Confused about lingo- lawsuit...

What is the name of your state? WA

I'm being sued for a judgement against me. The situation is that in 1999, I had 6 crowns seated that, when asked, I informed the dentist they weren't acceptable to me- they are too yellow. All jaws hit the floor when I said this and had he not asked, I probably wouldn't have said anything at all. However, I stopped paying the bill in 3/01 because I believed he did part of what I asked for (the crowns were not just cosmetic, but also provided protection for the teeth), so I paid him partially. He, of course, denies I ever said anything negative about the crowns stating I was "very pleased" with them (what part of, "I don't like them, they're too yellow" sounds very pleased?).

The documents I received state that he seated the crowns on an open account. Now, where I'm confused is that SOL's state that for a written contract or accounts receivable, the SOL's are 6 years, but for an oral contract, 3 years in my state. I don't know if this falls under oral contract or accounts receivable and if the SOL's have run out or not? It's my understanding that an open contract is a verbal or oral contract because there is no written documentation of an agreement or written contract to support the debt. However, he supplied an invoice with his statement to the attorney, so I don't know if this changes things.

My question is, as outlined above, what is the difference between an oral contract, open account and accounts receivable? It is my understanding that an open account IS an oral contract. Can somebody please advise? I'm not sure how to proceed.

Thank you.

[Ladynred]

Did you ever sign any papers at the office agreeing to have them treat you ?

To be totally honest, I don't remember, but I don't think I did. It was done in 1999 (I can't remember yesterday half the time, let alone 5 years ago) and I do not recall signing anything. I knew him and couldn't get anybody else to do the work without doing a lot of other work that I couldn't afford and didn't feel was necessary- he did. But, I do not recall signing anything and the only thing he attached with his statement was an invoice- nothing signed- no mention of signing a contract because I don't believe there ever was one. My sister goes to the same dentist (still) and I asked her because I thought I hadn't, if she signed anything about payment before a procedure- she said yes, but it's just been the last couple of visits- which goes to support my initial thought that I signed nothing. The only thing that scared me was the accounts receivable stuff in regards to the invoice. Wondering if that constituted "accounts receivable" even though the dentist, in his statement, stated it was done on an open contract.

MsRed... you have been so wonderful... I wish there were some way I could give back to you what you've given to me.

I went to the hearing today after delivering my document accusing the attorney for plaintiff of dirty play (delivering court documents to an address I haven't lived at for 2 years 3 months after I gave him my current address)- noting the statement signed under penalty of perjury from the dentist saying it was an open account and that the SOL's on an open account in WA have already expired... the judge basically said sorry about your luck- whether or not it's an open account, we tend to label them as accounts receivable and awarded the plaintiff a judgment against me.

Made my day.

[Ladynred]

You can appeal the judgment if you want to. He still charged you for something you NEVER got and told him you did not want, that to me is unethical. I'd be making a call to the better business bureau to file a complaint and I'd also call whatever review board governs dentists in your state.

I am- I made it clear to the judge that I fully intended to file an appeal, but this time, I may have to enlist the help of an attorney. I'm also going to file a complaint with the BBB and with the ADA and whatever board governs my area, like you stated. I do believe that the SOL's for my filing a suit against the dentist have expired, and now I regret not suing him- but I honestly believed that I wasn't going to be one of those people that file law suits unless it was a damning type of situation. Of course, now I see it as one and I see myself as naive.

I'm going to call the attorney general's office tomorrow as well because if they can send an affidavit that an open account SOL is 3 years and that the Drs sworn statement to the court stating it's an open account verifies it was- that should help me. I really can't afford an attorney, but I really can't afford this "judgment" which just raised the cost of the initial bill in the first place.

Neat.

[stevek3]

Originally Posted by Greycie

I am- I made it clear to the judge that I fully intended to file an appeal, but this time, I may have to enlist the help of an attorney. I'm also going to file a complaint with the BBB and with the ADA and whatever board governs my area, like you stated. I do believe that the SOL's for my filing a suit against the dentist have expired, and now I regret not suing him- but I honestly believed that I wasn't going to be one of those people that file law suits unless it was a damning type of situation. Of course, now I see it as one and I see myself as naive.

I'm going to call the attorney general's office tomorrow as well because if they can send an affidavit that an open account SOL is 3 years and that the Drs sworn statement to the court stating it's an open account verifies it was- that should help me. I really can't afford an attorney, but I really can't afford this "judgment" which just raised the cost of the initial bill in the first place.

Neat.

This type of stuff really bothers me...Not regarding the dentist, but about you. I can't stand when people don't take responsibility for their own actions. Why didn't you retain an attorney in the first place? THAT was the time to do it. You tried to take the very cheap and easy way out, and now you're going to be paying for it. Figuratively and literally. What did you *think* would happen? From where I sit, the expression "Dead man walking" comes to mind.

At this point, you're wasting your time and throwing away good money after bad. Unless you want to be constantly looking over your shoulder, then work out a payment arrangement, pay the damn thing, and move on with your life.

[Ladynred]

Steve.. maybe YOU have the resources to just go out and hire an attorney whenever you feel like it, but a lot of people simply cannot afford the prices that lawyers charge. That's provided you can find one that will even bother to take the case ! Legal aid is only available to to a small group of people and good luck finding a pro bono lawyer that isn't up to his eyeballs.

I can't see any reasonable reason for her to pay for something that she not only REFUSED but NEVER GOT in the first place.

[stevek3]

Originally Posted by Ladynred

Steve.. maybe YOU have the resources to just go out and hire an attorney whenever you feel like it, but a lot of people simply cannot afford the prices that lawyers charge. That's provided you can find one that will even bother to take the case ! Legal aid is only available to to a small group of people and good luck finding a pro bono lawyer that isn't up to his eyeballs.

I can't see any reasonable reason for her to pay for something that she not only REFUSED but NEVER GOT in the first place.

Answer one simple question: If she had hired counsel, would she be in the same position she is now? In life, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do, whether you like it or not. Bottom line, which would have cost her less, a lawyer or the resulting judgment? The reality is the point is now moot. She's now a judgment debtor. She herself said she's now thinking about hiring and paying an attorney...but only AFTER the judgment has already been rendered against her! Furthermore, she is out looking for free advice...but only AFTER the judgment has already been rendered against her! What kind of defendant intends to put up a fight and then shows up in court totally unprepared to defend? Was the other side represented by counsel? I don't care if her savings account balance is ten million dollars or is ten cents. It's irrelevant. She might as well have put on a puppet show.

[Ladynred]

No, she came here BEFORE the judgment was entered.. read the timeline.

The large majority of people have NO CLUE how to defend against ANY kind of lawsuit. Most people are so scared to death of going to court that they don't even TRY and wind up with default judgments. While representing ourselves pro se is our right in this country, the court system, the lawyers and even the judges don't make it easy to do so and far too many judges just don't want to deal with pro se litigants in their courtrooms.

[stevek3]

Originally Posted by Ladynred

No, she came here BEFORE the judgment was entered.. read the timeline.

The large majority of people have NO CLUE how to defend against ANY kind of lawsuit. Most people are so scared to death of going to court that they don't even TRY and wind up with default judgments. While representing ourselves pro se is our right in this country, the court system, the lawyers and even the judges don't make it easy to do so and far too many judges just don't want to deal with pro se litigants in their courtrooms.

Somebody asking a cursory incomplete question three seconds prior to trial is not "asking questions." Hell, she didn't even bother to request documents nor do any discovery at all. Nothing is more basic. Asking a factual question for which she should have already known the answer is the height of irresponsibility. If she needs to find her mortal enemy, then a hand mirror would prove very handy right about now.

You encompassed in a nutshell the precise reason that every pro se defendant in the country who wishes to mount a serious defense absolutely requires legal representation. Otherwise, you die. Doing a Larry, Curly and Moe imitation will only get you laughter. All the bitching and moaning and crying about all the injustice in the world will NEVER change the fact. It's only compounded by the fact most pro se litigants do not even bother doing even the slightest preparation in their case. It's astonishing. Litigation is war. The court is the battlefield. A totally unprepared and clueless pro se defendant marching solo into a strange and unfamiliar courtroom makes as much sense as providing a soldier with nothing but underwear for body armor and a banana for artillery. Which, by the way, is also the U.S. military strategy in Iraq.

Somebody asking a cursory incomplete question three seconds prior to trial is not "asking questions." Hell, she didn't even bother to request documents nor do any discovery at all. Nothing is more basic. Asking a factual question for which she should have already known the answer is the height of irresponsibility. If she needs to find her mortal enemy, then a hand mirror would prove very handy right about now.

Actually, steve, I received the documents for this just prior to my posting and spent hours upon hours researching any and everything I could find so that I would be as prepared as I could be. Three seconds before the hearing? Considering the date it was delivered (not to ME by the way, regardless of the fact they had MY address three months prior) and the date I received it, I think there was little I could do in order to prepare myself. Seeking cousel now? It makes me want to vomit- I can't afford it- whether I had .10 or $10 (10 million seems I wouldn't be in this situation). I did have documentation, provided by the attorney for the plaintiff as well as with the research I had done, I felt I had a strong and open and closed case in my hands. Still, you're right, I could probably lose my job for spending hours here that I don't have at home- then I'd be in a really good place, no?

Do you realize that most people aren't simply "aware" of these laws? Do you know that a person has to enter the correct phrase(s) into the internet to get any hits to pull up to help themselves better defend themselves? Do you realize the hours of research I had done prior to even STUMBLING upon this place? Probably not.

The true measure of a man is in how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good. Rather than slinging your negativity around, why not try to be helpful to somebody? I came here trying to seek additional information on top of what I'd already found and try to get some clarification- where were you when the question was first posed? You waited until after and an update to come in with your accusations and judgments of your own. My, that's big of you.

I didn't believe I needed an attorney based upon the countless hours I spent researching this case and the information I was able to gather as well as what was delivered to me in person. Clearly, I was mistaken. You know little about what happened and it's rather presumptuous of you to assume (you know what they say about those who assume, no?) things of which you know very, very little about. But somehow, I can't see you agreeing with that- you seem more the argumentative and judgmental type to me than anybody who has anything helpful to offer.

Thanks for your time and consideration to all of what was said and of course, after the fact. It was certanily enlightening, if nothing more.

I have regrets- huge ones. I regret not getting cousel years ago and taking this joker to court. But I naively believed it wasn't right to do so. Now in retrospect, I regret many things about this situation.

[stevek3]

Originally Posted by Greycie

Somebody asking a cursory incomplete question three seconds prior to trial is not "asking questions." Hell, she didn't even bother to request documents nor do any discovery at all. Nothing is more basic. Asking a factual question for which she should have already known the answer is the height of irresponsibility. If she needs to find her mortal enemy, then a hand mirror would prove very handy right about now.

Actually, steve, I received the documents for this just prior to my posting and spent hours upon hours researching any and everything I could find so that I would be as prepared as I could be. Three seconds before the hearing? Considering the date it was delivered (not to ME by the way, regardless of the fact they had MY address three months prior) and the date I received it, I think there was little I could do in order to prepare myself. Seeking cousel now? It makes me want to vomit- I can't afford it- whether I had .10 or $10 (10 million seems I wouldn't be in this situation). I did have documentation, provided by the attorney for the plaintiff as well as with the research I had done, I felt I had a strong and open and closed case in my hands. Still, you're right, I could probably lose my job for spending hours here that I don't have at home- then I'd be in a really good place, no?

Do you realize that most people aren't simply "aware" of these laws? Do you know that a person has to enter the correct phrase(s) into the internet to get any hits to pull up to help themselves better defend themselves? Do you realize the hours of research I had done prior to even STUMBLING upon this place? Probably not.

The true measure of a man is in how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good. Rather than slinging your negativity around, why not try to be helpful to somebody? I came here trying to seek additional information on top of what I'd already found and try to get some clarification- where were you when the question was first posed? You waited until after and an update to come in with your accusations and judgments of your own. My, that's big of you.

I didn't believe I needed an attorney based upon the countless hours I spent researching this case and the information I was able to gather as well as what was delivered to me in person. Clearly, I was mistaken. You know little about what happened and it's rather presumptuous of you to assume (you know what they say about those who assume, no?) things of which you know very, very little about. But somehow, I can't see you agreeing with that- you seem more the argumentative and judgmental type to me than anybody who has anything helpful to offer.

Thanks for your time and consideration to all of what was said and of course, after the fact. It was certanily enlightening, if nothing more.

I have regrets- huge ones. I regret not getting cousel years ago and taking this joker to court. But I naively believed it wasn't right to do so. Now in retrospect, I regret many things about this situation.

Hey, look...My father was a lawyer and I myself spent three miserable years in law school. And yet, I still despise most lawyers as much as the next guy! I know exactly what you go through. Believe me, I've personally seen all the angles in different roles from all perspectives. I know how much lawyers cost, I know what it's like to represent myself, whether as a plaintiff or a defendant, and I know what it's like to have to defend myself against pond scum with a pretentious "Esq." at the end of the name. I admit I've gone against my own advice and represented myself against plaintiff's lawyers on more than one occasion, but that's only because I truly enjoy the end result of making a monkey out of an arrogant blowhard. With that being said, it always drains me. It's much more than just the endless hard work and the countless hours spread over months and years in any one case. There's an old expression: "A person who represents himself has an idiot for a lawyer." That is so true. Even if you have all the knowledge in the world, it is impossible to emotionally detach yourself from everything that's going on in the case. It totally screws with your judgment. Just learn from your mistakes, don't make the same mistakes again, and move on.

Was your court date a hearing before a court commissioner or an actual trial before a judge? Do you know the difference? In many jurisdictions you may have an absolute right to a trial before a judge (trial de novo) after the hearing court commissioner or magistrate. This is not an appeal, it is a fresh, new trial. You may have a very limited time to demand this (10 days in Wisconsin). Were you told anything about this at the hearing?

Steve, I appreciate what you're saying- unfortunately, I don't have 3 years of law school under my belt. I do have family in the law field (an uncle who is a judge and a cousin- sorta, by marriage, who is an attorney. Firstly, I can't go to my uncle for legal advice because it would be unethical for him to give it to me. Secondly, even though my "cousin sorta by marriage" is an attorney, I still have to pay her fees. So yes, I really got myself into a pickle here and it wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't so very, very wrong, all the way back to the beginning of this whole thing through the dirty lies and trickery of the lawyer finally down to the judge not administering the law as it's written, but deciding to administer it the way he wants to rather than as it is. It's just very gross and dirty and wrong. But yeah, ultimately, it's my error because I was naive- because I believe in doing the right thing and didn't want to ruin this guy's business by taking him to court- not everybody is out to screw somebody over. I've heard the saying "A person who represents himself has an idot for a lawyer" though I've also heard that it's frowned upon to obtain a lawyer for small claims and that it's unnecessary when your case is as open and closed as SOL's having expired. I took advantage of this because I didn't have the finances to obtain an attorney and even given the great anxiety it gave me to merely deliver court documents to the court- to the attorney- not to mention what it did to get me into court and face this... well, I believed I was a) in the right, and b) had an open and closed case. I've also read time and again that if you don't go to court when being sued for a judgment, that you will no doubt get one against you and if you go, it's much less likely the judge will give it out- untrue, it seems. You know, I don't have credit- I have spent the last several years paying off old debts and clearing up my credit and took a loan out earlier this year to pay off all debts- tried to call this collection company to settle this before it ever went to the attorney- but oddly, they have no answering machine- no message recording telling you their hours and aren't open from 7:45 am through 6:30 pm during the day. I made three attempts to reach them by phone (the first time around 6-6:15 pm after work, the second between 7:45 and 8:00 am in the morning when I first got to work and the last time between 12:00 and 12:30 pm in the afternoon)- no answer during each attempt. Again, the next thing I knew, I was served. Nothing in writing from this place- I had to do a reverse phone search to even figure out who was calling... everything has been very dirty about this group. By the time I was served, I was so ticked off because of all of the wrong doings in this ordeal that I was determined to fight back. I was tired of just bending over for these companies to take advantage of people- it's wrong and it should be stopped. It shouldn't be allowed and I feel that the courts ruling on this just justifies every wrong act from all parties involved. It just told them their behavior was okay and to keep doing it. That, even if you're in the right, it doesn't matter- you're gonna be screwed. What did I learn from all of this? The system is wrong- warped and needs to be fixed and that should I ever be in a similar situation, I will NOT accept piss-poor work nor will I allow my values to preclude me from filing suit if somebody does wrong me.

To the second poster (I'm sorry, I don't recall what your username is)--

My hearing was before a judge, I believe. It was small claims. Do I know the difference? I know here there is a judge and a magistrate- I know the magistrate is not a judge, but do I know what he is? No, not really. This guy was a judge, but he was wrong. No, wasn't told anything about this at the hearing- I did tell the judge that I fully intended to appeal this, though. my plan at this point is to get something in writing from the Attorney Generals office as well as a court transcript and take it to an attorney and ask them if I have a case, if so, how much it will cost me to win it. I can't afford it, but I can't afford the judgment either nor can I afford for them to begin garnishing my wages or sucking money straight from my checking account. So, in this case, my options are limited.