Life Insurance for non-custodial parent

[btbarbara]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? GA

My ex and I are in the process of divorcing and will have joint legal custody of our two preschool boys with me having primary physical custody. I have life insurance on myself but through a billing mixup my husband's policy lapsed. When we first discussed this, he refused to get life insurance on himself unless he could make his mother the beneficiary and have the understanding that she would manage the money for the boys until they are 18. Later, he conceded that if I was willing to pay the premiums, he would cooperate with getting a policy that either named me as the beneficiary or named the boys with me managing the money until they are 18. Now he wants this taken out of the agreement altogether and says that he will not cooperate with me taking out a life insurance policy on him.

It is my understanding that in some states the non-custodial parent is required to maintain life insurance for the children's benefit but I can't find anything about this in GA. Does anyone know if there is such a requirement?

Do I have a legal right to take out life insurance on him for the children's benefit if he does not wish to cooperate? I'm willing to pay for the insurance, he'll only have to sign the application and complete whatever medical exam is required.

If the children are named as the beneficiaries on the insurance, what happens to the money if he dies before they turn 18? Is it up to their legal guardian (me) to manage the money for them or is it just inaccessible until they are adults or what?

I know this all sounds morbid and I'm not planning on having him bumped off or anything. I have just seen in the last year that anything can happen. I lost my job and took a major pay cut and the children had some major medical expenses all at once so if not for the child support (when he pays it), I don't know what we would do right now. I want to know that if something like this ever happens again, the children will be taken care of no matter what.

 

[LdiJ]

I don't see the big deal for him if you are willing to pay for it. However, your children will also have social security survivor's benefits if anything happens to him, so they won't be doing totally without.

 

[Ronin]

Unless the decree says otherwise there is no requirement the NCP name the CP or the children as beneficiaries of his life insurance. Sometimes the decree may require enough coverage to at least continue support payments until the child is an adult. However in cases where the NCP is a strong income earner, social security survivor benefits for the children can easily offset any child support lost.

It is understandable the NCP has little inclination to allow his untimely demise to be a financial windfall for the CP, and may have trust issues with how it will be managed. He is within his rights to designate whoever he chooses as a beneficiary to dole out the money as he wishes to his children.

However there is little to prevent you from obtaining and paying for a life insurance policy on your ex with yourself as the beneficiary. I have such a policy on my ex, although I am the NCP. Alhtough it is only about a third of what I have on myself, the loss of either parent can be financially devastating. While I certainly wish no harm on my ex, I understand the financial impact of an unexpected loss. Also in my case my ex will not be the direct benficiary of my own life insurance policy, since I do have some minor trust issues at this point and would like to ensure both short and long terms goals for my children are met.

 

[btbarbara]

Thank you! Right now, my parents are the beneficiaries on my life insurance with the understanding that they will use the money to support my children until they are grown. Honestly, I don't think that my Ex will take custody of the children if something happens to me. He's threatened several times recently to call DFACS and get the children taken away from me and put into foster care because he doesn't want custody. I hope that if anything happens to me, my parents will be able to get custody of my children but even if Ex does, I trust that my parents will make sure the children are cared for. I am talking to an estate attorney about changing my will after the divorce is finalized and will explore the various options for making it official that my life insurance benefits are to be used for the children.

As for Ex, if something happens to him, it is definite that I will still have custody of the children. And if his mother is the beneficiary on his life insurance, I have no confidence that she will do anything toward supporting the children (she has major issues with me...to the point that she has in the past hurt the children or risked hurting them just to get at me). I don't really care if I'm the beneficiary or a trust for the children or what...as long as I know that the money can be accessed and used for their support if necessary before they turn 18.

The reason I originally agreed to pay for the insurance was because that way I could be absolutely certain that the insurance was in place and paid up. I understand that he doesn't want me to benefit financially from his death, but I have the children and have the responsibility for making sure they are taken care of. When we were married, he agreed that it was important to have insurance and we both had the recommended 10 times our annual salary. Now, I'm only asking for an amount equal to what his child support would be until the boys are 18. Just a little something that would be there for them if it's needed.

Right now, he says that he's changed his mind and will not cooperate even if I'm paying the premiums. There was a paragraph in our SA that said he would cooperate but now he's taken that out and my lawyer is telling me not to fight him on it because I'll be able to get the insurance whether it's in the SA or not as long as I'm willing to pay for it.

 

[mistoffolees]

Thank you! Right now, my parents are the beneficiaries on my life insurance with the understanding that they will use the money to support my children until they are grown.

Sauce for the goose....

That's essentially what he wants to do. If it's OK for you to do it, then it should be OK for him to do it. Why did you object? It sounds like he was willing to do it on that basis until you dug your heels in.

 

[btbarbara]

Sauce for the goose....

That's essentially what he wants to do. If it's OK for you to do it, then it should be OK for him to do it. Why did you object? It sounds like he was willing to do it on that basis until you dug your heels in.

Rereading my original post, I wasn't very clear. When I first pointed out to him that his policy had lapsed (our bank was bought out and somehow the insurance company managed to get the automatic withdrawals changed for my policy but not for his...I didn't notice the oversight until it was too late to do anything about it), he said that he would not reinstate the policy because I was the beneficiary. I reminded him that he needed to have insurance for the boys and he said no...that he did not want me getting any money and if he did get insurance, he would make his mother the beneficiary so that she could decide what to do with the money. In discussions with both him and his mother, they said repeatedly that she would "manage the money" until the boys were 18 and they could have "whatever money was left" when the boys turned 18, but that I wouldn't get a penny. When I offered to pay for insurance to take care of the boys, he originally agreed but now has changed his mind.

As I mentioned, if something happens to me, there is no reason to believe that Ex will actually take custody of the children so it makes no sense for my life insurance money to go to him. He doesn't pay child support on a regular basis as it is so it's hard to believe that he would use a windfall like that to take care of the children. In fact, even though we were "happily married" when we first took out the life insurance, we made my parents the beneficiaries on mine at that time for the simple reason that he admitted even then that if something happened to me he "wouldn't be able" to raise the boys. Right now, my parents and I have an agreement that they would use the money to take care of the children no matter who has custody of them (but if something happens to me, they will be fighting for custody). I have spoken to an estate attorney about how to make that official, but she advised me that I need to wait until after the divorce is final, then modify my will to spell out all that. As soon as the divorce is finalized, I will get that taken care of. Honestly, I don't know if it will involve setting up a trust fund for the children or just writing something in the will that my parents will pay support to whoever has the kids or what. I'm not an attorney so I don't know how that will play out, but I will be making it official.

 

[CourtClerk]

if he did get insurance, he would make his mother the beneficiary so that she could decide what to do with the money. In discussions with both him and his mother, they said repeatedly that she would "manage the money" until the boys were 18 and they could have "whatever money was left" when the boys turned 18, but that I wouldn't get a penny.

This is, once again, exactly what you are doing on your end - no matter how you decide to try and clean it up. So agree to it.

 

[btbarbara]

This is, once again, exactly what you are doing on your end - no matter how you decide to try and clean it up. So agree to it.

It doesn't matter at this point because that offer is no longer on the table. Now he's saying that he will not get life insurance (for the boys' benefit) at all. I'm willing to pay for the insurance as long as he signs the application and does whatever physical might be required but he says he will not cooperate.

For the record though, it is not the same thing. His mother has said that she would not give me a penny...for the boys or otherwise. She would invest the money or use it for the funeral and whatever else she deems appropriate and the boys can have what's left when they're adults, but she will make sure that I never get anything from it...even to support them. I have left the money to the people who I assume will have custody of the children (since my mother-in-law says it's too much trouble to even have them for a weekend visit at her house), I have made my wishes very clear to them...even if Ex or MIL have custody of the children, I expect my parents to pay them support and make sure that the kids have what they need, and I will make that agreement legally binding as soon as the divorce is final. The only reason I haven't done it yet is that the estate attorney advised me not to make changes to my will until the divorce was finalized.

Maybe it's just me, but I see that as a big difference. In my situation, I will make it official that the money is to take care of the children until they're 18...that's a big difference from saying that he'll give the money to someone to hold until they turn 18.

Again though, he's not even willing to do that anymore. He offered that in exchange for $200/month less child support. The child support is bound by the mediation agreement now and it's more than he wants to pay, so he says he can't afford insurance and he refuses to let me get the insurance because he doesn't want me to benefit from it. My lawyer says not to sweat it because as long as the divorce isn't final yet, I have a legal right to get insurance on my husband whether he likes it or not (wrong...he still has to sign the app) and if he does refuse, then we shouldn't have any trouble getting a court order to make him cooperate as long as I pay the premiums.

I'm just trying to figure it out before I sign the SA because we did have a paragraph in there saying that he would cooperate on the insurance and now he's taken that out. If it's not a problem for me to get the insurance, then I can go ahead and sign...if it is going to be a problem, then I need to fight to get that paragraph back in.

Thank you for your help!

 

[mistoffolees]

It doesn't matter at this point because that offer is no longer on the table. Now he's saying that he will not get life insurance (for the boys' benefit) at all.

That's what happens when you turn down reasonable offers.

His initial offer was exactly the same thing as what you are doing. You were out of line by refusing it. That makes you look unreasonable and self-centered. He may be over-reacting, but that's not unusual when dealing with someone who insists on one-sided agreements.

It's also unreasonable for you to insist that the money come to you. The money is to support the children. If their grandmother would rather buy them clothes, food, or medical care rather than giving you the money, that's not unreasonable.

And you're not doing yourself any favors by claiming that he wouldn't take the kids. You really don't know what he'd do. Just given the tone of your posts, it wouldn't surprise me if he's making comments just to drive you crazy. You're responsible for ensuring the children's health and safety while they're with you. You have no control over what he would do after your death.

if I remember correctly, you are still in mediation. Ask for both parties to be required to have $xx in insurance to benefit the children. No reasonable judge would refuse that, and most mediators will accept it, as well.

 

[CourtClerk]

That's what happens when you turn down reasonable offers.

His initial offer was exactly the same thing as what you are doing. You were out of line by refusing it. That makes you look unreasonable and self-centered. He may be over-reacting, but that's not unusual when dealing with someone who insists on one-sided agreements.

It's also unreasonable for you to insist that the money come to you. The money is to support the children. If their grandmother would rather buy them clothes, food, or medical care rather than giving you the money, that's not unreasonable.

And you're not doing yourself any favors by claiming that he wouldn't take the kids. You really don't know what he'd do. Just given the tone of your posts, it wouldn't surprise me if he's making comments just to drive you crazy. You're responsible for ensuring the children's health and safety while they're with you. You have no control over what he would do after your death.

if I remember correctly, you are still in mediation. Ask for both parties to be required to have $xx in insurance to benefit the children. No reasonable judge would refuse that, and most mediators will accept it, as well.

I absolutely agree with this post 100%

 

[btbarbara]

Sorry...I've got a killer headache this evening and apparently am not expressing myself very well.

Mediation is over. It was a one-day thing. My attorney told me we were not leaving until we reached a full agreement and after 6 hours, when I asked the mediator to adjourn she said that we were close to reaching an agreement and really needed to get it done before we left. When I told her I needed time to think, she said that I could take a minute to walk outside for some fresh air (at $200/hour). I realize now that I should have stood my ground but essentially I felt like I was being held hostage so I gave in and signed to get out of there.

I understand your cynicism and where it comes from and I can respect that. There is no way that I will convince you that there is a difference between his situation and mine and I don't need to. The MIL will not use the money to buy the children clothes, medical care, or anything else...she has been very clear about that. She will put it up until they are 18. She actually wrote a letter to my attorney explaining to him why she felt that her son should not have to pay child support at all (basically because I'm mean and because I have an education and higher earning potential than him) I'm not saying that he has to make me the beneficiary...if the money can be put into a trust fund and let the trustee dole it out as appropriate for the children's care, then that's great. Honestly, I don't think I'll ever need it. I was always the primary breadwinner in the family and I know that I will do whatever is necessary to take care of my children. I've just learned in the last year that a couple of unfortunate events occurring at the same time can really mess things up so I'm trying to plan ahead.

As for him taking the children if something happens to me...I honestly don't know if he would or not. When our first son was born and we got life insurance and wrote our wills, he said that if anything ever happened to me, he would not be able to raise the baby and we talked about who would get custody. His choice was either my parents or my cousin and his wife. It was his call at that time to make my parents the beneficiaries on my life insurance and me the beneficiary on his. When we went to mediation, I said that we needed to discuss custody and he just about fell out of his chair. He said there was no question that I would have custody. By the end of the day even the mediator was laughing because he kept saying that he wanted more visitation but every time we offered more, he backed down and made excuses. Over the last 10 months, he has taken the children overnight 5 times. He sees them once a month or less (for a few hours) and rarely even talks to them on the phone between visits. Just last week, he threatened to call DFACS and "tell them you're a bad mother and get the kids taken away." When I asked him what would happen if the kids were taken away from me, he said that they would have to go into foster care because he couldn't take them. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to make sure that the money follows the children. If he were going to put in writing (as I am doing) that his mother will use the life insurance money to pay monthly support for the children or to buy food, clothes, medicine, summer camp, whatever for them, I might be willing to consider that...but he's not. And that makes it different.

And I'm not asking him to do anything really. I think life insurance is important so I'm willing to pay for it. All he would have to do is sign the application.

Also, his offer was not that great...it was in exchange for reducing the child support by $200/month. Considering that at that time he was only offering me $300/month for 2 children, you do the math. By the way, the presumptive amount was just over $900 per month.

At any rate, thank you for giving me some things to think about. I'm really not trying to argue with you...just make myself clear...it's difficult to cover all the relevant details in this kind of venue. I appreciate you taking the time to read and give me your take on the situation.

 

[CourtClerk]

The MIL will not use the money to buy the children clothes, medical care, or anything else...she has been very clear about that. She will put it up until they are 18.

So, which is it? The top, or the botttom?

His mother has said that she would not give me a penny...for the boys or otherwise. She would invest the money or use it for the funeral and whatever else she deems appropriate and the boys can have what's left when they're adults

Your inconsistencies have nothing to do with a headache, you just can't keep your story straight.

 

[btbarbara]

So, which is it? The top, or the botttom?

Your inconsistencies have nothing to do with a headache, you just can't keep your story straight.

I don't see any inconsistency...she said that she would use the life insurance to pay for his funeral (most people do...funerals are expensive) and whatever SHE wants to and then the rest will be invested or put away until the children are adults. She did not say that she would use the money to care for or in any way support the children until they are adults. She believes that's my responsibility...as far as she is concerned, he has no obligation to the children even now.

 

[btbarbara]

Also, as you all pointed out, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If he wants to take out a life insurance policy on me with him as the beneficiary, I will be happy to oblige...but I'm not going to pay for a policy with him as the beneficiary. Whatever premiums I pay will go toward something that is legally bound to take care of my children. I'm not asking for anything different from him. He can get five million dollars worth of insurance with his mother as the beneficiary and she can call it a college fund for the boys or build a new house or gamble it away in Vegas...that's between him and her. But if I'm going to pay the premiums (which I am willing to do) then I'm going to specify that the money is for the children. I never said that I had to be the beneficiary...just that the money has to go to the children.

All that has transpired up to this point is really moot anyway. My question at this point is: There was a paragraph in the Settlement Agreement saying that he will cooperate with me in getting a life insurance policy to be used to care for the children until they are 18 and I will be responsible for paying the premiums. He took that paragraph out (after the mediation was over...the day of mediation he said it was fine but the mediation agreement does not mention it since there was no debate). If I sign the SA as it is now, without that paragraph in there, do I have a right to get insurance on him with me or the children or whoever as beneficiary? If I try and he refuses to cooperate, is it possible (and is it likely) that a judge would order him to cooperate?

If the answer to those questions is yes, then I can sign the agreement as it is. If the answer to those questions is no, then I need to fight to get that paragraph back in.

I apologize if I've offended anyone or come off as argumentative or selfish or whatever. I do have a headache and I have a lot on my mind right now and yes, this is an emotionally charged time so I tend to get defensive. I do appreciate those who are reading and attempting to give advice.

 

[mistoffolees]

Also, as you all pointed out, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If he wants to take out a life insurance policy on me with him as the beneficiary, I will be happy to oblige...but I'm not going to pay for a policy with him as the beneficiary. Whatever premiums I pay will go toward something that is legally bound to take care of my children. I'm not asking for anything different from him. He can get five million dollars worth of insurance with his mother as the beneficiary and she can call it a college fund for the boys or build a new house or gamble it away in Vegas...that's between him and her. But if I'm going to pay the premiums (which I am willing to do) then I'm going to specify that the money is for the children. I never said that I had to be the beneficiary...just that the money has to go to the children.

All that has transpired up to this point is really moot anyway. My question at this point is: There was a paragraph in the Settlement Agreement saying that he will cooperate with me in getting a life insurance policy to be used to care for the children until they are 18 and I will be responsible for paying the premiums. He took that paragraph out (after the mediation was over...the day of mediation he said it was fine but the mediation agreement does not mention it since there was no debate). If I sign the SA as it is now, without that paragraph in there, do I have a right to get insurance on him with me or the children or whoever as beneficiary? If I try and he refuses to cooperate, is it possible (and is it likely) that a judge would order him to cooperate?

If the answer to those questions is yes, then I can sign the agreement as it is. If the answer to those questions is no, then I need to fight to get that paragraph back in.

I apologize if I've offended anyone or come off as argumentative or selfish or whatever. I do have a headache and I have a lot on my mind right now and yes, this is an emotionally charged time so I tend to get defensive. I do appreciate those who are reading and attempting to give advice.

You really need to step back and look at things. He proposed exactly the same thing you are doing. You may think that your mother can be trusted to spend the money on the kids and his mother can't, but he may well see it exactly the opposite. As far as legalities are concerned, your arrangement is EXACTLY what he proposed.

Just on the off chance that you'll actually LISTEN this time, signing a mediation agreement is not final. Until the judge signs off on the divorce decree, nothing is set in stone. (After the judge signs it, you need a MAJOR change in circumstances or major evidence of fraud to change it). So if you don't like the mediation agreement, have your attorney take the issue to court. It will look bad on your part (especially when combined with the positions you're taking on several issues as discussed above), but you always have the right to ask for a hearing to let the judge decide. Of course, that's going to make your $200 per hour look like chump change.

Before you do that, you really need to get someone neutral to go through this with you so that you can decide what's worth fighting over. I think you'll find that most of what you're demanding isn't going to happen - or isn't a life or death matter.

Oh, and btw, in most states, you should be able to get an insurance policy on your stbx without his cooperation (corporations do it all the time). You simply need to show that you have a financial interest in his survival. It should not be too hard to get a policy for the amount of unpaid child support. You are probably not going to get a million dollar policy in his name, though. Also, you're going to have to settle for the highest policy rates if he won't go in for a physical.