About to go through divorce #2

[Radia]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ohio

We have been separated for a year and a half now, he is in TX as well but with the military.

Married 7 years, 6 of those he was in the military.

I have made him two offers to which his reply is this "you dont hold all the cards". When asked what he means, he wont elaborate. I am representing myself and he has yet to get a lawyer, divorce was filed in Ohio.

My offers are not unreasonable in my opinion but this may be because I am involved and its a "forest for the trees" situation so I thought I would get some input.

#1 involves splitting the debt 50/50, spousal support if awarded, and 50% of his retirement for the 6 years I have vested interest. Total payed by him over the course of his retirement= about 150,000

#2 is splitting the debt 50/50 and spousal support till I am finished with school (2 years) and as part of that while splitting the debt, I am asking that he take the car debt but I keep the car since I took the only car that was still being paid on of the 4 we had at the time. Including his antique 67 Chevy C10. It was financed through the military and is directly allotted from his check. Im not saying to take that on top of the split debt, just as one of this things... In turn I am willing to pay the time share we have and let him retain ownership. Total paid by him for this arrangement is 34,000...

He is saying he will NOT pay for a car I retain in my possession. This is to allow me to stay in school till I finish without worry of making the payment that is so large and being stranded. (I do work part time and have a small home based business and two kiddos) the other debts, the payments are small but the debt larger. And I am saying to split them evenly.

Am I being unreasonable?

The only thing he has tossed in my face was taking the savings we had when I left, I have proof... written and email, with reasons, from him that says he told me to take it. Although that is not what he tells other people. He also seems hung up on the semantics of when I left. He was deployed at the time I told him I was leaving (adultery by him resulting in a child) in january... I remained in the home until the children finished school in June. He had come home in May but was not residing in the home.. He says I left him for another man, in June... though I told him I was leaving in Jan. (a good reason to NOT date till a divorce is final!)

My only other concern is the Judge on my case. Her husband is military and I worry that she will be sympathetic to him for that reason. Though on the flip side she has been an advocate of women lawyers for girls in high schools in the area and I am a first year law student. Should I be worried?

I am thinking of going down to her court room and listening to her rule cases to get a feel for her.

Im honestly open to any input you may have.

 

[mistoffolees]

Yes, you are being unreasonable.

1. Alimony for a 7 year marriage is unlikely. Forget it.
2. If you keep the car, you keep the debt that goes with the car. If you can't afford it, sell the car.
3. What is the debt for? If it's for your college loans, you own it 100%. If it's for the car you're keeping, you own it 100%.
4. Even if he told you that you could take some money, that doesn't mean you won't have to account for it. Agreements between the two of you are irrelevant. What counts is what a judge decides. Now, your judge may say that you acted reasonably in taking that money (if you really CAN prove that he told you to take it), but he may not - and may require you to reimburse your stbx for 1/2.
5. You will be entitled to 1/2 of the marital portion of his retirement, but you can't simply assign that a dollar value. You have to have the appropriate paperwork drawn up and you'll get it when the time comes - not before. Alternatively, you could negotiate a smaller amount of money taken now in lieu of retirement value, but it would have to be reduced by the time value of money (that is, the longer he is from retirement, the smaller the amount of money that would compensate for the retirement pay).
6. If you were dating someone else (technically, if you had sex with him), you are guilty of adultery. Ohio allows the judge to consider 'any other relevant factor' in setting property division. STBX could argue that adultery is relevant if you had this other guy staying with you in the marital home which he was paying for. It's a long shot and he probably wouldn't win that argument, but you never know.

Frankly, you really should get an attorney rather than trying to handle this on your own.

 

[Radia]

Yes, you are being unreasonable.

1. Alimony for a 7 year marriage is unlikely. Forget it.
2. If you keep the car, you keep the debt that goes with the car. If you can't afford it, sell the car.
3. What is the debt for? If it's for your college loans, you own it 100%. If it's for the car you're keeping, you own it 100%.
4. Even if he told you that you could take some money, that doesn't mean you won't have to account for it. Agreements between the two of you are irrelevant. What counts is what a judge decides. Now, your judge may say that you acted reasonably in taking that money (if you really CAN prove that he told you to take it), but he may not - and may require you to reimburse your stbx for 1/2.
5. You will be entitled to 1/2 of the marital portion of his retirement, but you can't simply assign that a dollar value. You have to have the appropriate paperwork drawn up and you'll get it when the time comes - not before. Alternatively, you could negotiate a smaller amount of money taken now in lieu of retirement value, but it would have to be reduced by the time value of money (that is, the longer he is from retirement, the smaller the amount of money that would compensate for the retirement pay).
6. If you were dating someone else (technically, if you had sex with him), you are guilty of adultery. Ohio allows the judge to consider 'any other relevant factor' in setting property division. STBX could argue that adultery is relevant if you had this other guy staying with you in the marital home which he was paying for. It's a long shot and he probably wouldn't win that argument, but you never know.

Frankly, you really should get an attorney rather than trying to handle this on your own.

1. Ohio Spousal support is not based on length of marriage only, there are other factors, such as ability to support, comparative education, status quo of the marriage... The fact I worked before the marriage but didn't during, and had 2 volunteer jobs for no pay that benefited his career. Wanted to return to school and he wouldnt allow it... among other things.
2. Ok I can go with that.
3. 0 of the debt is college loans, it is credit cards, medical prior to military service, Time Share, and Car
4. Money can be accounted for, and any that was spent went to marital bills with the exception of the purchase of a washer and dryer and a refrigerator.
5. Dollar value estimate was made using a retirement calculator and not expected to be a set dollar amount which was why I said "about".
6. Did not live in the home or even with boyfriend, and really doubt that he would wave this flag since he created a baby with another soldier the October before I told him I was leaving.

I have shopped for an attorney and have not made the final decision on that one yet.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ohio

We have been separated for a year and a half now, he is in TX as well but with the military.

Married 7 years, 6 of those he was in the military.

I have made him two offers to which his reply is this "you dont hold all the cards". When asked what he means, he wont elaborate. I am representing myself and he has yet to get a lawyer, divorce was filed in Ohio.

My offers are not unreasonable in my opinion but this may be because I am involved and its a "forest for the trees" situation so I thought I would get some input.

#1 involves splitting the debt 50/50, spousal support if awarded, and 50% of his retirement for the 6 years I have vested interest. Total payed by him over the course of his retirement= about 150,000

#2 is splitting the debt 50/50 and spousal support till I am finished with school (2 years) and as part of that while splitting the debt, I am asking that he take the car debt but I keep the car since I took the only car that was still being paid on of the 4 we had at the time. Including his antique 67 Chevy C10. It was financed through the military and is directly allotted from his check. Im not saying to take that on top of the split debt, just as one of this things... In turn I am willing to pay the time share we have and let him retain ownership. Total paid by him for this arrangement is 34,000...

He is saying he will NOT pay for a car I retain in my possession. This is to allow me to stay in school till I finish without worry of making the payment that is so large and being stranded. (I do work part time and have a small home based business and two kiddos) the other debts, the payments are small but the debt larger. And I am saying to split them evenly.

Am I being unreasonable?

The only thing he has tossed in my face was taking the savings we had when I left, I have proof... written and email, with reasons, from him that says he told me to take it. Although that is not what he tells other people. He also seems hung up on the semantics of when I left. He was deployed at the time I told him I was leaving (adultery by him resulting in a child) in january... I remained in the home until the children finished school in June. He had come home in May but was not residing in the home.. He says I left him for another man, in June... though I told him I was leaving in Jan. (a good reason to NOT date till a divorce is final!)

My only other concern is the Judge on my case. Her husband is military and I worry that she will be sympathetic to him for that reason. Though on the flip side she has been an advocate of women lawyers for girls in high schools in the area and I am a first year law student. Should I be worried?

I am thinking of going down to her court room and listening to her rule cases to get a feel for her.

Im honestly open to any input you may have.

Its a little difficult to respond to your post because of the way you have organized it. Since you are representing yourself, AND you are in law school, you may want to work on organizing your thoughts better.

It is normal to split debts, but debts associated with assets go to the person who keeps the asset. Its only the debts that are not associated with a specific asset that should be split 50/50.

So, since you want to keep the car, you should be responsible for paying the debt associated with the car. That means that you should be paying the car payments. Obviously that is not going to happen since its a loan through the military and its deducted from his pay, therefore you need to compensate him somehow for that.

Alimony - You have a relatively short term marriage...only 7 years. Typically you would not normally be awarded alimony for a 7 year marriage, although its possible that you could be. You could possibly be awarded one year of alimony for every 2/3 years of marriage. However, you are choosing to go to school rather than working full time. I do not discourage you at all from doing so...particularly since law school should lead you to a lucrative career. However, since your stbx will not be sharing in the benefits of your future career, it could be considerably more "just" for you to take out additional student loans to supplement your income, rather than expecting your stbx to do so.

Military retirement pay - I think it works a bit differently than you might imagine. If you are awarded part of his military retirement pay you would not get 50% for six years...at that also assumes that he stays in the military long enough to be eligible for a pension.

Example: (and these numbers are totally fictitious they are merely being used to describe the way it works)

He stays in for 20 years. His pension is 2000.00 a month. You were married to him for 6 of those years, so 30 percent, or 300.00 of the pension is marital, you get 1/2 of that or 150.00 a month from the time he retires until you or he pass away. Now, because you were married for less than 10 years of his career, the government will not pay that money to you directly. He will have to write a check to you for possibly 40 or more years. He is simply NOT going to agree to that. On top of that, by the time he retires, if you finished law school and passed the bar, you will be making enough money that 150.00 a month would be peanuts to you, but a constant irritant to him.

That means that an attorney could make a strong argument for you not getting any of the pension at all. Giving up your potential share of the pension might be a good exchange for him continuing to make the car payment on the car that you are keeping. In fact, giving up both alimony AND a share of his pension might be appropriate in exchange for him continuing to make the payments on the car that you want to keep.

The fact that he committed adultery that resulted in a child, will make it difficult for him to claim that you left him for another man. However you getting involved so quickly with someone else was less than wise.

I really think that you should consider getting a consult with an attorney...so that you have a little more realistic idea of what is and isn't reasonable. I am sure that being in law school helps you understand theoretically what you could ask for, but I think that you are being a bit unrealistic.

 

[IrishLady47]

Curious as to how you are arriving at the $150,000 of retirement money? Right now, it is an asset with no current value--only future. If he makes it to 20 years and is eligible to be paid a military retirement, your 50% of the marital portion works out to be 15% of his retired pay. Since he joined in the last 6 years, he is under the CSB/Redux Plan. Which mean his retirement at 20 years may only be 40% of his high-3 average BASIC pay (not any allowances).

Is he enlisted or an officer? If enlisted, will likely retire as an E7. With average COLAs the next 14 years, his retired pay will be around 2500 a month. You'd have to receive your 15% for more than 30 years to add up to $150,000!! Now, if he is an officer and forgoes the CSB for the higher retired pay %, it will add up faster. But it is not much of a bargaining chip right now.

 

[Radia]

He is enlisted but joined as an e4 due to his Masters. He has been in 6 years and is an e6 already.

The estimated retirement amount came from inputting the information into this calculator. Retirement Choice Calculator

LDJ I'm sorry I respect your status here but I dont see what is wrong with my organization in my post?? What do you suggest as a better way of stating what was needed?

I agree that the car may be unreasonable, but I am in fact using the retirement as a trade off for that.

 

[LdiJ]

He is enlisted but joined as an e4 due to his Masters. He has been in 6 years and is an e6 already.

The estimated retirement amount came from inputting the information into this calculator. Retirement Choice Calculator

LMJ I'm sorry I respect your status here but I dont see what is wrong with my organization in my post?? What do you suggest as a better way of stating what was needed?

I agree that the car may be unreasonable, but I am in fact using the retirement as a trade off for that.

Keep your thoughts more concentrated.

Example, you don't need three paragraphs that include three issues in each paragraph. You need one paragraph for each issue.

That isn't really a very good explanation, but you honestly were a bit all over the place.

I honestly couldn't explain it better unless I rewrote your original post arranging it differently, and I simply do not have time to do that. You are in law school, you are reading case law at this point. Look at how case law is organized, and look at how things are normally presented in court and in motions, petitions and briefs.

 

[IrishLady47]

Most of the soldiers I work with are E6 at 6 yrs of svc (and they started as E1). I know of many making E7 at 8 or 9 years these days depending on MOS. And, many are still E7s at 20. At the last E8 board, 21,000 soldiers were eligible and considered. About 1,800 actually made it. But, lets use E8 as his retiring grade.

Using the calculator you did, the estimated high-3 of a E8 at 20 yrs in 2023 is 7673. His retired pay will be 40% (if he takes the CSB at 15 years) of that and you would get 15% of the 40%. It will still take a very long time for your share to be worth $150,000. Does he have money in the TSP now? Forgoing your share in that might be more influential at this point. The CSB is NOT part of the property division. So ignore that part of his retirement calculation.

And, LDij makes a very good point in that you cannot apply for direct payment from DFAS since you have not been married for at least 10 years while he was in the service. Meaning he would have to write a check or make a voluntary allotment. He doesn't sound like the type likely to do so whether it is court-ordered or not.

Not to say you cannot use this as a bargaining chip, but he will not value it the way you do.

 

[Ohiogal]

1. Ohio Spousal support is not based on length of marriage only, there are other factors, such as ability to support, comparative education, status quo of the marriage... The fact I worked before the marriage but didn't during, and had 2 volunteer jobs for no pay that benefited his career. Wanted to return to school and he wouldnt allow it... among other things.

How much child support do you receive for the children? Are they his children? What COULD you earn if YOU chose to work? You can be imputed with a salary. You have a four year degree so you have earning capability.

2. Ok I can go with that.
3. 0 of the debt is college loans, it is credit cards, medical prior to military service, Time Share, and Car

The car, if you keep, is something you will be ordered to pay for.

4. Money can be accounted for, and any that was spent went to marital bills with the exception of the purchase of a washer and dryer and a refrigerator.

The washer, dryer and refrigerator are MARITAL property.

5. Dollar value estimate was made using a retirement calculator and not expected to be a set dollar amount which was why I said "about".

A retirement calculator? WRONG. What is the value CURRENTLY on what accrued during the six years. Not what it will be in the future.

6. Did not live in the home or even with boyfriend, and really doubt that he would wave this flag since he created a baby with another soldier the October before I told him I was leaving.

You want spousal support? He will wave the flag. If you have a boyfriend, guess what -- that CAN and most likely WILL impact spousal support that you are requesting.

I have shopped for an attorney and have not made the final decision on that one yet.

Get one. You need someone objective looking at your case.

 

[Radia]

To answer Ohiogals questions. If I missed any other questions, let me know

1. Not his children, CS is ordered (443.30 a month) but not paid with any kind of regularity. Look at post history for that story.

2./3. Keep the car, I pay for it.. Got it! I decided today to lose the cable, the eating out, and several other things to prepare for the inevitable, and I made it work!

4. Even if they were purchased AFTER the separation?

5. Psht... I have no clue, I add the current value to the discovery as well. Thanks for the clarification of how it works.

6. No boyfriend now.. done with the males of this planet. Thinking of forming a club.

Lawyer... Have referrals Ohiogal?

And LDiJ, I was a bit all over the place, but I have a vested emotional interest, I assure you I am more organized with things that don't pain the heart. I really tried to leave out the emotion, and that caused a mess when trying to put thoughts together. Sorry.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

In your division folks, you forgot about the THREE cars that HE has. What are their worth?

 

[mistoffolees]

In your division folks, you forgot about the THREE cars that HE has. What are their worth?

It doesn't matter - whatever the value is, they will have to divide it equally.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

The reason I bring it up is that her portion of the asset may possibly be used to offset the payments of the car.

Were the cars bought during the marriage?

 

[Radia]

The cars were purchased during the marriage, I came into the marriage with a paid off car, that was then totaled. The money from that went to purchase his truck, and then he purchased my car for me several months later. (not that all that matters here)

I dont know what the value on those vehicles at the moment, nor do I know if he has one of them anymore.

I have heard him mention the antique truck (would need to be appraised as its too old for a bluebook check), and the van, but not the Cougar.

The car is currently upside-down, with a balance owed of 12,500 and a value of 8,000 (due to damage ). Dont know if that matters.

I have started drawing up forms for discovery, and already had the vehicle values listed as things I need from him.

The Time Share, we owe 6000 on and it is valued at 18,000. I DO NOT WANT, I didnt want it when he bought it. I have begged him to sell it since that day. So no clue what he will want to do with that.

He is saying no no no no to everything including splitting the debt evenly, he comes up with reasons as to why I should get each thing. That is why I thought I was not being too unreasonable, in the overall. I tossed those ideas at him as a highball, hoping to settle somewhere in the middle, hoping for some dialogue and that we could find an agreement as adults.

I will admit though, that for the year and a half we have been separated he has paid the car payment with me having the car, and has given me 800$ a month. I was hoping to continue that arrangement as a perfect option, or have him pay me support equal to the car payment as the minimum (him continuing the payment and keeping the money as the arrangement).

I really dont want to touch his retirement or have a nasty fight about this, it was just a bargaining chip. I just want this done and over with with a little help so that I can provide for my family.

 

[Shadowbunny]

I have heard him mention the antique truck (would need to be appraised as its too old for a bluebook check), and the van, but not the Cougar.

The most reliable guide to classic car prices is put out by NADA. Go here: Classic Car Values ? NADA Classics Pricing Information ? Car appraisal Book Values to find that particular vehicle. You'll have to know some info about it (fleetside, stepside, size of engine, etc), then they'll give you 3 values, for low, average, and high retail.

(BTW, if it's a shortbed stepside, does he want to sell?! )