Final settlement offer - parenting time

[Pancho Alvarez]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Indiana

During the time of the "provisional order" my wife requested and was granted custody - parenting time of our 16 year old daughter was "as daughter and father agree". During these 5 months, that time has pretty much been dictated by my daughter - "circumstances" - homework, laundry, other stuff has forced cancellation of plans that we agreed upon. She has spent the night in the home where she grew up once. We have had dinner & lunch a handful of times (less than 10) We had a loving relationship as father and daughter while the family was living as God intended. I believe that she wants that relationship to continue but I fear that she may not be "encouraged" to spend time with me - in other words put aside some of those things and spend time with your papa (father) (me)

In the final settlement offer, parenting time is again being defined as it was in the provisional order. Which isn't in the best interest of nourishing this relationship to either of us.

3 questions:

Is "custody" a blanket statment - What are some of the options that I have in terms of custody? - her mother is a loving parent that I hope to reconcile with - we've been maried for 24 years.

2) Why would my attorney not specify the options that are available and recommended in the Indiana Parenting time guidleines? we are even close to the state recommended minimums

3) What can I do to change this situation?

 

[mistoffolees]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Indiana

During the time of the "provisional order" my wife requested and was granted custody - parenting time of our 16 year old daughter was "as daughter and father agree". During these 5 months, that time has pretty much been dictated by my daughter - "circumstances" - homework, laundry, other stuff has forced cancellation of plans that we agreed upon. She has spent the night in the home where she grew up once. We have had dinner & lunch a handful of times (less than 10) We had a loving relationship as father and daughter while the family was living as God intended. I believe that she wants that relationship to continue but I fear that she may not be "encouraged" to spend time with me - in other words put aside some of those things and spend time with your papa (father) (me)

In the final settlement offer, parenting time is again being defined as it was in the provisional order. Which isn't in the best interest of nourishing this relationship to either of us.

3 questions:

Is "custody" a blanket statment - What are some of the options that I have in terms of custody? - her mother is a loving parent that I hope to reconcile with - we've been maried for 24 years.

2) Why would my attorney not specify the options that are available and recommended in the Indiana Parenting time guidleines? we are even close to the state recommended minimums

3) What can I do to change this situation?

There are two types of custody:

Legal custody is who gets to make decisions regarding the child. This is most commonly joint unless there is something going on.

Physical custody is where the child spends most of his/her time. I'm assuming that you're referring to physical custody.

To a large degree, when there is joint custody and one parent has a dominant role in physical custody (as appears to be the case for you), then the person with primary physical ends up making most decisions by default. You could fight them, but it's a hard battle to win.

You need to be asking your attorney those questions. Unless there are allegations of abuse, you should, at a minimum, be asking for state guidelines on visitation. The scenario you're describing almost never works out. It's too easy for the child to be busy (or for the custodial parent to convince them that it's too much trouble to go to the other parent's house). If the court orders visitation under the state guidelines, then it's no longer optional - and she will have to visit you.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Indiana

During the time of the "provisional order" my wife requested and was granted custody - parenting time of our 16 year old daughter was "as daughter and father agree". During these 5 months, that time has pretty much been dictated by my daughter - "circumstances" - homework, laundry, other stuff has forced cancellation of plans that we agreed upon. She has spent the night in the home where she grew up once. We have had dinner & lunch a handful of times (less than 10) We had a loving relationship as father and daughter while the family was living as God intended. I believe that she wants that relationship to continue but I fear that she may not be "encouraged" to spend time with me - in other words put aside some of those things and spend time with your papa (father) (me)

In the final settlement offer, parenting time is again being defined as it was in the provisional order. Which isn't in the best interest of nourishing this relationship to either of us.

3 questions:

Is "custody" a blanket statment - What are some of the options that I have in terms of custody? - her mother is a loving parent that I hope to reconcile with - we've been maried for 24 years.

2) Why would my attorney not specify the options that are available and recommended in the Indiana Parenting time guidleines? we are even close to the state recommended minimums

3) What can I do to change this situation?

Why?, because Indiana judges traditionally don't try to impose strict visitation schedules on older teenagers, particularly when the whole situation happens when the teen is already older. Indiana judges do tend to leave it up to the agreement of the teen and the ncp.

Yes, that does contradict the Indiana Parenting Time Guidelines, but that simply the reality of things in Indiana.

You are expected to make the effort to push for time with your 16 year old, and to push for that time to be enjoyable for her so that she will want to spend that time with you.

In a way, it honestly makes sense. In less than two years your daughter will be 18 and will not be subject to any court orders. When an older teen feels forced into a set schedule it often makes them see age 18 as "freedom from the ncp day" and it damages your future adult relationship with the teen.

So, if the excuse is homework, offer to help. If the excuse is laundry, tell her to bring it to your house and do it there. If the excuse is friends, invite her to do something that includes her friends.

Its time to be creative dad...

 

[Pancho Alvarez]

Thanks for the insight and suggestions. I consider myself pretty creative and have suggested that laundry could be done at my house: "it's not practical, it's kinda silly to to bring my laundry when we have a washer and a dryer"

I'm afraid that, in my mind, this doesn't make sense:

"this honestly makes sense. In less than two years your daughter will be 18 and will not be subject to any court orders. When an older teen feels forced into a set schedule it often makes them see age 18 as "freedom from the ncp day" and it damages your future adult relationship with the teen."

I thinks it's safe to assume that most teenagers look to the age of "18" as freedom day regardless if they are the children of divorced parents or not. That seemed to be the feeling from my oldest daughter (now 24, and son age 21)

If as the state guidleine suggests it is in the best interest of both parents to be involved in the mentoring and raising of children - then there has to be some understanding that this isn't forcing a child to visit - it is simply a reminder to put away those things that are excuses so that some sense of "normalcy" can be worked towards. I believe that if a relationship isn't encouraged and simply left up to the whims and moods of a 16 yr. old then there is a possibility that incorrect assumptions or statements of "fact" from another parent may never be addressed, thus making it nearly impossible for any relationship in the future.

 

[mistoffolees]

If as the state guidleine suggests it is in the best interest of both parents to be involved in the mentoring and raising of children - then there has to be some understanding that this isn't forcing a child to visit - it is simply a reminder to put away those things that are excuses so that some sense of "normalcy" can be worked towards. I believe that if a relationship isn't encouraged and simply left up to the whims and moods of a 16 yr. old then there is a possibility that incorrect assumptions or statements of "fact" from another parent may never be addressed, thus making it nearly impossible for any relationship in the future.

Which is why I gave the advice I gave. Tell your attorney you want to request AT A MINIMUM the state guidelines for visitation.

Once visitation is ordered, she will have to visit you.

Unlike LdiJ, I understand the pressure a custodial spouse can put on a child. By ordering visitation, the judge removes (or, at least, lessens) the ability of the custodial parent to interfere with the child's relationship with the non-custodial parent.

I've seen situations where even though the child wants to see the other parent, the custodial parent makes their life miserable when they ask to go. Get reasonable visitation in the final order and don't let your attorney back down from it.

 

[LdiJ]

Which is why I gave the advice I gave. Tell your attorney you want to request AT A MINIMUM the state guidelines for visitation.

Once visitation is ordered, she will have to visit you.

Unlike LdiJ, I understand the pressure a custodial spouse can put on a child. By ordering visitation, the judge removes (or, at least, lessens) the ability of the custodial parent to interfere with the child's relationship with the non-custodial parent.

I've seen situations where even though the child wants to see the other parent, the custodial parent makes their life miserable when they ask to go. Get reasonable visitation in the final order and don't let your attorney back down from it.

I don't disagree with you Misto...the problem is that Indiana judges don't force visitation between ncps and older teens.

Even if he gets a judge to order a set schedule, there is the issue of enforceability. In Indiana, if he were to take mom to court for contempt because the child refused to follow the set schedule, and mom defended herself saying that she couldn't force the child to go, then the judge would be telling dad to "get creative" so that the teen wanted to visit.

That is why his attorney is not pushing anything more...that and possibly dad's hope of reconciling with his wife.

 

[mistoffolees]

I don't disagree with you Misto...the problem is that Indiana judges don't force visitation between ncps and older teens.

Even if he gets a judge to order a set schedule, there is the issue of enforceability. In Indiana, if he were to take mom to court for contempt because the child refused to follow the set schedule, and mom defended herself saying that she couldn't force the child to go, then the judge would be telling dad to "get creative" so that the teen wanted to visit.

That is why his attorney is not pushing anything more...that and possibly dad's hope of reconciling with his wife.

To a large degree, it doesn't matter if it's enforced. It's enough to say "you need to let [daughter] come with me because it's in the court order."

While some people ignore court orders as a matter of course, others tend to do what the court orders them to do.

 

[LdiJ]

To a large degree, it doesn't matter if it's enforced. It's enough to say "you need to let [daughter] come with me because it's in the court order."

While some people ignore court orders as a matter of course, others tend to do what the court orders them to do.

Unless you are in Indiana where literally everyone knows that older teens get to call the shots...

I am simply stating reality.

 

[mistoffolees]

Unless you are in Indiana where literally everyone knows that older teens get to call the shots...

I am simply stating reality.

And you're simply missing the point.

OP seems to think that his daughter wants to see him, but the mother is discouraging visitation. If the daughter wants to see him, but is bowing to pressure from the mother, the court order will give her the ammunition to resist her mother's pressure.

No, you can't force an older teen to see a parent in lots of states. But that doesn't mean it's not worth getting reasonable visitation in the decree.

 

[LdiJ]

And you're simply missing the point.

OP seems to think that his daughter wants to see him, but the mother is discouraging visitation. If the daughter wants to see him, but is bowing to pressure from the mother, the court order will give her the ammunition to resist her mother's pressure.

No, you can't force an older teen to see a parent in lots of states. But that doesn't mean it's not worth getting reasonable visitation in the decree.

If you are correct on the bolded, I agree with you.

However I interpreted his initial post differently. I took it that the daughter was somewhat reluctant (for any one of several potential reasons) and that mom wasn't encouraging/forcing her. He wasn't critical of his wife at all, which seemed to back that up.

 

[Pancho Alvarez]

Thanks for the input as well as stating what your opinions are.

I need to see my daughter more than I am.

My feeling is that my soon to be ex wife can do more to facilitate parenting time - specifically she can remind her that our (father-daughter) relationship is important and that time needs to be made - regardless of it is "convenient" or not. I have made every effort to let my daughter know that her former home is available to her and friends to "hang out" (while I'm there of course) laundry can be done at her former home, I'm available to help with homework. Just please make time for us.

I miss my daughter (and my wife) terribly. I do what I can to demonstrate love for my wife - but the ball is in her court and I honer her decision to do what she feels is best for her. It's obvious that the Indiana guidleines for parenting time mandate that a minimum amount of time be made available for our relationship and if the court will mandate that the state guidlelines be followed it will be easier for my wife to facilitate the relationship.

Is that asking too much?

 

[mistoffolees]

Yes, it is too much to expect your ex wife to be working for your benefit.

While it is generally better for kids to have relationships with both parents, you can't count on your ex-wife to do that. Perhaps with a court order, she MIGHT, but it ultimately will be up to you.

I would ask your attorney to request state guidelines on visitation before the agreement becomes final and then work from there.

 

[Pancho Alvarez]

Working it out ourselves

I hope it doesn't appear that my request for more parenting is to the exclusive benefit of me. That's not my intent. My wife has bad days, my daughter has bad days, I have bad days. The way things are now we don't have much of a avenue to help each other with the trials and truimphs of each day.

I do intent to seek the state minimum for parenting time, but that request will be made to my wife. I suggested and she agreed that it would be better that we work together towards a final compromise and solution of all things that involve a divorce. We both agree that to be able to communicate with each other rather than through our attorneys is for the better.

There are several things to be finalized, most of them are financial - some will be very difficult - house is for sale but we are "upside down". Students loans for the education of 2 college graduates and the repayment of those has soured those relationships to a point. Her car was financed in my name, they want her to continue to "possess" it while she makes payments and I will be held "free from harm". What exactly dies that mean" shoud I have her refinance it herself?

Those things pale in comparison to the importance of my seemingly diminshing role as my 16 yrs. old's father. I know that it is for my daughter beneift to stay involved in her daily life. I know that I can be a helper to my wife as she deals with living as a "single mother". There is a reason that God intended for both parents to be under the same roof while raising children - unfortunately, divorce not only grieves God, but it also affects al involved - I just want ot be able to honor my obligations while being seen as a helper and not be viewed as a hinderer.