Changing the locks 3 years post-divorce (long)?

[WilliamK1974]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? TN

I ask that you read this in its entirety. I am asking this question because my family is concerned for my safety.

We were married on 05/19/2001, and our final decree for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable differences was granted on 07/27/2010. There were no children and all possessions were divided. At that time, she took two of our cats, leaving me with four cats and an ailing elderly dog.

We were and still are joint owners of the home we bought in September 2002. According to the divorce decree, we were to place the house up for sale and use the proceeds from the sale to settle any joint credit card debt. I was to be allowed to live in the house pending the sale, and my ex was to be allowed access to the property at all times to insure that I was keeping it neat, maintained and accessible to prospective buyers. The decree stated that we would each pay half of the mortgage until the sale, and that I would be responsible for the utilities.

After the divorce was granted and I consulted with my attorney about the matter, we both made the decision that it was a bad time to be placing a house on the market due to the mortgage meltdown, and that she would be willing to take a cash payout and sign a quit-claim deed to remove her name from the mortgage. With some help from my family, I made her a reasonable cash offer, which she initially agreed to accept. However, when it came time to meet with her to exchange the money and the quit-claim deed, she stated that she had changed her mind because our offer might mean that she could be walking away leaving alot of money on the table. The house has not been in perfect shape the whole time we owned it, and we attempted to reason with her about this, but she would not give.

This situation left us at an impasse, though she continued to pay her half of the mortgage until around October 2011. We did not seem to be able to have a civil conversation with each other, so my mother volunteered to meet with her. The result of that meeting was that I would take over the full mortgage payment and would attempt to obtain re-financing or otherwise get her name off the mortgage. A cash payout was not discussed at that time.

Between now and then, she asked me to take back both of the cats she had originally taken, and I was let go from my job in November of 2012. I have since been only able to find part-time employment, which has made paying the mortgage and utilities on the house a bit of a struggle.

No mortgage company or finance company would discuss anything about refinancing with me without a signed quit-claim deed in hand, and my ex would not sign one without being paid. However, she continued to badger me about getting her name off the mortgage and accused me of stone-walling. My response that I could not move forward due to her refusal to sign the quit-claim deed seemed to go nowhere.

I had an appraisal done by a licensed appraiser in the state of TN, and the main idea of his appraisal was that the house has lost nearly half of its value compared to our original purchase price. I do not know how that could impact my attempts to re-finance, but I do know that selling the house could leave us owing toward however much might be left of the original mortgage.

My mother decided to meet with her to present this and see where she stood on signing a quit-claim deed. We thought that seeing the appraisal might jolt her into reality about the situation. She brought a bank mortgage person with her, who made the suggestion that she take a small cash payout and sign the quit-claim. When told that that was the plan originally specified by my attorney, she acted like she never had heard that before. She still thinks that she is somehow going to come out of this with a windfall, and refused to face the reality that she will probably end up owing a tidy sum toward the mortgage leftovers. She also used the meeting to complain about how I never answered the phone when she called.

When my mother told her that there were probably many reasons why I would not answer her calls, she pitched a temper tantrum worthy of the biggest two-year-old in the world and stormed out of the restaurant where they met. She was in the car before the mortgage person knew she had left. Everyone who witnessed it looked on in shock. She later sent me an ugly text message threatening to start foreclosure proceedings on the house. I know that the likelihood of that actually happening is low, but it reinforces my original opinion that I am not dealing with someone who is playing with a full deck.

My parents are concerned that she might let someone into the house or otherwise cause me harm overnight or at a time when I could be vulnerable. I am not too worried, but it raises the question of whether or not it would be ok for me to change the locks for safety.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Thank you,
-William

 

[CSO286]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? TN

I ask that you read this in its entirety. I am asking this question because my family is concerned for my safety.

<snip>

Thank you,
-William

Shorten it, then, please.

 

[Zigner]

I don't believe that ANY responsible person would ever suggest that she sign the quit-claim deed at any time prior to the actual closing of the property.

You can change the locks...and she can bust right through the door (legally)

 

[WilliamK1974]

Ok, for the reader who requested the Monarch Notes version...

My ex-wife and I are still the joint owners of what was our marital home. The divorce decree stated that we were to sell the home and that I was to allow her access during the sale. Post-finalization, we decided not to try and sell due to the poor real estate market.

I have been paying the mortgage alone for about 22 months. Since losing my job back in November 2012, this has become a bit of a challenge, and I would really like to refinance at a better rate. However, no mortgage company will do this unless I have a signed quit claim deed from my ex. She will not sign unless she receives some kind of cash payment. Initially, my family tried to help me with this, but she refused the offer. A recent appraisal shows that the house has lost close to half of its value compared to its original purchase price. She refuses to see that there is not a windfall in this for her, and pitched a big temper tantrum about it.

My family is concerned for my safety due to her unreasonable behavior lately, and I wonder if it would be legally ok for me to change the locks. We have been divorced nearly three years, and she has not had any possessions in the house since February or March of 2010, just prior to the divorce.

Thank you,
-William

Shorten it, then, please.

 

[CSO286]

Ok, for the reader who requested the Monarch Notes version...

My ex-wife and I are still the joint owners of what was our marital home. The divorce decree stated that we were to sell the home and that I was to allow her access during the sale. Post-finalization, we decided not to try and sell due to the poor real estate market.

I have been paying the mortgage alone for about 22 months. Since losing my job back in November 2012, this has become a bit of a challenge, and I would really like to refinance at a better rate. However, no mortgage company will do this unless I have a signed quit claim deed from my ex. She will not sign unless she receives some kind of cash payment. Initially, my family tried to help me with this, but she refused the offer. A recent appraisal shows that the house has lost close to half of its value compared to its original purchase price. She refuses to see that there is not a windfall in this for her, and pitched a big temper tantrum about it.

My family is concerned for my safety due to her unreasonable behavior lately, and I wonder if it would be legally ok for me to change the locks. We have been divorced nearly three years, and she has not had any possessions in the house since February or March of 2010, just prior to the divorce.

Thank you,
-William

And since her name is still on the property, she would be quite within her rights to break in.

It's her house too.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? TN

I ask that you read this in its entirety. I am asking this question because my family is concerned for my safety.

We were married on 05/19/2001, and our final decree for divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable differences was granted on 07/27/2010. There were no children and all possessions were divided. At that time, she took two of our cats, leaving me with four cats and an ailing elderly dog.

We were and still are joint owners of the home we bought in September 2002. According to the divorce decree, we were to place the house up for sale and use the proceeds from the sale to settle any joint credit card debt. I was to be allowed to live in the house pending the sale, and my ex was to be allowed access to the property at all times to insure that I was keeping it neat, maintained and accessible to prospective buyers. The decree stated that we would each pay half of the mortgage until the sale, and that I would be responsible for the utilities.

After the divorce was granted and I consulted with my attorney about the matter, we both made the decision that it was a bad time to be placing a house on the market due to the mortgage meltdown, and that she would be willing to take a cash payout and sign a quit-claim deed to remove her name from the mortgage. With some help from my family, I made her a reasonable cash offer, which she initially agreed to accept. However, when it came time to meet with her to exchange the money and the quit-claim deed, she stated that she had changed her mind because our offer might mean that she could be walking away leaving alot of money on the table. The house has not been in perfect shape the whole time we owned it, and we attempted to reason with her about this, but she would not give.

This situation left us at an impasse, though she continued to pay her half of the mortgage until around October 2011. We did not seem to be able to have a civil conversation with each other, so my mother volunteered to meet with her. The result of that meeting was that I would take over the full mortgage payment and would attempt to obtain re-financing or otherwise get her name off the mortgage. A cash payout was not discussed at that time.

Between now and then, she asked me to take back both of the cats she had originally taken, and I was let go from my job in November of 2012. I have since been only able to find part-time employment, which has made paying the mortgage and utilities on the house a bit of a struggle.

No mortgage company or finance company would discuss anything about refinancing with me without a signed quit-claim deed in hand, and my ex would not sign one without being paid. However, she continued to badger me about getting her name off the mortgage and accused me of stone-walling. My response that I could not move forward due to her refusal to sign the quit-claim deed seemed to go nowhere.

I had an appraisal done by a licensed appraiser in the state of TN, and the main idea of his appraisal was that the house has lost nearly half of its value compared to our original purchase price. I do not know how that could impact my attempts to re-finance, but I do know that selling the house could leave us owing toward however much might be left of the original mortgage.

My mother decided to meet with her to present this and see where she stood on signing a quit-claim deed. We thought that seeing the appraisal might jolt her into reality about the situation. She brought a bank mortgage person with her, who made the suggestion that she take a small cash payout and sign the quit-claim. When told that that was the plan originally specified by my attorney, she acted like she never had heard that before. She still thinks that she is somehow going to come out of this with a windfall, and refused to face the reality that she will probably end up owing a tidy sum toward the mortgage leftovers. She also used the meeting to complain about how I never answered the phone when she called.

When my mother told her that there were probably many reasons why I would not answer her calls, she pitched a temper tantrum worthy of the biggest two-year-old in the world and stormed out of the restaurant where they met. She was in the car before the mortgage person knew she had left. Everyone who witnessed it looked on in shock. She later sent me an ugly text message threatening to start foreclosure proceedings on the house. I know that the likelihood of that actually happening is low, but it reinforces my original opinion that I am not dealing with someone who is playing with a full deck.

My parents are concerned that she might let someone into the house or otherwise cause me harm overnight or at a time when I could be vulnerable. I am not too worried, but it raises the question of whether or not it would be ok for me to change the locks for safety.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Thank you,
-William

I agree that she should NOT sign a quit claim deed in advance. That is something that either should be signed at the closing of a re-finance (which obviously is not going to happen if you are upside down on the mortgage) or at the same time that a check is being presented to her for a buyout.

I agree that safety is a valid concern. Why don't you add an extra deadbolt that you can use when you are at home or asleep, and that you would not use when you are away from the home? In that manner you keep to the letter of the court orders allowing her access, while still ensuring your own safety during the times when you would be vulnerable.

 

[WilliamK1974]

I don't believe that ANY responsible person would ever suggest that she sign the quit-claim deed at any time prior to the actual closing of the property.

You can change the locks...and she can bust right through the door (legally)

Well, ok, but I spoke to three different companies about this, including the original lender, and they told me that they would not be able to move forward on a re-fi without the signed quit-claim. I was also told that there is no other way to get her name off the deed and mortgage, and that is what she is bothering me about.

 

[Zigner]

Well, ok, but I spoke to three different companies about this, including the original lender, and they told me that they would not be able to move forward on a re-fi without the signed quit-claim. I was also told that there is no other way to get her name off the deed and mortgage, and that is what she is bothering me about.

It would be monumentally stupid for her to sign a quit-claim without being removed from responsibility for the note. I'm just sayin'

 

[WilliamK1974]

I apologize if I have come across in any way less than civil here.

I guess I have let my frustration about this get to me a little bit. I really thought this problem was solved shortly after the divorce was finalized, but someone got to her and convinced her that we were trying to rip her off, that the house had gained value, and that she was walking away from a great deal of money. So, most of this stems from greed.

After all, the Zillow Zestimate is always right, right?

We all thought that seeing the appraisal would show her the reality of the situation, but it just seems to have made her angry. My parents think that she is out to punish me for divorcing her, and they may have something there. Odd cause I was not the one who was stepping out, but oh, well...

As I said, I am not too worried about my safety, but does seem to act a little stranger every time we get together. And if you can imagine a 38-year old woman yelling and stomping her feet in public, well, you now know a little bit about who I am dealing with.

Thank you for all the advice so far.

-William

 

[WilliamK1974]

It would be monumentally stupid for her to sign a quit-claim without being removed from responsibility for the note. I'm just sayin'

Ok, but what is the answer to this issue?

Frankly, the house is almost a secondary thing. The ultimate goal is that I want her well and truly out of my life, and the house is the last legal tie that we have. Change the locks, change my phone numbers, and move on...

I may have misunderstood what the mortgage companies told me, but I understood that they did not want to do anything until her name was off the original mortgage and deed, and told me that the only way to do that is to have a signed quit-claim.

She badgers me about this, but then will not listen to reason when it is plain that the house is not worth what it once was. She then dumped two of the cats back on me, and still acts like I owe her something.

In her text, she threatened to start foreclosure proceedings. I know that is not legally possible as long as the mortgage is being paid. And she does not seem to realize that the lender is going to want the difference between what is left of the mortgage and what they might get in a foreclosure sale, and that she is going to be responsible for some of that.

 

[Zigner]

You, she and the lender would have to work together. She would sign the quit-claim as a part of the closing process.

 

[single317dad]

Well, ok, but I spoke to three different companies about this, including the original lender, and they told me that they would not be able to move forward on a re-fi without the signed quit-claim. I was also told that there is no other way to get her name off the deed and mortgage, and that is what she is bothering me about.

You're talking to the wrong mortgage brokers. Quit claim is signed at the time of closing. If the other party is unavailable, they can send a proxy. They'd have to be high to sign it in advance.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

I had to refinance my home to buy out my X. Once I had the financing in place (finance company knew of dual ownership), the LAST step of the process was the quit claim deed. HIS attorney mail it to the FINANCE company to complete the process.

You need to clarify with the finance company WHEN they need the quit claim deed - prior to talking and starting the process is rarely when they need it.

 

[LdiJ]

Ok, but what is the answer to this issue?

Frankly, the house is almost a secondary thing. The ultimate goal is that I want her well and truly out of my life, and the house is the last legal tie that we have. Change the locks, change my phone numbers, and move on...

I may have misunderstood what the mortgage companies told me, but I understood that they did not want to do anything until her name was off the original mortgage and deed, and told me that the only way to do that is to have a signed quit-claim.

She badgers me about this, but then will not listen to reason when it is plain that the house is not worth what it once was. She then dumped two of the cats back on me, and still acts like I owe her something.

In her text, she threatened to start foreclosure proceedings. I know that is not legally possible as long as the mortgage is being paid. And she does not seem to realize that the lender is going to want the difference between what is left of the mortgage and what they might get in a foreclosure sale, and that she is going to be responsible for some of that.

SHE cannot start foreclosure proceedings, only the mortgage company can. However she could start a partition proceeding, which would be a bad deal all around for both of you. If she has to pay 1/2 of the mortgage payment while you get the benefit of being able to live in the house, I can certainly understand her frustration. After all her credit is tied up.

If you really want to be done with things you have to resolve the issue of the house and credit cards. Even if she had accepted your previous cash offer that would not have removed her from the mortgage (a quit claim deed alone won't do that) so her credit would have still been tied up. That is the reason why one never signs a quit claim deed unless its at the closing table for a refinance...because a sale or refinance is the only thing that takes someone off a mortgage. On top of that the credit cards that were supposed to be paid with any home equity obviously haven't been paid either...so she is probably unhappy about that.

Bottom line...the house was not handled properly in the divorce and that is the fault of both of you. You both should have done your due diligence to determine that the house could not be sold or refinanced for enough to cover the mortgage plus pay off the credit cards, and you should have come to a different agreement. So now, you have to deal with the credit card debt and the mortgage. You won't be done with each other until you do.


She is being no more unreasonable than you are being unreasonable. In fact, you might be more unreasonable than she is at this point. You have unresolved credit card debt, and an unresolved mortgage, and you have the benefit of being able to live in the house. If I were her, I would be tempted to file bankruptcy against all of the debt, and then let you deal with it all.

 

[WilliamK1974]

SHE cannot start foreclosure proceedings, only the mortgage company can. However she could start a partition proceeding, which would be a bad deal all around for both of you. If she has to pay 1/2 of the mortgage payment while you get the benefit of being able to live in the house, I can certainly understand her frustration. After all her credit is tied up.

If you really want to be done with things you have to resolve the issue of the house and credit cards. Even if she had accepted your previous cash offer that would not have removed her from the mortgage (a quit claim deed alone won't do that) so her credit would have still been tied up. That is the reason why one never signs a quit claim deed unless its at the closing table for a refinance...because a sale or refinance is the only thing that takes someone off a mortgage. On top of that the credit cards that were supposed to be paid with any home equity obviously haven't been paid either...so she is probably unhappy about that.

Bottom line...the house was not handled properly in the divorce and that is the fault of both of you. You both should have done your due diligence to determine that the house could not be sold or refinanced for enough to cover the mortgage plus pay off the credit cards, and you should have come to a different agreement. So now, you have to deal with the credit card debt and the mortgage. You won't be done with each other until you do.


She is being no more unreasonable than you are being unreasonable. In fact, you might be more unreasonable than she is at this point. You have unresolved credit card debt, and an unresolved mortgage, and you have the benefit of being able to live in the house. If I were her, I would be tempted to file bankruptcy against all of the debt, and then let you deal with it all.

Ok, something I did not think was important to mention in all this is that I have paid my share of the debt on the credit cards by tapping into my retirement account. She agreed not to take any of it so the divorce would go through as irreconcilable differences. Once this was done, she acknowledged that I no longer owed anything toward that particular debt. She may not be happy about that, but the divorce did not say that I could not handle it that way. I wanted my share of it over with so I would not have to sit and wait for the house to sell.

So, the only tie we have at this point is the joint ownership of the house. Due diligence or not, her attorney told her to go with it and the judge signed off on it.

While she did pay her half of the mortgage as prescribed in the divorce decree, since I had the benefit of living in the house, I started paying the mortgage on my own nearly two years ago as a gesture of goodwill since she was not living in the house. She has not paid for awhile. I was trying to get information about re-fi, but either the companies I dealt with misunderstood what I was trying to do, or I misunderstood what they were telling me.

The thing that gets me a bit about all this is that she seems to be operating under the impression that there is going to be a big windfall from either my re-fi or a sale of the house, and that just is not so. I really thought the appraisal would bring that home, but it appears not to. I would be absolutely gobsmacked if there was any equity at all at this point. While I am not so attached to the house that I would not be willing to sell, I do not relish the idea of owing on a mortgage where I do not have the benefit of living in the home. And a foreclosure would just end up having a similar result. The lender is not going to just wave bye-bye to any money that might still be owed.

If I make an attempt to re-fi and the prospective lender asks for an appraisal, then I can probably kiss my chances of refinancing good-bye.

I guess she *could* declare bankruptcy, but given her occupation and professional standing in the community, that is pretty unlikely. Odds are she would be dismissed from her employment and her professional reputation would take a body blow. Besides, two can play at that game anyway, and I have alot less to lose. Granted, it is not the ideal outcome, but nor would it be a death sentence.