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Chipfo

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Texas

The first 2 paragraphs is mainly a little history and how I came about doing what I did. If not needed I posted the real questions are in the 4th paragraph. Thank you.

Hi, my name is Chip, I have a business remodeling/handyman, I will try to be brief and truthful as possible. I was recently hired by a woman to install wood horse fence around 2 fields. Work was slow so I took it at a cost plus basis, $18 hr plus materials, no mark-up. She already had a contractor remodeling her 1800's home so I was just doing the fence. After about 2 weeks I guess I had been in the house only a couple of times but I noticed the guys working on her house did not know anything about construction, they were literally destroying her home. They cut-out openings for 4 double entry doors on the exterior load bearing walls of the 2 story house and did not install headers, or any kind of support at all for the walls and crudley nailed the doors into place, for example. They also tore out 2nd story floors and load bearing walls of both first and second story and did not support the cieling, no beams installed, nothing, just big open room now. Well I informed her and warned her about all this and after a few days of my warnings, pointing out the extent of damages they were causing she finally ran them off and now they have criminal charges against them. She then started accepting bids for contractors to fix and finish her house, I have the knowledge but not the manpower at the time. After recieving some really large bids, $170,000 +, she asked me if it was something I could do if I got help. I told her yes I know how, I have a plan where-as f she used me it may take a little longer but I could get those huge prices down quite a bit with little risk for either of us. I proposed a deal via email, basically stating if I was to do it I would bid each room separately, hire and come up with a dependable crew as I went, each week I would make a draw on the bid just for employee payroll and any materials I personally purchased plus a little for myself to get me through the bidded room. At the end of the work on that room we would settle up on the bid, move to the next room. Plumbers and electrical to be subbed out. Also, I would hire and keep the horse fence going at our original agreement. She liked the plan and agreed we would come up with a contract when her loan was available. Basically that is how I got into working on her house. No written agreement yet, I was to just continue with the fence until her loan was available.

She came to me a couple of days later and asked me how critical it was that something be done about the structural damage the first contractors did, of course it was very critical whether I did it or not. (I had been telling her that) She had me go in and just sure up the critical places, I told her it was imperative that it be fixed before something real bad happened, so I agreed to correctly install 2 headers above the double entry doors that had nothing, I also used 4 x 4 posts for the fence as braces to support the upstairs ceiling in which load bearing walls was removed and just left hanging. Just so it did not collapse and the headers above the doors to keep the upstairs from sagging down over the doors or collapse. I also installed a wood pellet stove per her request, all just for the $18 per hour, I was fine with it I just didn't want to see her house in ruins. I also did some winterizing around the house, put up thick plastic over places where siding was tore off, sealing holes and drafts etc to help it stay warm inside. I was then to keep going on the fence. All per her request.

OK, here is where I need the real advise. A week before Christmas she told me she was going up North to Maryland to be with family. She asked if I could feed and water the horses while she was gone and I agreed. A couple of days later, after she left it froze hear real bad. I got to her house one morning and I needed to fill up my big barrel with water for the concrete for the fence posts. The water pipes were frozen. I had permission to go in her house while she was gone. The copper pipe to the outside faucet was still exposed in a wall in the house, so I went in and placed heaters and boiled horse trough water to thaw out the pipes so I could work and water the horses. (had to bust up ice in water troughs) Well of course thawing the pipes started reveling all the busted copper pipes. I am not a licence plumber and this house is out of the city limits. Per her request/permission I cut out the bursts and capped the pipes so to have water to the outside faucet so to be able to water the horses, there was no other water and the horses was running dangerously low, and also we could continue with the fence but the horses HAVE to have water, about 5 horses. Well, after cutting out those bursts and capping, it just revieled more bursts, so I cut and capped. Now, this is all temporary mainly for the horses, she told me a plumber was coming in a couple weeks to re-plumb the entire house, so this was all temporary. At one point I just had a water hose clamped to the main pipe to use to water the horses. Since it was there, we did fill up my barrel to keep posts going on the fence. She emailed me and told me her and her 5 year old son is coming home and could I please get temp water to the toilet and shower at least. I told her I would and told her it was temporary until the plumber got there. She also informed me that her bank got suspicious of the purchases in Maryland and froze her account, she would pay me when she got home. (Originally she was just going to transfer funds into my account, we have same bank) OK, fine. when she got home she gave me $800 cash, partial payment for the week, I payed my 2 helpers. The following friday, I gave her an invoice with the balance forward and she wrote me a check. I went ahead and paid my helper and deposited the check. Now, that makes 2 weeks for me living on $300 after paying my help. Since that Monday was a holiday (day after new year) it would be 5 days before the money was available. She emailed me and told me that the whole project was to be put on hold for 10 days. I told her OK well I would need to find something to do for the 10 days, I cannot afford to take 10 days off. Can I come get some of my tools, leave the rest there so I could dig up something to fill in the 10 days, by the way your check of $1087 is being returned for NSF. She said she would leave my tools in the garage unlocked, nothing said about the check. I called and left a polite message about the check. I emailed her and said OK I will be there in the morning and reminded her about the check. I went the next morning and no tools in the garage, no word about the check. Other than informing me about the 10 day wait and tools in the garage she had not returned my emails or phone calls. I am now going on 3 weeks living on the same $300. Water and electricity final notices have come and due to be turned off the next day and 2 days. I am now frustrated and worried, I sent another email that was niether polite or rude, informing her of my cut off notices and can I at least have my tools. A couple minutes later she called and was irate, yelling, telling me I was walking off the job, I could not get a word in. She sent emails telling me how extremely hostile I was getting, etc, etc. I am telling the truth when I say I was not even a little hostile and all I asked for was my tools and I informed her of the bounced check. I got the check back, I went to her bank and they said it was still no good.

I am going to send a certified letter next. What I want to know is, since I am not a plumber, I know how but I am not and since it was an emergency for the horses, they was almost out and they drink a ton, and her and her 5 year old needs a toilet and since it was understood that it was temporary, outside city limits and a plumber was coming in a couple weeks to re-do all of it anyway, does she have legal grounds not to pay me and is that any kind of excuse for me temporarily repairing the pipes only to the toilet, shower and outside faucet? I have all the emails confirming it was temporary, per her request and I was not trying to re-plumb her house or anything of the sort. And also it proves I was not hostile in any way at all and not just walking off the job. I also have plenty of pictures of the work other than the temp plumbing, so she cannot say I didn't do any work or my job she was paying for. Before and after pictures.

I don't know if it makes a difference but this was the week of and during Christams, I don't know if a plumber would come out and I didn't have the money and her account was locked.

Thank you in advance, I am sorry it is so long, it is complicated :)
 
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not2cleverRed

Obvious Observer
Focus on the tools first.

She can argue about what she owes you (or what you owe her).

The more immediate problem is your tools. Focus on your tools. She has no right to withhold your tools. Demand your tools be returned. Don't ever leave your tools at a job again.

She probably knows she bounced a check - it's probably not the first time she's done it either. Avoid going on about horses and plumbing in your certified letter. Keep it short.
1) Inform her that her check had NSF.
2) Inform her that therefore the money is still owed you, plus bank fees, and that you will only accept payment in the form of cashier's check or money order.
3) DO NOT mention horses, plumbing, fences.
4) Inform her that you want this money in however many days Texas dictates (look it up yourself), and you tools immediately, and that after that date that you will be filing a police report.
 

Chipfo

Junior Member
Focus on the tools first
Oh, I guess I forgot to mention, I did meet her mother out there and got my tools, it wasn't a lot as I do not ever leave all my tools, it like 2 scaffolds, a cordless drill accidentally left, extention cords, chop saw, etc. I wasn't allowed to go inside and I have already thought of stuff that is still there but not really enough to squabble about. So I have my tools.

As far as the certified letter, I will be using a form from the internet, I will not add anything to it. It is a polite but to the point form letter made for this. The only way I would mentin the horses and such is if it came to court or something like that, because I only did it because the horses would suffer and could die, they were very low (less than 6 inches in trough) and for her and her son to be able to use the toilet, they live in the house. A plumber was already scheduled to come out and run that Pex throughout so it was obvious temp.

Thank you very much :) My next move is a certified letter, I have not emailed or phoned since she went crazy.

Thanks again!!
 
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Chipfo

Junior Member
Now I have a truck payment coming up due and all my utilities are past dueI have to make the truck payment no matter what or I am out of business and I am doing a small job but it will not pay enough to pay up bills, and even if I land a job big enough it will not be in time. Is she in any way liable for any of my utilities being turned off as a direct result of her non-payment?
 

Chipfo

Junior Member
She can argue about what she owes you (or what you owe her)
Doesn't writing me the check and giving it to me pretty much show admittance to owing me the money? The check bounced from insufficient funds, not a stop payment. I have received the check back and her bank said it is still no good. I am sending a certified letter today. Next I will just let the district attorney's office handle it.

I was mainly wondering if I should pursue it further than the letter I am sending since I am not licenced plumber but it was an emergency situation to get minimum temps in for her horses and her and her son over the Holidays.

And if I had a good argument how would be the best way to present my argument?

I know this is a free forum and I can only expect so much without paying a lawyer :) I just thought I would start here and find out if I even have a leg to stand on :) Thanks again.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Now I have a truck payment coming up due and all my utilities are past dueI have to make the truck payment no matter what or I am out of business and I am doing a small job but it will not pay enough to pay up bills, and even if I land a job big enough it will not be in time. Is she in any way liable for any of my utilities being turned off as a direct result of her non-payment?
No. Your utilities being turned off is on you...and it sounds like your problems are bigger than just non-payment from this one customer.
 

not2cleverRed

Obvious Observer
Doesn't writing me the check and giving it to me pretty much show admittance to owing me the money? The check bounced from insufficient funds, not a stop payment. I have received the check back and her bank said it is still no good. I am sending a certified letter today. Next I will just let the district attorney's office handle it.
Yes.

But anything beyond that 1 check is another story.


I was mainly wondering if I should pursue it further than the letter I am sending since I am not licenced plumber but it was an emergency situation to get minimum temps in for her horses and her and her son over the Holidays.

And if I had a good argument how would be the best way to present my argument?

I know this is a free forum and I can only expect so much without paying a lawyer :) I just thought I would start here and find out if I even have a leg to stand on :) Thanks again.
Do not focus on plumbing. You are not a plumber.

You are asking to be reimbursed for expenses + horse sitting.

No, she is not responsible for your utility bills.

She's somewhat to blame for not preparing her house for a stay away.
As you had a key to her house and were aware of weather conditions, you could have also taken preventative measures to avoid freezing pipes.
That argument could go on and on.

So, focus on your expenses (organize receipts) and whatever proof you have of the agreement for payment for horse sitting. That is what the check is for. She wrote a rubber check. It seems knowingly so. That is the legal issue.
 

Chipfo

Junior Member
and it sounds like your problems are bigger than just non-payment from this one customer.
No not really, At the time she gave me the $800 partial payment the bills were due yes, but I paid my employees with that knowing that in 3 days she would write me a check for that week plus the balance forward and she did, it bounced. So, out of that $800, after payroll I had $300 to live off of for these last 4 weeks, bills past due and disconnect notices coming in. I could have paid a bill or 2 and not eat, but I chose to eat. :)
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
No not really, At the time she gave me the $800 partial payment the bills were due yes, but I paid my employees with that knowing that in 3 days she would write me a check for that week plus the balance forward and she did, it bounced. So, out of that $800, after payroll I had $300 to live off of for these last 4 weeks, bills past due and disconnect notices coming in. I could have paid a bill or 2 and not eat, but I chose to eat. :)
What about your other customers?
 

Chipfo

Junior Member
About preparing her house for freezing, she left on a friday, I don't work weekends and the freeze came over the weekend. I have not started inside the house as of yet, officially, I just made sure that the structural damage that was done didn't damage the house further is all, and I installed a pellet stove. At this point I had no reason to enter the house other than to fill her pellet stove each evening after working on the fence.

Also, all the pipes that bursted was under the floor, there was no way of looking to see if they were properly insulated or not, I had to cut out subfloor to even see where the pipes burst. The only blame to point at would be the rats that had chewed away all the pipe insulation over the past years, :)

Yes.

But anything beyond that 1 check is another story.




Do not focus on plumbing. You are not a plumber.

You are asking to be reimbursed for expenses + horse sitting.

No, she is not responsible for your utility bills.

She's somewhat to blame for not preparing her house for a stay away.
As you had a key to her house and were aware of weather conditions, you could have also taken preventative measures to avoid freezing pipes.
That argument could go on and on.

So, focus on your expenses (organize receipts) and whatever proof you have of the agreement for payment for horse sitting. That is what the check is for. She wrote a rubber check. It seems knowingly so. That is the legal issue.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
About preparing her house for freezing, she left on a friday, I don't work weekends and the freeze came over the weekend. I have not started inside the house as of yet, officially, I just made sure that the structural damage that was done didn't damage the house further is all, and I installed a pellet stove. At this point I had no reason to enter the house other than to fill her pellet stove each evening after working on the fence.

Also, all the pipes that bursted was under the floor, there was no way of looking to see if they were properly insulated or not, I had to cut out subfloor to even see where the pipes burst. The only blame to point at would be the rats that had chewed away all the pipe insulation over the past years, :)
Are you properly licensed to perform work of this nature?
 

Chipfo

Junior Member
Are you properly licensed to perform work of this nature?
No, as I said above, I only did this for emergency purposes for her hoerses and her and her son, it was limted temporary water, there was (is) a plumber coming to re-do her entire house on the 15th. All the details are above :) It is on her small horse ranch out of city limits. It was all just temporary fixes per her request, if nothing was done her horses would go without water, they were already dangerously low, and when she returned her and her son would have a toilet to use and shower. that is all.

What about your other customers?
I recieved the bounced check notice on the 6th, I have started a job this past monday, it will pay on friday, but it will not be enough, I will not make ebough to pay utilities before the cut-off notices, that is a fact

I got the partial payment of $800 3 days after Christmas, payed my employees, got the check that friday, paid my employee for that week then deposited the check leaving me with $300, I got notice of the bounced check on the 6th (yes it took my bank that long because of some holiday the day after new year) The check was put on hold on the 4th, it was decided it was because it was a new account they just had to verify, on the 6th it bounced.
 
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Chipfo

Junior Member
I am headed to the post office now to send the certified letter, it will take a couple days. But, if still no payment, should I just forget about it, or persue small claims. It really has set me back tremendously, this is no easy business, I was lucky someone called at the time they did or I would still be out trying to dig up something, my helper hasn't worked a day since, I was just caught up on things but due dates were arriving, I embarrassingly had to ask this client on Tuesday and risking suspicion by asking for a draw on the 2 days I worked for I was broke. Embarrassing to say the least, I don't do that. I am sure by the look on his face, it was suspicious of me flying off. So now I have used that $200 draw to buy food for my dog, myself, gas, etc. All as a direct result of that bounced check.

If I can do nothing other than go for the amount of the check plus return fee, then that's it, I will do just that. If I am just completely out of luck for trying to help keep her horses alive and so her and her son didn't have to go bathroom outside then I guess I am just out of luck. And this makes me want to demand a security deposit before starting any other job, but I know consumers are warned about that kind of stuff so I will probably just have to continue leaving my faith and trust in the consumer.
 

Chipfo

Junior Member
Do not focus on plumbing. You are not a plumber.
Oh I am not focusing on the plumbing other than in this conversation, not anywhere else. I just sent a certified letter, it was a form letter, I used my counties example letter and filled in the correct information. The main reason for my post here is for if/when I do report it as a hot check to the county is there a way for her to get out of the charges and not be responsible for the check because of the emergency plumbing I did.

Unless it is brought up somewhere or somehow where I have to talk about it, like court, I will not even mention anything I have done or talk about it. Unless it is false accusation where I can simply say "No I did not do that". This is the only place I have mentioned that part of the work since the checked bounced. I am just trying to gather as much info I can just in case, to be prepared best I can :)
 

Chipfo

Junior Member
Oh yeah, and Thank You all for any advise or comments, I really appreciate it :) I am getting emails when someone responds so if anyone has anything else please post.
 

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