broken engagement advice

[thegirlthatruns]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Pennsylvania

Okay, well this is a pretty long and complicated story that started around a year ago. My fiance called off our engagement and ended our relationship and three days later started dating a 17 year old girl who was his student (he was 22). Whether he actually cheated on me or not is kind of foggy, but he had been carrying on at least a friendship that was "too close" in my opinion. Anyway, he had been harassing me about giving the ring back because it "wasn't mine to keep," but I had had others tell me it was a gift so it was my choice. This went on from about December through March, and finally I gave the ring back to him because I feared for my safety because he would send me messages saying things along the line of "I'm asking you one more time to give it back or else..." etc. Then later in June the legal troubles began.
Backtrack to the previous June (2007). My ex and i had attended one of those bridal showings that offered you a free vacation if you attended the event, and it was selling ridiculously priced cookware. I just wanted to take the vacation and leave, but my ex got sucked into the deal and persuaded me that it would be a "good investment for our future together" and "a good investment for our health" to pay $2000 for this cookware! I was young (not even 21) and naive and didn't know if this was a good deal or not, but I believed every word this man said, so in the end he convinced me to sign for the payments, because it would be "good for my credit," and he would cosign with me so he would be the one to pay it off. In retrospect, I probably should not have signed for it, but he told me that he would pay for it immediately with the money he got from getting out of the Marine Corps, and have his grandparents help as a gift for getting out of the Marines. Needless to say, my parents were unhappy with what we did, but my ex told them and promised them and I many times that he had already paid them off and it was a non-issue anymore.
Fast-forward again to this June (2008). My ex's mom's boyfriend came to my door with boxes of this cookware and handed me a bill for $1200! He said that my ex no longer had the means to pay for the cookware, and since I was the signer, I had to pay the rest of it. Apparently when my ex had "promised" he paid it off, he really had lied and stopped making payments (while we were still engaged), so he only actually paid $800. His mom's boyfriend said that he was taking classes and "was unemployed" and couldn't afford the payments, even though he had told a number of people many times that these were paid for. The situation is as follows: now this company has been calling me every day asking for me to make an outrageous payment. My ex and I have had a war of changing the address/name on the bill, and it's getting old because both of us refuse to pay. I am a college student, am unemployed, and have over $40k in college debt, so paying isn't exactly something I can do. I have been hurt and betrayed by this man, but this dilemma puts the icing on the cake. We had agreed through a mutual arrangement (his pastor) that I would give the ring back under the condition that he/any of his kin would have no more contact with me. This problem broke that agreement and had I had known that I was going to be stuck with this debt, I would have sold the ring and used the money to pay for this purchase I got deliberately pressured into.
My question is, is there any way I can "fight" this, or any advice as to how I should handle this situation? I hate to see my credit take a blow, but I cannot pay this off. If I get a bad mark on my credit, how devastating will that be to me? I feel hurt and betrayed and want to find a solution. I realize that this bill is in my name, but is there any action I can take to make the co-signer pay? I'm pretty confused about everything and it's been dragging on for months so any advice would be much-appreciated.

 

[mistoffolees]

You made a simple story very long.

You didn't have to return the wedding ring to him. If he made threats, you could deal with it via the police, but 'or else' isn't a threat. That's over. The ring is now his because you gave it to him.

You both signed for the cookware so you're both liable for the loan. If neither of you pays it, you'll both end up with bad marks on your credit.

You could contact the company and explain the situation and they MIGHT lower the debt if you agree to pay it quickly (then again, they might not). My guess is that it's been turned over to a collection agency so you probably have less leverage.

$1,200 is not that expensive a lesson if you learn from it.

 

[LdiJ]

You made a simple story very long.

You didn't have to return the wedding ring to him. If he made threats, you could deal with it via the police, but 'or else' isn't a threat. That's over. The ring is now his because you gave it to him.

You both signed for the cookware so you're both liable for the loan. If neither of you pays it, you'll both end up with bad marks on your credit.

You could contact the company and explain the situation and they MIGHT lower the debt if you agree to pay it quickly (then again, they might not). My guess is that it's been turned over to a collection agency so you probably have less leverage.

$1,200 is not that expensive a lesson if you learn from it.

I used to own a restaurant, and I fancy myself a gourmet cook, but I have to say that I would NEVER pay that kind of money for cookware. Its absurd. Even for restaurant grade, for the quantity needed for a personal residence, its absurd. Should anyone else reading this thread ever come across a situation where they are pressured into making that kind of purchase...RUN.

That being said...see if you can sell the cookware on Ebay for something to pay towards the bill, send the bill collectors that, and then send them 20 dollars a month on top of that until the balance is paid off. Your credit is still going to be dinged, but at least it will eventually be paid off and will be reflected as paid off.

And again...learn a lesson from this. There is no cookware worth that, nor any other houseware/household products either.

 

[penelope10]

caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/pennsylvaniastatecases/supreme/j-35-99mo.doc --According to this Pennsylvania case, when an engagement is broken the ring must be returned despite whomever broke the engagement---I could not find any case law newer than this. So your ex, even though he broke the engagement, may have been entitled to get the ring back....

As far as the cookware,I agree with LD---put it up for sale on something like Ebay and try to work out a payment plan with the lender.

When I was in college there was a company that did a similar scam by selling cookware for $1200.00. Lots of folks ended up being taken advantage of just as you did. At least his parents brought the cookware over so you could sell it. (Although that probably seems of little consolation at this point in the game).

 

[mistoffolees]

When I was in college there was a company that did a similar scam by selling cookware for $1200.00. Lots of folks ended up being taken advantage of just as you did. At least his parents brought the cookware over so you could sell it. (Although that probably seems of little consolation at this point in the game).

I wouldn't consider this a scam. The way these deals usually work is that you see the pans at a fair or something and they tell you about them. No one forces people to buy them and there's no bait and switch. You get exactly the pans you see. OP is old enough to learn personal responsibility. She agreed to buy the pans and needs to live with the consequences.

Some people are very happy with these sets. My ex-wife bought a set of these $2,000 pans six or eight years ago at the state fair and she's very happy with the purchase. The fact that OP has changed her mind about the purchase doesn't make it a scam.

As for the PA case law, it reads very strangely. It feels as if they had made up their minds on how to dispose of the case and distorted the logic to support it. In any event, that case law disagrees with practice in most states. While it is clearly relevant in PA, one has to wonder how long they will continue to take a position which is contrary to almost everywhere else.

 

[nextwife]

I wouldn't consider this a scam. The way these deals usually work is that you see the pans at a fair or something and they tell you about them. No one forces people to buy them and there's no bait and switch. You get exactly the pans you see. OP is old enough to learn personal responsibility. She agreed to buy the pans and needs to live with the consequences.

Some people are very happy with these sets. My ex-wife bought a set of these $2,000 pans six or eight years ago at the state fair and she's very happy with the purchase. The fact that OP has changed her mind about the purchase doesn't make it a scam.

As for the PA case law, it reads very strangely. It feels as if they had made up their minds on how to dispose of the case and distorted the logic to support it. In any event, that case law disagrees with practice in most states. While it is clearly relevant in PA, one has to wonder how long they will continue to take a position which is contrary to almost everywhere else.

Valid point. If she did not want them, she could have said NO. Engaged and married persons DO still have their OWN opinions and stand by them. Additionally, being engaged or single has no bearing on home item purchases. I bought plenty of great stuff for MY household on my own, long before my engagement or marriage. Relationships should have no bearing on buying stuff for own's household. If you are on the loan, you are responsible. At least you have the stuff.

 

[Ohiogal]

PA caselaw appears to take the idea that an engagement ring is a conditional gift -- given with the stipulation of marriage. If marriage does not take place then the ring is the returned to the giver as the condition has not been met.

 

[tranquility]

As for the PA case law, it reads very strangely. It feels as if they had made up their minds on how to dispose of the case and distorted the logic to support it. In any event, that case law disagrees with practice in most states. While it is clearly relevant in PA, one has to wonder how long they will continue to take a position which is contrary to almost everywhere else.

Lots of case law reads that way. Over half of fourth amendment cases seem designed to find some way to put the guy away. The worse the crime, the more likely stupid "logic" will be used to justify police action--which will later be used on marijuana-boy out on a night on the town.

Many states have specific decisions on engagement ring issues and is not so rare for gifts in contemplation of marriage to have to be returned in a break-up. Heck, the question comes up so often, the board has an FAQ at:
Can an ex-fiance go to court to get the ring back?

I don't know if the law is current, but it would be a good starting point.

 

[Bali Hai]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Pennsylvania

Okay, well this is a pretty long and complicated story that started around a year ago. My fiance called off our engagement and ended our relationship and three days later started dating a 17 year old girl who was his student (he was 22). Whether he actually cheated on me or not is kind of foggy, but he had been carrying on at least a friendship that was "too close" in my opinion. Anyway, he had been harassing me about giving the ring back because it "wasn't mine to keep," but I had had others tell me it was a gift so it was my choice. This went on from about December through March, and finally I gave the ring back to him because I feared for my safety because he would send me messages saying things along the line of "I'm asking you one more time to give it back or else..." etc. Then later in June the legal troubles began.
Backtrack to the previous June (2007). My ex and i had attended one of those bridal showings that offered you a free vacation if you attended the event, and it was selling ridiculously priced cookware. I just wanted to take the vacation and leave, but my ex got sucked into the deal and persuaded me that it would be a "good investment for our future together" and "a good investment for our health" to pay $2000 for this cookware! I was young (not even 21) and naive and didn't know if this was a good deal or not, but I believed every word this man said, so in the end he convinced me to sign for the payments, because it would be "good for my credit," and he would cosign with me so he would be the one to pay it off. In retrospect, I probably should not have signed for it, but he told me that he would pay for it immediately with the money he got from getting out of the Marine Corps, and have his grandparents help as a gift for getting out of the Marines. Needless to say, my parents were unhappy with what we did, but my ex told them and promised them and I many times that he had already paid them off and it was a non-issue anymore.
Fast-forward again to this June (2008). My ex's mom's boyfriend came to my door with boxes of this cookware and handed me a bill for $1200! He said that my ex no longer had the means to pay for the cookware, and since I was the signer, I had to pay the rest of it. Apparently when my ex had "promised" he paid it off, he really had lied and stopped making payments (while we were still engaged), so he only actually paid $800. His mom's boyfriend said that he was taking classes and "was unemployed" and couldn't afford the payments, even though he had told a number of people many times that these were paid for. The situation is as follows: now this company has been calling me every day asking for me to make an outrageous payment. My ex and I have had a war of changing the address/name on the bill, and it's getting old because both of us refuse to pay. I am a college student, am unemployed, and have over $40k in college debt, so paying isn't exactly something I can do. I have been hurt and betrayed by this man, but this dilemma puts the icing on the cake. We had agreed through a mutual arrangement (his pastor) that I would give the ring back under the condition that he/any of his kin would have no more contact with me. This problem broke that agreement and had I had known that I was going to be stuck with this debt, I would have sold the ring and used the money to pay for this purchase I got deliberately pressured into.
My question is, is there any way I can "fight" this, or any advice as to how I should handle this situation? I hate to see my credit take a blow, but I cannot pay this off. If I get a bad mark on my credit, how devastating will that be to me? I feel hurt and betrayed and want to find a solution. I realize that this bill is in my name, but is there any action I can take to make the co-signer pay? I'm pretty confused about everything and it's been dragging on for months so any advice would be much-appreciated.

Sounds like he screwed you over before you had the chance to screw him over. Lick your wounds and move on.

 

[mistoffolees]

PA caselaw appears to take the idea that an engagement ring is a conditional gift -- given with the stipulation of marriage. If marriage does not take place then the ring is the returned to the giver as the condition has not been met.

That's the way I read it.

However, PA seems to be unusual in that the recipient of the ring can be penalized even if she was willing to go through with the marriage and the donor was the one who called it off. In most states, the 'innocent' spouse is generally allowed to keep the ring - even though it's a conditional gift. Essentially, if the recipient is willing to go through with the marriage, then they have been perceived as having met the condition even if the marriage never occurs.

That is, of course, moot here because PA case law is going to carry the day and they're quite clear - she had to return the ring.

 

[Ohiogal]

That's the way I read it.

However, PA seems to be unusual in that the recipient of the ring can be penalized even if she was willing to go through with the marriage and the donor was the one who called it off. In most states, the 'innocent' spouse is generally allowed to keep the ring - even though it's a conditional gift. Essentially, if the recipient is willing to go through with the marriage, then they have been perceived as having met the condition even if the marriage never occurs.

That is, of course, moot here because PA case law is going to carry the day and they're quite clear - she had to return the ring.

Pennsylvania is NOT that unusual. Many states have the same idea.

 

[mistoffolees]

Pennsylvania is NOT that unusual. Many states have the same idea.

Looks like I was mistaken.

I was under the impression that if the donor broke off the engagement that the recipient wouldn't have to return the ring (reading too much Ann Landers, I guess).

Not that I didn't believe you, but I did some research and it agreed with you - that the PA situation is not that uncommon - and may even be the majority of cases:
http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/marriage-more/broken-engagement.html

 

[penelope10]

OK so some of you disagree with my choice of words regarding the pans being a scam....and you are correct that everyone is an adult and can make adult decisions---however many times this "great" cookware is offered to be sold when a life changing event is about to happen. In my case (and I didn't buy the cookware) there was such a cookware party during my senior year of college. LOL, at that time quite a lot of kids were not only thinking about getting their own place, they were also thinking about getting married. And the people who give these parties were trained to SELL. I agree it was up to the OP to make an educated decision as to whether or not she wanted the cookware. But often when one is about have a life changing event, they often don't make the best of decisions...

I liken it to credit card companies who bombard kids who are about ready to graduate from college with credit card applications. Happened to me when I was in college---I chose not to take out any cards. My daughter also got tons of applications at our home---she also chose to tear up the applications.

 

[LdiJ]

OK so some of you disagree with my choice of words regarding the pans being a scam....and you are correct that everyone is an adult and can make adult decisions---however many times this "great" cookware is offered to be sold when a life changing event is about to happen. In my case (and I didn't buy the cookware) there was such a cookware party during my senior year of college. LOL, at that time quite a lot of kids were not only thinking about getting their own place, they were also thinking about getting married. And the people who give these parties were trained to SELL. I agree it was up to the OP to make an educated decision as to whether or not she wanted the cookware. But often when one is about have a life changing event, they often don't make the best of decisions...

I liken it to credit card companies who bombard kids who are about ready to graduate from college with credit card applications. Happened to me when I was in college---I chose not to take out any cards. My daughter also got tons of applications at our home---she also chose to tear up the applications.

That has been going on for a LONG time. I am 51 and I got all those offers when I was a senior in college as well. I did take up a couple of them, charged items and paid the bill promptly and that actually did help me establish credit. However it only works if you understand how credit works and do what is necessary to establish credit.

Unfortunately many young adults don't understand how it works and then just end up in trouble.

 

[penelope10]

That has been going on for a LONG time. I am 51 and I got all those offers when I was a senior in college as well. I did take up a couple of them, charged items and paid the bill promptly and that actually did help me establish credit. However it only works if you understand how credit works and do what is necessary to establish credit.

Unfortunately many young adults don't understand how it works and then just end up in trouble.

LOL well I'm only one year behind you.....I seem to recall that with Sissy some of these credit card companies didn't wait until it was about time for her to graduate. They started sending offers right after she started college---she was only 18 at the time.