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Abuse not love or discipline

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Ohiogal

Queen Bee
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? All

I am concerned with the news stories I am seeing lately.
The NFL has a problem -- Ray Rice and others (too many to name) and the latest is Adrian Peterson.

http://www.alternet.org/culture/nfls-adrian-peterson-admits-beating-4-year-old-son-likens-markings-those-he-gives-his-other

Pictures are in the above link. The NFL has a problem. But more importantly THIS COUNTRY has a problem. Comments on all the articles for Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson seem to be attempting to excuse these men from beating up women and children. There is NO EXCUSE for laying your hands on someone else.

The four year old WAS NOT DISCIPLINED. Not at all. That was abuse. Abuse which Adrian Peterson admits to perpetrating. He calls it discipline. His fans excuse it (well some of them do) with the idea that THEY were beat with switches and that makes it okay because they turned out fine. No, they didn't turn out fine when they can excuse a four year old being bloodied. The other reasoning is -- he is talented, he is a great player, he works with disabled children and people are just being MEAN wanting him punished. The Minnesota Vikings have called AP a "good man" -- there is nothing GOOD about what are in the pictures. Until people stop excusing this behavior, it will not stop.

Now, the latest high profile cases have been NFL players -- but that doesn't mean it is only them. That doesn't mean it is a problem with men, or black men or athletes. Because it isn't. Women abuse men, women abuse children. Poor abuse each other, rich abuse each other. In juvenile court, the majority -- VAST MAJORITY -- 95% of my clients -- are lower class. Why? Because they have the least ability to HIDE the abuse. The rich can hide it. They can hide beatings. They can hide blood. They can hide neglect a lot longer than poor counterparts. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen in rich enclaves. Just that the rich have more resources available them to protect themselves.

We need to start saying it is NOT acceptable. I encourage everyone to report abuse. I encourage everyone to educate yourselves. I encourage everyone to take a stand by telling your friends and family what happened to Adrian Peterson's four year old is NOT acceptable. What happened to Ray Rice's wife is NOT acceptable. While Ray Rice's wife is an adult, Adrian Peterson's son is not -- he is a baby. He is a child. He can't self protect. He was not disciplined. He was beaten until he bled. He was hit on the thighs, testicles, back, buttocks and had defensive wounds on his hands. His father's comments about it are ignorant and ridiculous. Just because YOU were spanked doesn't mean this is acceptable.

Please for the love of all, say NOT ACCEPTABLE -- say it loud and clear. The other thing I know out of this -- that child still loves his father. He always will. But LOVE should NOT hurt!

ETA: And another part of this: Do not fraudulently claim abuse in divorce/custody proceedings. That is also harmful. Not the point of this but it is also harmful. And yes, SOME PEOPLE DO THIS!
 
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Proserpina

Senior Member
What scares me more is the "quiet" abuse. The insidious and largely unprovable verbal and mental abuse. Damaged children very often become damaged adults, but without visible scars it becomes a confused ocean with no clear pinpoint.
 

Ladyback1

Senior Member
What scares me more is the "quiet" abuse. The insidious and largely unprovable verbal and mental abuse. Damaged children very often become damaged adults, but without visible scars it becomes a confused ocean with no clear pinpoint.
When my Ex husband went before the judge to try and get his domestic assault charge expunged, the judge said something that was very insightful:

The judge told me Ex that he (my Ex) had done more damage with the mental/psychological abuse, that he ever did with the physical abuse. The physical abuse heals much faster than the mental abuse. The judge told him, "Mr. Ex, I will not expunge your conviction. Your Ex-wife has to live with what you did to her for the rest of her life. And YOU are going to have to live with what you did to your family for the rest of your life as well."

The children that live with abusive adults, have a long and difficult path to adulthood--and if no one steps in, if no one speaks up, then that child feels alone, scared and probably angry. It's up to the adults in this world to protect the children. If we, as a society, don't start getting that part right? Our society is destined to fail miserably!
 

TigerD

Senior Member
I'm going to disagree slightly.

Ray Rice: If his wife attacked him in the room before getting on he elevator and she was coming at him again in the elevator (which we saw in the picture), then I have no problem with him knocking her out. I believe the term for that is self-defense. Now, I only know what I've seen and heard. None of us know more than that about what happened. As for this nonsense regarding never hit a woman -- either they are equal or they are not. Being an innie instead of an outie confers no special rights or benefits - if a woman is violent toward a man and he hits her back, suck it up snowflake. She earned it. If it was a guy that started physical violence with Ray Rice and then lunged at him in the elevator like his wife did, we all be saying the guy got what he deserved and lauding Rice for his one hit knockout.

Peterson - I don't know what happened and neither does anyone else commenting this. Did a spanking go too far? It happens. I'm sure this is more a matter of ex-spouses fighting than child abuse. Frankly, looking around at kids these days, I'm firmly convinced far too few parents issued enough spankings. And those little brats are the parents of the punks we see today. Pants hanging around their ankles and skirts short enough to identify pubic hair color on the bus and that doesn't even address the way many kids speak to their parents, elders, or authority figures.

DC
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
There is NO excuse, ever, for a man to hit a woman. There is also NO excuse, ever, for a woman to hit a man.

Or a man to hit a man. Or a woman to hit a woman.
 

Ladyback1

Senior Member
I'm going to disagree slightly.

Ray Rice: If his wife attacked him in the room before getting on he elevator and she was coming at him again in the elevator (which we saw in the picture), then I have no problem with him knocking her out. I believe the term for that is self-defense. Now, I only know what I've seen and heard. None of us know more than that about what happened. As for this nonsense regarding never hit a woman -- either they are equal or they are not. Being an innie instead of an outie confers no special rights or benefits - if a woman is violent toward a man and he hits her back, suck it up snowflake. She earned it. If it was a guy that started physical violence with Ray Rice and then lunged at him in the elevator like his wife did, we all be saying the guy got what he deserved and lauding Rice for his one hit knockout.

Peterson - I don't know what happened and neither does anyone else commenting this. Did a spanking go too far? It happens. I'm sure this is more a matter of ex-spouses fighting than child abuse. Frankly, looking around at kids these days, I'm firmly convinced far too few parents issued enough spankings. And those little brats are the parents of the punks we see today. Pants hanging around their ankles and skirts short enough to identify pubic hair color on the bus and that doesn't even address the way many kids speak to their parents, elders, or authority figures.

DC
If you watch the ENTIRE clip of the Ray Rice incident....before they got in the elevator, he SPIT on her. SPIT ON HER!!
Furthermore, Ray Rice is an athlete with significant physical strength. There is no way he should have hit her. NONE! He was free to walk away, he was free to leave--but before he knocked her out? HE SPIT ON HER.

As to the AP incident: Have you looked at the photos of the kid after the "discipline"? Oh yeah, the kid is FOUR YEARS OLD. There is no excuse for leaving those sort of marks on a 4 year old. NONE!:mad:
 

single317dad

Senior Member
But more importantly THIS COUNTRY has a problem. Comments on all the articles for Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson seem to be attempting to excuse these men from beating up women and children.
I think you're getting an inaccurate sample of public opinion. On most of the social news aggregator sites (e.g. reddit, digg) the opinion is vastly in favor of burning these guys at the stake. Where I see the opposite opinion mostly is on sites that use Facebook or Discus for article comments. Those sites are widely dismissed as completely ridiculous places because there's no comment voting system so either the first, most recent, or comments from the most active users (mostly trolls) are on top of the discussion. That's how you get completely universally stupid comments visible on articles on those sites. Other sites like reddit use a voting system that causes mostly quality content to rise to the top and most garbage to sink to the bottom.
 

I'mTheFather

Senior Member
If you watch the ENTIRE clip of the Ray Rice incident....before they got in the elevator, he SPIT on her. SPIT ON HER!!
Furthermore, Ray Rice is an athlete with significant physical strength. There is no way he should have hit her. NONE! He was free to walk away, he was free to leave--but before he knocked her out? HE SPIT ON HER.

As to the AP incident: Have you looked at the photos of the kid after the "discipline"? Oh yeah, the kid is FOUR YEARS OLD. There is no excuse for leaving those sort of marks on a 4 year old. NONE!:mad:
I agree with you.

Check the elevator video again. It sure looks like he spit on her two more times when they entered the elevator and they were both standing in the corner. And although she moved toward him, it doesn't look like she was trying to punch him, let alone land one. He could have easily just pushed her away.
 
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TigerD

Senior Member
There is NO excuse, ever, for a man to hit a woman. There is also NO excuse, ever, for a woman to hit a man.

Or a man to hit a man. Or a woman to hit a woman.
Yes, there is. Self defense.

You always have a right and excuse to defend yourself.

DC
 

TigerD

Senior Member
If you watch the ENTIRE clip of the Ray Rice incident....before they got in the elevator, he SPIT on her. SPIT ON HER!!
Furthermore, Ray Rice is an athlete with significant physical strength. There is no way he should have hit her. NONE! He was free to walk away, he was free to leave--but before he knocked her out? HE SPIT ON HER.
You might want to watch that video with your eyes open. Outside the elevator, is the first time on video we see her hit him. Then she throws an elbow in the elevator. Then she charges him. If it was a guy with a beer belly, you'd say he got he deserved.

As to the AP incident: Have you looked at the photos of the kid after the "discipline"? Oh yeah, the kid is FOUR YEARS OLD. There is no excuse for leaving those sort of marks on a 4 year old. NONE!:mad:[/QUOTE]
No. I haven't. And frankly, I'm not going to go search for them. We have a system for resolving these things that doesn't involve a public lynching. None of us know what happened. None of us. Neither do you know if those pictures are authentic and show what you think they show. You are making assumptions based on self-serving comments of parties and media reports. You simply don't have a factual base of knowledge to form those opinions.

DC
 

Ladyback1

Senior Member
You might want to watch that video with your eyes open. Outside the elevator, is the first time on video we see her hit him. Then she throws an elbow in the elevator. Then she charges him. If it was a guy with a beer belly, you'd say he got he deserved.

As to the AP incident: Have you looked at the photos of the kid after the "discipline"? Oh yeah, the kid is FOUR YEARS OLD. There is no excuse for leaving those sort of marks on a 4 year old. NONE!:mad:
No. I haven't. And frankly, I'm not going to go search for them. We have a system for resolving these things that doesn't involve a public lynching. None of us know what happened. None of us. Neither do you know if those pictures are authentic and show what you think they show. You are making assumptions based on self-serving comments of parties and media reports. You simply don't have a factual base of knowledge to form those opinions.

DC[/QUOTE]

You have a seriously different view of the world than I...HOWEVER, I watched the video of Mr and (now) Mrs. Rice--he spit on her, she swatted at him w/ an open hand; she walks on, he grabs her elbow and she jerks away; She does not "charge" at him in the elevator---even if she did? He is strong enough and big enough he very easily could have held her in a bear hug until the elevator stops.

as to AP: He admitted striking a 4 y/o with a switch (multiple times) to law enforcement/CPS--that in and of itself is enough to be considered abuse. No 4 y/o should be "disciplined" like that.
 

TigerD

Senior Member
HOWEVER, I watched the video of Mr and (now) Mrs. Rice--he spit on her, she swatted at him w/ an open hand; she walks on, he grabs her elbow and she jerks away; She does not "charge" at him in the elevator---even if she did? He is strong enough and big enough he very easily could have held her in a bear hug until the elevator stops.

as to AP: He admitted striking a 4 y/o with a switch (multiple times) to law enforcement/CPS--that in and of itself is enough to be considered abuse. No 4 y/o should be "disciplined" like that.
1. You are reading an awful lot into that video that isn't there.
2. Who are you to tell another parent how to discipline their child? I think it is wrong to feed a kid meat on Monday. So your doing so is abuse and we should throw you in jail. Very slippery slope you are embarking on.

DC
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
(I prayed that the Seahawks would lose and they did - obviously I'm now wearing flame-proof clothing lest the Legion of Gloom descends upon us)

If we're treating one gender differently based on no other reason than what's in their underoos, we're sending a confusing message. We want equality for most stuff but still expect special treatment for the stuff we don't like?

You've heard of women who kill their husbands because of prior abuse issues. A lot of these cases result in much lighter sentences. What if Rice's wife has made him a victim of abuse, and he simply lost it that one time?

Would we feel the same way?

We should, shouldn't we?

We just don't know the background. All we have is what the media feeds us and that's never the whole story.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
1. You are reading an awful lot into that video that isn't there.
2. Who are you to tell another parent how to discipline their child? I think it is wrong to feed a kid meat on Monday. So your doing so is abuse and we should throw you in jail. Very slippery slope you are embarking on.

DC
I agree with you but a line has to be drawn somewhere. There has to be a definition of what is discipline and what is abuse. I did read that the child actually had welts from the switch, so I think that's why CPS was involved in the first place.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
BOTH incidents are criminal, and BOTH should be prosecuted. At the very least, Peterson needs to be on probation and compelled to attend parenting classes. Ray Rice, on the other hand, thumping his obviously impaired fiance was uncalled for. He could have walked away and should have. Sorry, one can argue "self defense" all they wish, but, was he really at risk of harm from her at all? She was drunk! He could have grabbed her, he could have walked away before they got on the elevator, he could have done a great many things besides cold-co cked her. It takes a good, solid blow to KO someone. It doesn't happen with a casual smack/slap, it takes a solid blow in just the right place. Ray Rice should be prosecuted. But, as the victim (his wife) will obviously stand in his corner (she has a few million reasons to do so) prosecution may be difficult because she will likely leap on the grenade and support a claim of his defending himself against her if it comes to that.

The part of this that appalls me the most isn't the acts themselves, as I have been aware of this sort of thing and the aversion of eyes for a quarter of a century, but the attempt by some to try and separate Rice's actions from his being a player. They think he shouldn't be disciplined because it had nothing to do with football and it doesn't matter whether he's a thug off the field as long as he delivers the goods on the field. I saw these interviews with fans - even female fans - standing up for him and using the excuse that he's a good football player so we shouldn't hold his thuggish ways against him.

So long as we continue to dismiss any connection between character and the man (or woman), we will continue to get this sort of deviance. Its okay that someone lies, commits adultery, or is otherwise a snake, because he's a good Congressman/Senator/President (i.e. he supports my political worldview). It's okay that someone beat his child/wife/dog because he's a great ballplayer. I don't get it?!? Society has deteriorated to a point where we have created conditional morality. We except criminally deviant acts by marginalizing them - by creating a niche or excuse as to why they are acceptable in a particular context. Instead, we should be shunning the individual who commits such acts and express our dismay and outrage over the commission of such violent or immoral acts by those we might otherwise agree with.

We have created a society with so many shades of gray that I am not surprised that kids today lie, steal, and obfuscate more than preceding generations. As we have succeeded in erasing the concept or moral absolutes and a common ethical foundation for behavior, we have created a society of situational ethics where most anything can be acceptable if we frame it in the right context - whether said context is true or not. God forbid we feel guilt or shame!
 

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