involved. If they did, they did so via the public's assistance through social networking.

The reason I go to extreme lengths to protect my identity is that the nature of my videos, exposing traffic law violators, brings a lot of haters. I've received death threats over the years. So I have no choice but to cloak my identity. The only people who know who I am are my family and the police. I trust and hope that the police don't ever leak my identity. And the police only know who I am because I have occasionally submit videos to them of some pretty flagrant law breakers, to get letters mailed out to the registered owners warning them of their violations.

I've been managing the Youtube channel for 6 years now and I've had A LOT of haters try to track me down and figure out who I am, and my dashcam drivers. As far as I know, nobody has figured it out yet. A whole lot of people have tried!

So to answer your question about what I am doing to stay anonymous and to keep my dashcam drivers anonymous is in the videos, I disguise our voices. The Youtube account was registered without any names, DOB, or any personally identifying information. The e-mail account that was used to register the account was also registered without the use of any names or personal info. Same goes for our Twitter and Facebook account. We never post any information about ourselves and we even go so far as to blur out the reflections of our vehicles in the videos. And our IP address is non-specific to our exact location and is dynamic.

Really the most probable way someone would crack our identity is if they saw us on the road, saw the dashcam and then follow us to our house. Then did a reverse lookup of our address. But we're even careful about driving home and not taking a direct route. If someone were to follow any of us, we would know we're being followed.

 

[BadDriversNapa]

Although your videos would need to be seen to determine this better, it does not sound as if your video of a labeled tow truck infringes on the truck company's trademark rights. I do have some concern that your videos might falsely label identifiable people as law breakers. I certainly hope you can back up your video claims.

Based on what you have said, the threat of legal action probably came from the tow truck driver, who might be concerned with protecting his job. If you receive a cease and desist letter in the mail, or a summons and complaint indicating you are being sued, worry then and contact a lawyer in your area.

Lawsuits, by the way, can be filed against "John Does" until the identity of the person behind an online publication is disclosed through internet account subpoenas. I agree with justalayman that no one is really anonymous on the internet.

That is definitely a valid concern about potentially falsely accusing a driver of breaking the law. That's why I studied the California Vehicle Code in depth before managing this Youtube channel, since I'm also in charge of the video editing and using discretion about which video clips to keep. Yes, I can and regularly do back up my claims about a driver breaking a law. I get called on my video clips all the time by viewers who question whether the driver was actually breaking the law. I always respond with a citation to the relevant Vehicle Code section. However, not quite everyone in my videos is breaking the law, but perhaps doing something on the road that isn't wise, or a driver who pops out from behind someplace unexpectedly and scares us. We include interesting clips as well. But the fact remains that these are all recorded in public.

 

[quincy]

That is definitely a valid concern about potentially falsely accusing a driver of breaking the law. That's why I studied the California Vehicle Code in depth before managing this Youtube channel, since I'm also in charge of the video editing and using discretion about which video clips to keep. Yes, I can and regularly do back up my claims about a driver breaking a law. I get called on my video clips all the time by viewers who question whether the driver was actually breaking the law. I always respond with a citation to the relevant Vehicle Code section. However, not quite everyone in my videos is breaking the law, but perhaps doing something on the road that isn't wise, or a driver who pops out from behind someplace unexpectedly and scares us. We include interesting clips as well. But the fact remains that these are all recorded in public.

Because you are recording people in public, your videos are probably not going to get you into any legal hot water unless you make statements about identifiable people captured on video that are blatantly false and harmful.

You might be smart to sit down with an attorney in your area for a personal review of the comment you received on the tow truck video, and for a personal review of your video channel and what you are doing, to better ensure you are not crossing any legal lines with what you are picturing and saying online.

One comment on online anonymity and your example of the police asking for the public's assistance: The police have limited resources and cannot (or will not) spend a lot of money or time tracking down the makers of videos. They therefore make open pleas to the public to assist with identification of the publishers of online material. This is not because the police cannot identify the posters but rather because it is too costly and time consuming for them to do so.

With civil actions involving online publications, the costs of tracking down an online publisher is generally left to the one filing suit. This can get expensive but it is almost always possible to identify an online poster. Everyone, no matter how careful they are or they think they are, leave behind footprints. For minor matters, the effort may not be made or the money spent. The potential payoff does not justify the time or cost.

 

[BadDriversNapa]

Because you are recording people in public, your videos are probably not going to get you into any legal hot water unless you make statements about identifiable people captured on video that are blatantly false and harmful.

You might be smart to sit down with an attorney in your area for a personal review of the comment you received on the tow truck video, and for a personal review of your video channel and what you are doing, to better ensure you are not crossing any legal lines with what you are picturing and saying online.

One comment on online anonymity and your example of the police asking for the public's assistance: The police have limited resources and cannot (or will not) spend a lot of money or time tracking down the makers of videos. They therefore make open pleas to the public to assist with identification of the publishers of online material. This is not because the police cannot identify the posters but rather because it is too costly and time consuming for them to do so.

With civil actions involving online publications, the costs of tracking down an online publisher is generally left to the one filing suit. This can get expensive but it is almost always possible to identify an online poster. Everyone, no matter how careful they are or they think they are, leave behind footprints. For minor matters, the effort may not be made or the money spent. The potential payoff does not justify the time or cost.

Of course. I'm definitely not saying an "anonymous" user can't be identified, but from what I'm told by the professionals, most cases can be cracked, but there is a relative minority that are next to impossible (if not completely) to be traced, due to the nature of IP addresses and the internet service provider and the difficulty of proving a connection between a user and an incident on a particular computer. Especially if it's a shared computer. And I'm not claiming to be all of 100% immune, but the way my ISP is set up, anyone would have a hell of a time figuring out my identity. When my own IP address is traced, it indicates that I live within 100 miles roughly, of San Francisco. And I'm in Napa. Besides the ISP name, that's the extent of the info that can be gleaned from that particular angle, in regards to my own trackability.

I did actually take down that clip of the tow truck driver, just to show good faith and that I am willing to work with people even if I wasn't legally in the wrong. Basically the tow truck driver was talking on his cell phone and potentially texting while driving, which are both violations of California law. In the future, I will post a video of that company if they are caught committing more serious violations. We did also post a video of that same company, and even possibly the same driver over a year ago. He ran a stop sign in front of us and went out of turn, so my dashcam driver honked, and he honked back and then he abruptly brake-checked my dashcam driver. The company threatened to sue on the same basis that they thought their company name was infringed. Nothing ever came of it, and they refused to take responsibility for their driver's bad behavior. Eventually the dust settled on that, even though I left the video up.

Another interesting development. The supposed "Safe Drivers Union" Youtube account that posted the messages about the tow truck company threatening to sue, I am now 99.9% certain that it was someone pretending to be a union. I noticed their unique punctuation style of their typing matched perfectly the punctuation style of one of my viewers who has always acted like a loyal fan of my videos. The supposed union later claimed to be a company out of South Australia. My "loyal" fan is also from South Australia. Hmmmm, three more red flags right there! It seems unlikely that a foreign union would represent driving companies in the United States. Doesn't make any sense. So I'm pretty much moving past that the "Safe Drivers Union" is any real entity at all. That would logically make the legal threat pretty well unlikely too.

I looked into the process of filing an intellectual property suit and wow! First of all, those suits can only be filed in federal courts, which would involve both parties traveling two hours each way at least a few times, where the nearest federal court is. There would be countless meetings with attorneys and legal authorities, a pile of court fees, several hearings, a long drawn out process and possibly a long drawn out trial. So between all the court, legal and attorney fees, a typical case can cost about what a down payment on a house can cost. A ridiculous amount of time and money. So they'd have to figure out, like you said, if I would even be worth a case like that. Not to mention how strong the case would be, how much money and assets I have (I'm basically a Turnip) and if they could positively prove who it was that uploaded the video. Even if they cleared all those hurdles, I would invoke my 5th Amendment rights. And I'm sure anyone else who has ever had access to my computer would also.

I did consult with legal professionals in the beginning when I began managing this channel so I could become aware of what I can and can't do. And, I am aware of the need to steer clear of making untrue statements for the purposes of defamation in video clips where the individual(s) are identifiable. So I think I'm solid there.

 

[quincy]

... I did actually take down that clip of the tow truck driver, just to show good faith and that I am willing to work with people even if I wasn't legally in the wrong. Basically the tow truck driver was talking on his cell phone and potentially texting while driving, which are both violations of California law. In the future, I will post a video of that company if they are caught committing more serious violations. We did also post a video of that same company, and even possibly the same driver over a year ago. He ran a stop sign in front of us and went out of turn, so my dashcam driver honked, and he honked back and then he abruptly brake-checked my dashcam driver. The company threatened to sue on the same basis that they thought their company name was infringed. Nothing ever came of it, and they refused to take responsibility for their driver's bad behavior. Eventually the dust settled on that, even though I left the video up.

I think you were smart to remove the video of the tow truck driver, even if (we can assume) it was legal to publish. You have with that simple act avoided a dispute that could escalate into a legal action, whether a merited one or not. Some battles are worth fighting ... others just aren't.

Another interesting development. The supposed "Safe Drivers Union" Youtube account that posted the messages about the tow truck company threatening to sue, I am now 99.9% certain that it was someone pretending to be a union. I noticed their unique punctuation style of their typing matched perfectly the punctuation style of one of my viewers who has always acted like a loyal fan of my videos. The supposed union later claimed to be a company out of South Australia. My "loyal" fan is also from South Australia. Hmmmm, three more red flags right there! It seems unlikely that a foreign union would represent driving companies in the United States. Doesn't make any sense. So I'm pretty much moving past that the "Safe Drivers Union" is any real entity at all. That would logically make the legal threat pretty well unlikely too.

I have a friend in Toronto who teaches forensic linguistics. He has taught me ways to identify writers simply by comparing one sample of writing to another and picking out the idiosyncrasies. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the comment you received was a fake. Online comment sections often attract posted silliness.

I looked into the process of filing an intellectual property suit and wow! First of all, those suits can only be filed in federal courts, which would involve both parties traveling two hours each way at least a few times, where the nearest federal court is. There would be countless meetings with attorneys and legal authorities, a pile of court fees, several hearings, a long drawn out process and possibly a long drawn out trial. So between all the court, legal and attorney fees, a typical case can cost about what a down payment on a house can cost. A ridiculous amount of time and money. So they'd have to figure out, like you said, if I would even be worth a case like that. Not to mention how strong the case would be, how much money and assets I have (I'm basically a Turnip) and if they could positively prove who it was that uploaded the video. Even if they cleared all those hurdles, I would invoke my 5th Amendment rights. And I'm sure anyone else who has ever had access to my computer would also.

What you found when researching IP suits is what many discover when they first contemplate suing. Trademark infringement suits are generally not inexpensive suits to pursue. There can be some remedies available under state laws, however, that reduce the cost and make a lawsuit more feasible for some. Based strictly on what you have presented here in the way of facts, however, I do not see that anyone will make the effort to file suit against you for publishing a video of a tow truck driver driving irresponsibly for a named company. That said, stranger things have happened so I would never rule out the possibility.

I did consult with legal professionals in the beginning when I began managing this channel so I could become aware of what I can and can't do. And, I am aware of the need to steer clear of making untrue statements for the purposes of defamation in video clips where the individual(s) are identifiable. So I think I'm solid there.

It appears you prepared well by checking into the legalities involved in operating a site such as yours, before starting your channel, and that was smart. I also think you made a smart (if not necessarily necessary) decision by removing the video.

Good luck with your video channel.

 

[BadDriversNapa]

I think you were smart to remove the video of the tow truck driver, even if (we can assume) it was legal to publish. You have with that simple act avoided a dispute that could escalate into a legal action, whether a merited one or not. Some battles are worth fighting ... others just aren't.



I have a friend in Toronto who teaches forensic linguistics. He has taught me ways to identify writers simply by comparing one sample of writing to another and picking out the idiosyncrasies. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the comment you received was a fake. Online comment sections often attract posted silliness.



What you found when researching IP suits is what many discover when they first contemplate suing. Trademark infringement suits are generally not inexpensive suits to pursue. There can be some remedies available under state laws, however, that reduce the cost and make a lawsuit more feasible for some. Based strictly on what you have presented here in the way of facts, however, I do not see that anyone will make the effort to file suit against you for publishing a video of a tow truck driver driving irresponsibly for a named company. That said, stranger things have happened so I would never rule out the possibility.



It appears you prepared well by checking into the legalities involved in operating a site such as yours, before starting your channel, and that was smart. I also think you made a smart (if not necessarily necessary) decision by removing the video.

Good luck with your video channel.

I agree with each of your points. I'll stick to publishing more serious infractions by their company drivers. Hopefully all this attention they've gotten (twice now) will wake them up a bit. I doubt they'll discipline their driver however. It's a small family run company. But they need to realize that their driver breaking traffic laws makes their driver a liability to their company. It sickens me that they defend their driver despite clear cut cases with video proof of his road rage issue and his blatant disregard for traffic laws. They simply do not care. They only care they got caught on camera and posted on Youtube.

By the way, I'm impressed with how fast my post got a reply and I'm thankful for all your helpful support! I'm very glad to have joined this forum!

 

[quincy]

...But they need to realize that their driver breaking traffic laws makes their driver a liability to their company ...

One reason company trucks are labeled with company names is to provide free advertising for the company. Most companies learn soon enough that if their vehicles are driven by bad drivers, it reflects poorly on their business. It is like a negative review for the company driving the streets.

It is possible that the small company will make changes in who drives their trucks as a result of your videos (unless, perhaps, the bad driver is the owner of the company).

By the way, I'm impressed with how fast my post got a reply and I'm thankful for all your helpful support! I'm very glad to have joined this forum!

There is usually a forum member somewhere on site, so questions tend not to sit unanswered for too long.

I am happy you were happy with the responses you received. We all appreciate the thanks.

Good luck with your YouTube channel.

 

[BadDriversNapa]

One reason company trucks are labeled with company names is to provide free advertising for the company. Most companies learn soon enough that if their vehicles are driven by bad drivers, it reflects poorly on their business. It is like a negative review for the company driving the streets.

It is possible that the small company will make changes in who drives their trucks as a result of your videos (unless, perhaps, the bad driver is the owner of the company).



There is usually a forum member somewhere on site, so questions tend not to sit unanswered for too long.

I am happy you were happy with the responses you received. We all appreciate the thanks.

Good luck with your YouTube channel.

He's actually not the owner. Maybe they do care, but their egos are getting in the way of letting me know that they care, at best.

Thanks for the good word! Not everyone agrees with what we do, but I feel that by doing this, we're making some sort of difference (even if minute) in the community by spreading awareness of how NOT to drive. We ourselves aren't perfect drivers, but we try to be as good as we can be.