Retirement issues--ex furious about final decree

[awake1]

What is the name of your state? KY

My ex has fought every aspect of our divorce since 2005. You might remember he is STILL living on my land with his fiance and her kids even though the judge ruled he had to vacate by Dec. 2007.

Well, our teenager daughter tells me he sat her down and ranted and raved this weekend over the judge's ruling on our retirement. The judge ruled that our respective retirement funds are to be divided. Actually, the CO says "whoever has more on the date of the divorce will give the difference to the other." (Shouldn't it have said "whoever has more will give HALF the difference to the other?")

In 2006 my atty. advised me that my retirement (state) could not be touched in a divorce so that I was free to withdraw it when I was not rehired in my district. I was financially desperate at the time (obviously since, most of it was lost to taxes and penalties for early withdrawal.)

My ex refused to disclose his retirement amounts (He has a 401K and IRA.) After 6 months of his noncompliance my atty. finally did a QDRO (I think that's what it's called.) I haven't been informed of the amount yet, but it is significantly more than the $3,000 he originally claimed in court 2 years ago. My ex is insisting that I have $20,000. It was never that much. It was closer to $14,000 (before the IRS took much of it.) I now have zero in retirement as my part-time job with the state school board did not offer retirement.

My question is have you ever heard of a situation like this and what will likely happen? I know you cannot predict what a judge will do, but I don't know what the rules are in situations like this.

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state? KY

My ex has fought every aspect of our divorce since 2005. You might remember he is STILL living on my land with his fiance and her kids even though the judge ruled he had to vacate by Dec. 2007.

Well, our teenager daughter tells me he sat her down and ranted and raved this weekend over the judge's ruling on our retirement. The judge ruled that our respective retirement funds are to be divided. Actually, the CO says "whoever has more on the date of the divorce will give the difference to the other." (Shouldn't it have said "whoever has more will give HALF the difference to the other?")

In 2006 my atty. advised me that my retirement (state) could not be touched in a divorce so that I was free to withdraw it when I was not rehired in my district. I was financially desperate at the time (obviously since, most of it was lost to taxes and penalties for early withdrawal.)

My ex refused to disclose his retirement amounts (He has a 401K and IRA.) After 6 months of his noncompliance my atty. finally did a QDRO (I think that's what it's called.) I haven't been informed of the amount yet, but it is significantly more than the $3,000 he originally claimed in court 2 years ago. My ex is insisting that I have $20,000. It was never that much. It was closer to $14,000 (before the IRS took much of it.) I now have zero in retirement as my part-time job with the state school board did not offer retirement.

My question is have you ever heard of a situation like this and what will likely happen? I know you cannot predict what a judge will do, but I don't know what the rules are in situations like this.

You could withdraw your retirement which was 14k and his was 3k? You owe him money. So there are major issues here. He was being noncompliant? Or you were?

You need to be prepared to PROVE how much you had in your retirement. If it was more than his then you have issues because you OWE him per the divorce decree.

 

[awake1]

He lied about the 3K

He used the date of our separation in 2005 and gave only the amount in one fund. The judge made this ruling in 2007. Our retirement amounts in March 2007 were what were involved. Mine was zero. His was probably somewhere around $20,000.

Even though I was following atty's advice when I withdrew? Even though state retirements are not considered in divorces in our state?

 

[nextwife]

He used the date of our separation in 2005 and gave only the amount in one fund. The judge made this ruling in 2007. Our retirement amounts in March 2007 were what were involved. Mine was zero. His was probably somewhere around $20,000.

Even though I was following atty's advice when I withdrew? Even though state retirements are not considered in divorces in our state?

So you think you should get ALL your retirement (whatever you did with it when you yanked it) and half his?

 

[awake1]

My attorney thinks this. I have no idea what happens in these situations. I was just listening to my atty.

My ex did so many things as we awaited the final hearing that I would have thought were not allowed (cancelling my insurance, selling a marital vehicle and keeping all the money, keeping checks that were sent to me to our old address, lying about his income to pay less CS) that I didn't question it much when my atty. told me the retirement would be handled this way. I figured it was part of it....

 

[mistoffolees]

He used the date of our separation in 2005 and gave only the amount in one fund. The judge made this ruling in 2007. Our retirement amounts in March 2007 were what were involved. Mine was zero. His was probably somewhere around $20,000.

Even though I was following atty's advice when I withdrew? Even though state retirements are not considered in divorces in our state?

Sorry, either your attorney gave you bad advice or you misunderstood. Taking money out and then claiming that the balance was zero is fraudulent. You could go to jail for that.

 

[awake1]

I asked my atty. several times

I rephrased my question, asked him to rephrase his answer. He told me it was OK to withdraw in 2006. I have not lied to the court or to my atty. I told my atty. that on the date of the divorce I had no retirement funds. I have not seen any documentation that he has submitted regarding my retirement. I have not testified or signed anything saying anything about an amount in retirement.

If this is indeed the case, I am prepared to fully disclose the amount I had in 2006. No one has asked me this, not the judge, not the other attorney, not my ex.

I wouldn't mind splitting the difference of the 2006 amount in my acct and that in his. No one ever asked this, the judge said the amounts in 2007.

 

[Ohiogal]

I rephrased my question, asked him to rephrase his answer. He told me it was OK to withdraw in 2006. I have not lied to the court or to my atty. I told my atty. that on the date of the divorce I had no retirement funds. I have not seen any documentation that he has submitted regarding my retirement. I have not testified or signed anything saying anything about an amount in retirement.

If this is indeed the case, I am prepared to fully disclose the amount I had in 2006. No one has asked me this, not the judge, not the other attorney, not my ex.

I wouldn't mind splitting the difference of the 2006 amount in my acct and that in his. No one ever asked this, the judge said the amounts in 2007.

You dissipated marital assets. By not disclosing that, you have engaged in fraud (even if under the advice of your attorney) which would allow your ex to reopen the divorce and property settlement. You have issues.

 

[awake1]

How do I fix this?

And how was my ex able to sell a marital vehicle without my consent, my signature? I didn't get half the proceeds. Wasn't this equally wrong?

How was he able to cancel my car insurance without my consent? He must have also gotten the refund on that insurance....that was also during the long separation.

He also lied in court and said his income was $2,000 a month. It was more than $3,000. The CS he has paid the past 3 years has been based on that fraudulent amount of 2K. Isn't that equally wrong?

He did not attend CO-ed parenting class.

How is he able to live on my land against court order? I could go on.... He has ignored every directive the court has given him and nothing has happened to him and yet I follow my atty.'s advice on this one thing and I'm headed for jail?

Please tell me how I can fix this at this point in time?

 

[Ohiogal]

And how was my ex able to sell a marital vehicle without my consent, my signature? I didn't get half the proceeds. Wasn't this equally wrong?

How was he able to cancel my car insurance without my consent? He must have also gotten the refund on that insurance....that was also during the long separation.

He also lied in court and said his income was $2,000 a month. It was more than $3,000. The CS he has paid the past 3 years has been based on that fraudulent amount of 2K. Isn't that equally wrong?

He did not attend CO-ed parenting class.

How is he able to live on my land against court order? I could go on.... He has ignored every directive the court has given him and nothing has happened to him and yet I follow my atty.'s advice on this one thing and I'm headed for jail?

Please tell me how I can fix this at this point in time?

Did you know about the car insurance at the time of the final divorce? Did you know about the car being sold at the time of the final divorce? That was the time to bring it up if so.
As for the parenting class -- if it was court ordered at the time of the final divorce and nto before -- go for contempt. CS is modifiable. Go back and modify it. If he didn't know about you dissipating your retirement fund because you never disclosed it, that is an issue. You need to talk to an attorney about the retirement and explain the whole thing with someone (not the original attorney but another one) who can tell you what your problems may be.
If he is going against the final decree -- take him back for contempt.
And no one said you were going to jail. What i said is the final divorce settlement could be reopened and divided.

 

[awake1]

I guess I got screwed

We had so many issues at the time of final hearing and he had postponed so many hearings, that I didn't want to push every issue. Now I realize I should have. Those things were on the detailed list I gave my atty., but he didn't bring those up.

I thought my atty. did a good job after it was over because the settlement seemed fair to me. I will take your advice and get a second opinion about the retirement.

 

[Bali Hai]

We had so many issues at the time of final hearing and he had postponed so many hearings, that I didn't want to push every issue. Now I realize I should have. Those things were on the detailed list I gave my atty., but he didn't bring those up.

I thought my atty. did a good job after it was over because the settlement seemed fair to me. I will take your advice and get a second opinion about the retirement.

I suggest you cough up his share of the retirement BEFORE you get your second opinion!!

Has the family justice system really made you women so stupid??!!

 

[LdiJ]

We had so many issues at the time of final hearing and he had postponed so many hearings, that I didn't want to push every issue. Now I realize I should have. Those things were on the detailed list I gave my atty., but he didn't bring those up.

I thought my atty. did a good job after it was over because the settlement seemed fair to me. I will take your advice and get a second opinion about the retirement.

You could also instruct your attorney to draw up the QDRO fairly. That would also resolve the problem.

The thing is however, that you did have the right to withdraw the money and use it...particularly since you used it for necessities. Where you may have gone wrong is that you did not disclose it.

 

[Ohiogal]

You could also instruct your attorney to draw up the QDRO fairly. That would also resolve the problem.

The thing is however, that you did have the right to withdraw the money and use it...particularly since you used it for necessities. Where you may have gone wrong is that you did not disclose it.

Actually she may not have had the right -- the reason being in many states there is a restraining order put in place prohibiting that. She needs to find out about that. But the biggest problem is she did NOT disclose it. You are correct about that.

 

[LdiJ]

Actually she may not have had the right -- the reason being in many states there is a restraining order put in place prohibiting that. She needs to find out about that. But the biggest problem is she did NOT disclose it. You are correct about that.

If she disclosed it, and it was included in the property settlement calculations, then it really wouldn't be a problem....at least in this particular instance. Apparently his retirement account was higher than hers, so the disclosure would have guaranteed a fair division of the difference between the two accounts.

Yes, if hers was significantly higher than his, therefore she would have owed him money, and there were no other assets from which to recoup that money....then it could be a huge problem that she spent it.

People are allowed to use assets to support themselves pending a finalization of a divorce. Basic support isn't dissipating assets. However, assets should not be used even for basic support unless they are disclosed, and unless there are other assets available to ensure that the other party still receives their fair share of the total assets.

Example: The marital assets are two retirement accounts and a house. One retirement account has 100k, the other has 50k and the house has 100k in equity. Each party is entitled to 125k in the end. The party with the 50k account uses their retirement account for basic support and to pay their attorney. (and the irs) That doesn't change the marital assets to 200k total instead of 250k. They remain at 250k. Therefore in the end, one party walks away with 75k, and the other walks away with 125k...because the first party already spent some of their share.

Alternate example: The marital assets are two cars of roughly the same value, a retirement account worth 15k, and some household furnishings. One of the parties spends the retirement account. HUGE problem. That person can expect to lose their car and their share of the household furnishings....and maybe STILL owe money to the other party.

PS: I know you know all of this better than me. I posted it for anyone else who may read this thread in the future.