was contacted by collections company

[blue_hat]

What is the name of your state? IN

My wife and I are in serious financial difficulty over efforts to start a company several years ago. As a result, we have significant (40-50K) credit bills that accumulated over several years and a combined income of around 70k. The whole thing is overwhelming. We may well end up in bankruptcy.

We have received collection notices from GS services re: two accounts. One for American Express for 8,000 and another for a home improvement store for 1,500. I suspect that more will be coming.

I know I have 30 days to request validation. below is a lengthy letter that I've come across as a response and request for validation. It seems lengthy, overkill? thoughts, comments etc...are appreciated.
______________________________________
To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is being sent to you in response to a notice received by me on or about January XX, 2007. I am seeking clarification regarding your claim. As perhaps you can imagine, your notice has been the source of a great deal of anxiety for me and my family. Be advised that this is not a refusal to pay but due to the seriousness of your claim, I am invoking my rights provided by federal law and responding with notice pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, 15 USC 1692g Sec. 809 (b) and that validation is requested. Please note, this is NOT a request for “verification” or proof of my mailing address, but a request for VALIDATION made pursuant to the above named Title and Section. It is hoped that through the process of validation the nature and specifics of your claim can be clarified. Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated.
DEBT COLLECTOR DISCLOSURE STATEMENT
This statement and the answers contained herein may be used by Respondent, if necessary, in any court of competent jurisdiction.
Notice: This Debt Collector Disclosure Statement is not a substitute for, nor the equivalent of, the hereinabove-requested verification of the record, i.e. “Confirmation of correctness, truth, or authenticity, by affidavit, oath, or deposition” (Black’s Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, 1990), re the alleged debt, and must be completed in accordance with the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, 15 USC §1692g, applicable portions of Truth in Lending (Regulation Z), 12 CFR 226, and demands as cited above. Debt Collector must make all required disclosures clearly and conspicuously in writing re the following:

1.Name of Debt Collector: ……………………………………………………………….……………………………………………...

2.Address of Debt Collector: ……………………………………………….……………………………..……

3.Name of alleged Debtor: …………………………………………………………..……………………………

4. Address of alleged Debtor: ……………….……………………………………...………………………………………………….. .

5. Alleged Account Number: ………..…………...……………………………………………………………………………………. ..

6.Alleged debt owed: $………………………………….……………………………………………………..……………………… ...


7.Date alleged debt became payable: ……...…………………………….………..……………..…..………

8.Re this alleged account, what is the name and address of the alleged Original Creditor, if different from Debt Collector?
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ………
9. How was alleged debt calculated? Provide an itemization and billing record history for alleged account as well as an itemization of any interest and fees that are being assessed.
10. Re this alleged account, if Debt Collector is different from alleged Original Creditor, does Debt Collector have a bona fide affidavit of assignment to enter into alleged original contract between alleged Original Creditor and alleged Debtor? YES NO

11. Is Debt Collector licensed to collect in the state of Indiana? If so, what is the license number(s) and name of Registered Agent

12. Did Debt Collector purchase this alleged account from the alleged Original Creditor? YES NO N/A (Not Applicable)

11. If applicable, date of purchase of this alleged account from alleged Original Creditor, and purchase amount:
Date: …………………………………………………… Amount: $……………………………………………..……………………

12.Did Debt Collector purchase this alleged account from a previous debt collector? YES NO N/A

13. If applicable, date of purchase of this alleged account from previous debt collector, and purchase amount:
Date: …………………………………………………… Amount: $……………………………………………..……………………

14. Regarding this alleged account, Debt Collector is currently the:
Owner; (b) Assignee; (c) Other – explain: …………………………………………………….… .
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ………

15.What are the terms of the transfer of rights re this alleged account? ……….………….……….……………………………….

16. If applicable, transfer of rights re this alleged account was executed by the following method:
(a) Assignment; (b) Negotiation; (c) Novation; (d) Other – explain:…………………….…………………...……………
**************.....………………………………………………………………………………………...…… …………………………………
17. If the transfer of rights re this alleged account was by assignment, was there consideration? YES NO N/A

18. What is the nature and cause of the consideration cited in # 17 above? ………………………….……….………..…………
………………………………………………………………………………………...…………………………………… ……………………………………………………………………………………………………...……………………… …………………………
19. If the transfer of rights re this alleged account was by negotiation, was the alleged account taken for value?
YES NO N/A

20.What is the nature and cause of any value cited in #19 above? ……………………….………………………………………...
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ………

21.If the transfer of rights re this alleged account was by novation, was consent given by alleged Debtor? YES NO N/A

22. What is the nature and cause of any consent cited in #21 above? ………………………………………………………………
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ………

23. Has Debt Collector provided alleged Debtor with the requisite verification of the alleged debt as required by the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act? YES NO

24. Date said verification cited above in # 23 was provided alleged Debtor: …………………………….………………………....

25. Was said verification cited above in # 23 in the form of a sworn or affirmed oath, affidavit, or deposition? YES NO

26. Verification cited above in # 23 was provided alleged Debtor in the form of: OATH, AFFIDAVIT or DEPOSTION

27. Does Debt Collector have knowledge of any claim(s)/defense(s) re this alleged account? YES NO

28. What is the nature and cause of any claim(s)/defense(s) re this alleged account? ……...…………………………………….
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ………

29. Was alleged Debtor sold any products/services by Debt Collector? YES NO

30. What is the nature and cause of any products/services cited above in # 29? …….……………………………………………
…………………………………………………………………………………...……………………………...…… …………………
cont____part II

[blue_hat]

31. Does there exist a verifiable, bona fide, original commercial instrument between Debt Collector and alleged Debtor containing alleged Debtor’s bona fide signature? YES NO

32. What is the nature and cause of any verifiable commercial instrument cited above in # 31? .……………………………….
…………………………………………………………………………………...……………………………...…… …………………
33. Does there exist verifiable evidence of an exchange of a benefit or detriment between Debt Collector and alleged Debtor? YES NO

34. What is the nature and cause of this evidence of an exchange of a benefit or detriment as cited above in # 33? …………………………………………………………………………………...……………………………...…… ………………

35. Does any evidence exist of verifiable external act(s) giving the objective semblance of agreement between Debt Collector and alleged Debtor? YES NO

36. What is the nature and cause of any external act(s) giving the objective semblance of agreement from #35 above? …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ……

37. Have any charge-offs been made by any creditor or debt collector regarding this alleged account? YES NO

38. Have any insurance claims been made by any creditor or debt collector regarding this alleged account? YES NO

39. Have any tax write-offs been made by any creditor or debt collector regarding this alleged account? YES NO

40. Have any tax deductions been made by any creditor or debt collector regarding this alleged account? YES NO

41. Have any judgments been obtained by any creditor or debt collector regarding this alleged account? YES NO

42. At the time the alleged original contract was executed, were all parties apprised of the meaning of the terms and conditions of said alleged original contract? YES NO

43. At the time the alleged original contract was executed, were all parties advised of the importance of consulting a licensed legal professional before executing the alleged contract? YES NO

44. At the time the alleged original contract was executed, were all parties apprised that said alleged contract was a private credit instrument? YES NO

Debt Collector’s failure, both intentional and otherwise, to complete/answer points “1” through “44” above and return this Debt Collector Disclosure Statement, as well as provide Respondent with the requisite verification validating the hereinabove - referenced alleged debt, constitutes Debt Collector’s tacit agreement that Debt Collector has no verifiable, lawful, bona fide claim re the hereinabove-referenced alleged account, and that Debt Collector tacitly agrees that Debt Collector waives all claims against Respondent and indemnifies and holds Respondent harmless against any and all costs and fees heretofore and hereafter incurred and related re any and all collection attempts involving the hereinabove-referenced alleged account.

Declaration: The Undersigned hereby declares under penalty of perjury of the laws of this State that the statements made in this Debt Collector Disclosure Statement are true and correct in accordance with the Undersigned’s best firsthand knowledge and belief.

____________________________________ ____________________________________
Date Printed name of Signatory

____________________________________ ____________________________________
Official Title of Signatory Authorized Signature for Debt Collector

Debt Collector must timely complete and return this Debt Collector Disclosure Statement, along with all required documents referenced in said Debt Collector Disclosure Statement. Debt Collector’s claim will not be considered if any portion of this Debt Collector Disclosure Statement is not completed and timely returned with all required documents, which specifically includes the requisite validation, made in accordance with law and codified in the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act at 15 USC §1692 et seq., and which states in relevant part: “A debt collector may not use any false, deceptive, or misleading representation or means in connection with the collection of any debt,” which includes “the false representation of the character, or legal status of any debt,” and “the threat to take any action that cannot legally be taken,” all of which are violations of law. If Debt Collector does not respond as required by law, Debt Collector’s claim will not be considered and Debt Collector may be liable for damages for any continued collection efforts, as well as any other injury sustained by Respondent.
Under FDCPA Section 809 (b), you are not allowed to pursue collection activity until the debt is validated. You should be made aware that in TWYLA BOATLEY, Plaintiff, vs. DIEM CORPORATION, No. CIV 03-0762 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA, 2004, the courts ruled that reporting a collection account is indeed considered collection activity. If any action is taken which could be considered detrimental to any of my credit reports, I will consult with my legal counsel for suit. This includes any listing any information to a credit reporting repository that could be inaccurate or invalidated or verifying an account as accurate when in fact there is no provided proof that it is.

Please allow thirty (30) days for processing after Respondent’s receipt of Debt Collector’s response.
I would also like to request, in writing, that no telephone contact be made by your offices to my home, or to my place of employment. If your offices attempt telephone communication with me, including but not limited to computer generated calls and calls or correspondence sent to or with any third parties, it will be considered harassment and I will have no choice but to file suit. All future communications with me MUST be done in writing and sent to the address noted in this letter by USPS.

CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I hereby certify that I have mailed a copy of the foregoing Request for Verification of Debt, this __________ day of __________, 2007, by U.S. Certified Mail Return Receipt Requested, to __________ _______________ Receipt no.______________________________________


____________________________________
Signature
Recording Requested by, and
When Recorded Return to:What is the name of your state?

[debtcollector`]

Overkill and mostly information that you have no legal right to.

What do you need validation for? You recognize the debts. You know they are yours.

Either set up payment arrangements or expect to be sued.

DC

PS: If that came to my agency, I'd throw it away and continue with collections as usual. Or just sue you.

[Debt Guy]

Any collector receiving this letter will just laugh. Why? Because only those who do not understand the FDCPA will find this kind of junk on the internet. If you really want to dispute the debt, just send a certified letter and say "I dispute this debt". That phrase has the same legal implication as the letter you found.

At best, a request for validation might slow the collection process down just a bit. All the CA needs to do is go back to the original creditor and ask if you owe the money. If the answer is yes, then you will get a response "yep, you owe". At that point, all the legal requirements for the validation have been met.

Having been in your situation once upon a time, I can tell you that you have only limited choices:

1. File bankruptcy. Talk to a local bankruptcy attorney. Most will give you a free initial consultation to find out if bankruptcy even makes sense for you.

2. Find some way to pay or settle the debts. To do that you must find a source of funding. You can refi your home, borrow from relatives, cash in investments, etc.

3. Tough it out. You will be sued. Judgments will be awarded. Your wages will be garnished. Your bank account will be wiped out. Indiana allows an exemption for part of the equity in your home so an attachment is entirely possible. Likewise, other assets (cars, boats, toys) will be fair game for seizure. Don't worry about your sofa and TV and clothing since creditors really do not want used furniture and used clothing. They cannot take away your kids or put you in jail.

I feel your pain. I know how hard this is. Bankruptcy is the way to go if you can qualify. Find out.

[blue_hat]

As far as seeking validation, simply having a creditor say yes you owe this amount does not appear to satisfy the notion of validation, such as producing a signed contract.

I don't have anything of value beyond very minimal assets that are of such a small value (home equity, old cars etc...) I suspect this is a moot point, beyond garnishments etc..

Lastly, it is my understanding that if sued, we will be required to fill out a lengthy discovery document. It is also my understanding that I may file a similar discovery document in which we may ask all of the questions mentioned in the afore mentioned letter.

As an aside, you mentioned you were once in a difficult financial situation, what did you decide, what was it like and if given the opportunity would you have make the same choice?

[mr.yet]

I would have to disagree with you Debt Guy, validication verification of the alleged debt is necessary you the debt collector to prove they have a valid claim.

Here look at it this way,

Debt Guy you owe me $5000.00 and if you dont pay I will sue you.

What would be you answer?

[mr.yet]

Originally Posted by debtcollector`

Overkill and mostly information that you have no legal right to.

What do you need validation for? You recognize the debts. You know they are yours.

Either set up payment arrangements or expect to be sued.

DC

PS: If that came to my agency, I'd throw it away and continue with collections as usual. Or just sue you.

Would you care to validication your opinion with facts?

[blue_hat]

Thanks My Yet for your input. I suppose the crux of the whole issue is what meets the legal standards required by validation? Obviously simply having the creditor verbally reclaim that the debt is due does not satisfy the statutory requirements. However, are creditors constrained by the necessity to deliver a copy of a signed contract between the credit card company and an individual or would other forms of documentation be sufficient? And if other documentation is sufficient, where might one find opinion letters from the FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION's Division of Credit Practices,
Bureau of Consumer Protection that substantiate either view?

It seems that what constitutes validation is amorphous and depends largely upon which side of a fence one stands.

All comments are welcomed and appreciated.

thanks in advance to all

[mr.yet]

Originally Posted by blue_hat

Thanks My Yet for your input. I suppose the crux of the whole issue is what meets the legal standards required by validation? Obviously simply having the creditor verbally reclaim that the debt is due does not satisfy the statutory requirements. However, are creditors constrained by the necessity to deliver a copy of a signed contract between the credit card company and an individual or would other forms of documentation be sufficient? And if other documentation is sufficient, where might one find opinion letters from the FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION's Division of Credit Practices,
Bureau of Consumer Protection that substantiate either view?

It seems that what constitutes validation is amorphous and depends largely upon which side of a fence one stands.

All comments are welcomed and appreciated.

thanks in advance to all

A copy of the alleged debt is not validication of it. only the original contract with ink on it will do for that.

In todays world anyone can scan a document, cut and paste what ever they want the document to be and try to use it as evidence..

Only the original document, No contract, no claim

[Debt Guy]

As far as seeking validation, simply having a creditor say yes you owe this amount does not appear to satisfy the notion of validation, such as producing a signed contract.

Download and read a copy of the FDCPA. Validation is clearly defined. The only time a signed contract is required is after you have been sued and you are conducting document discovery.

Lastly, it is my understanding that if sued, we will be required to fill out a lengthy discovery document. It is also my understanding that I may file a similar discovery document in which we may ask all of the questions mentioned in the afore mentioned letter.

You are thinking of an asset hearing. The creditor has the right to ask all those questions after a judgment has been awarded.

As an aside, you mentioned you were once in a difficult financial situation, what did you decide, what was it like and if given the opportunity would you have make the same choice?

I had some family help and a great lawyer friend who helped me learn how to negotiate settlements on the debts.

validication verification of the alleged debt is necessary you the debt collector to prove they have a valid claim.

Not accurate. As explained earlier, "proof" is required only in the courtroom. Read the FDCPA instead of listening to goofs on message boards.

Debt Guy you owe me $5000.00 and if you dont pay I will sue you. What would be you answer?

Well, if I really owe then I know I probably will not win in the long run so I try to find a way to minimize the damage. If I don't owe, then I would say "sue me" and then twist knots in your tail in the courtroom making you prove something you cannot prove.

Would you care to validication you opinion with facts?

DC can speak for himself but your question does not make sense. Just go read the FDCPA. Google the word or go to [url]www.ftc.gov[/url] and download the whole thing. It is not long and is really pretty easy to read. I defy you to find anything in the law that requires the CA to provide proof as a part of the validation process.

None of that is to say a debtor does not have rights. They just don't have the rights you are attempting to subscribe.

Obviously simply having the creditor verbally reclaim that the debt is due does not satisfy the statutory requirements.

For purposes of validation, it does. For purposes of proof in court, it does not.

However, are creditors constrained by the necessity to deliver a copy of a signed contract between the credit card company and an individual or would other forms of documentation be sufficient? And if other documentation is sufficient, where might one find opinion letters from the FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION's Division of Credit Practices,
Bureau of Consumer Protection that substantiate either view?

All the creditor needs to provide is what satisfies the judge. The first thing the judge will do is ask you if you owe the money. If you say yes, then case over. If you say no (and, in your case, commit perjury) the judges would like to see paperwork. The original agreement is hardly ever available. But, when the creditor shows the judge a dozen monthly statements all sent to your address, most judges are ready to rock. Keep that perjury thing in mind -- judges don't like to be lied to.

It seems that what constitutes validation is amorphous and depends largely upon which side of a fence one stands.

Actually, it is quite clear. Read the FDCPA. It is just not the answer you are looking for and that is why you are struggling.

A copy of the alleged debt is not validication of it. only the original contract with ink on it will do for that.

I don't know what law school you went to but your answer is not accurate.

In todays world anyone can scan a document, cut and paste what ever they want the document to be and try to use it as evidence..

Well, I suppose that is true but it would require a fraud upon the court. I can't think of any credit card company that would risk its banking license over such a thing. Likewise, any attorney with a lick of sense would walk out of the room if such a thing were suggested.

Only the original document, No contract, no claim__________________

Again, I wish you the best in the pursuit of your legal career. I see many malpractice problems.

[mr.yet]

Well, if I really owe then I know I probably will not win in the long run so I try to find a way to minimize the damage. If I don't owe, then I would say "sue me" and then twist knots in your tail in the courtroom making you prove something you cannot prove.

Well their is your answer, court where one must present evidence to the fact of a valid claim, not hearsay and copies of an alleged debt but th original contract.

Would you care to validication you opinion with facts?

DC can speak for himself but your question does not make sense. Just go read the FDCPA. Google the word or go to [url]www.ftc.gov[/url] and download the whole thing. It is not long and is really pretty easy to read. I defy you to find anything in the law that requires the CA to provide proof as a part of the validation process.

None of that is to say a debtor does not have rights. They just don't have the rights you are attempting to subscribe.

Rights for the debtor, well they do have them, its call due process of the law, so a Debt Collector would have to try the debtor to court, where again fact in evidence is the only thing that counts.

[Debt Guy]

Rights for the debtor, well they do have them, its call due process of the law, so a Debt Collector would have to try the debtor to court, where again fact in evidence is the only thing that counts.

Which proves my point. All those rights you want to claim are part of validation are only operative in the courtroom and then to the satisfaction of the judge. You don't get a vote.

Why don't you stop showing your ignorance?

[mr.yet]

Originally Posted by Debt Guy

Rights for the debtor, well they do have them, its call due process of the law, so a Debt Collector would have to try the debtor to court, where again fact in evidence is the only thing that counts.

Which proves my point. All those rights you want to claim are part of validation are only operative in the courtroom and then to the satisfaction of the judge. You don't get a vote.

Why don't you stop showing your ignorance?

Well testy are we!

In court one has the right to cross examine the plaintiff as to the truthfulness of their claim, produce the original document that was signed anything less would be fraud.

Debt collectors seldom tell the truth.

[mr.yet]

VERIFICATION - Whenever new matter is introduced on either side, the plea must conclude with a verification or averment, in order that the other party may have an opportunity of answering it.

The usual verification of a plea containing matter of fact, is in these words, "And this he is ready to verify," etc.

In one instance however, new matter need not conclude with a verification and then the pleader may pray judgment without it; for example, when the matter pleaded is merely negative. The reason of it is evident, a negative requires no proof; and it would therefore be imper-tinent or nugatory for the pleader, who pleads a negative matter, to declare his readiness to prove it.

practice. The examination of the truth of a writing; the certificate that the writing is true.

[blue_hat]

From a process perspective, it sounds as though you are both arguing from the same side of the coin, in that, validation will ultimately be adjudicated in court. Part and parcel to this fact will be a request from the court to take an oath and afirm that the debt is not mine.

Is this basically right? Have either of you actually been involved in court proceedings re: credit card debt, validation etc...?

It would appear that the chances of all of this being eventually drawn into court are pretty high. Is this your take? Lastly, considering this as a logical end point, what is the time frame for such an event? Is it likely to be proceeded by months of back and forth or do CA typically file for summary judgement right off the bat?

Thanks in advance.