GAL overstepping his role?

[GrandmaOH]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ohio

Background:
We've had custody of our 14 year old grandson for 9 years. This school year we put him in a new school that was more convenient for extra-curricular activities. He wanted this change. We had a deal, he'd do his homework without me nagging, denying privileges, etc., I'd get him to anything he wanted to do that fit in his schedule. He didn't keep his end of the deal and feared I'd put him back in his old school. He claimed 'mental abuse' because I yelled at him and he got CPS involved. They removed him based on GS claiming he'd kill himself if he stayed with us.

3 weeks after CPS took our GS I got my second visit with him. He had his phone, texted me he wanted his dress pants. I wanted proof he wasn't destroying a book I had given him(I had found out some 'accidents' were deliberate acts of destruction before CPS took him). He cursed me and demanded the pants. When I saw him I asked for an apology. He refused, and screamed that I had destroyed his trust and he never wanted to see me again. That was out of character for him and the tantrum landed him in the hospital where I later learned he met up with his girlfriend.

This is what the GAL has done:
The GAL proceeded to get a 'no visitation' order in place after GS said he never wanted to see me again. That was in place for 7 weeks, despite GS asking for visits after 4 weeks. GS was moved 3 times during those 7 weeks, finally ending up in a group home. Unfortunately, when visits were restored, GS started demanding money and implied he'd stop the visits if I didn't give him money. He received money at the home when he did his chores so I refused to give him money. He claimed I told him to kill himself and ended back in the hospital for the 7th time. GAL again put a 'no visitation' order in place. That was 3 months ago. He said he would remove it when GS's counselor said visits were in order. The problem is, that counselor was finally getting a clue about GS's manipulative behavior when CPS moved him again and caseworkers were changed 2 more times. The group home wanted him out due to his behavior. He has another counselor now, who has only heard GS's story, not us, and she is buying into his abuse claims. GS refuses to admit he's lied and I've heard he's not compliant with treatment. A psych eval was finally done and reveals his medications are not warranted.
GAL's 'no visit' order has kept CPS from doing anything on their reunification plan.

Bottom line, we are dealing with a kid with a personality disorder very much like his mother has, and no one has to remind me he is in a hole he has dug for himself. But CPS has not gotten him the treatment he needs and the GAL's 'no visit' orders have thwarted progress for reunification where we could get him the treatment he needs. Is it appropriate for the GAL to stop visits because a 14 year old throws a tantrum? I asked the GAL this, when we get visits again the 14 year old will likely demand money, what should I do? Do I give him money to ensure visits continue, or not give him money and he'll stop visits? Either way, his manipulative behavior will be rewarded. GAL said that wasn't his problem, I should ask my lawyer.

 

[Proserpina]

Please hang on - OhioGAL is an attorney and GAL and I have no doubt she'll have some guidance.

 

[GrandmaOH]

Please hang on - OhioGAL is an attorney and GAL and I have no doubt she'll have some guidance.

I'm hoping for her guidance. I'll have to log in tomorrow to see, it's past my bed time now.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Frankly it sounds like the child needs more medical care than you can give him and your visits seem to increase his attempts at manipulation. I would not expect reunification to be the end result here.

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ohio

Background:
We've had custody of our 14 year old grandson for 9 years. This school year we put him in a new school that was more convenient for extra-curricular activities. He wanted this change. We had a deal, he'd do his homework without me nagging, denying privileges, etc., I'd get him to anything he wanted to do that fit in his schedule. He didn't keep his end of the deal and feared I'd put him back in his old school. He claimed 'mental abuse' because I yelled at him and he got CPS involved. They removed him based on GS claiming he'd kill himself if he stayed with us.

3 weeks after CPS took our GS I got my second visit with him. He had his phone, texted me he wanted his dress pants. I wanted proof he wasn't destroying a book I had given him(I had found out some 'accidents' were deliberate acts of destruction before CPS took him). He cursed me and demanded the pants. When I saw him I asked for an apology. He refused, and screamed that I had destroyed his trust and he never wanted to see me again. That was out of character for him and the tantrum landed him in the hospital where I later learned he met up with his girlfriend.

This is what the GAL has done:
The GAL proceeded to get a 'no visitation' order in place after GS said he never wanted to see me again. That was in place for 7 weeks, despite GS asking for visits after 4 weeks. GS was moved 3 times during those 7 weeks, finally ending up in a group home. Unfortunately, when visits were restored, GS started demanding money and implied he'd stop the visits if I didn't give him money. He received money at the home when he did his chores so I refused to give him money. He claimed I told him to kill himself and ended back in the hospital for the 7th time. GAL again put a 'no visitation' order in place. That was 3 months ago. He said he would remove it when GS's counselor said visits were in order. The problem is, that counselor was finally getting a clue about GS's manipulative behavior when CPS moved him again and caseworkers were changed 2 more times. The group home wanted him out due to his behavior. He has another counselor now, who has only heard GS's story, not us, and she is buying into his abuse claims. GS refuses to admit he's lied and I've heard he's not compliant with treatment. A psych eval was finally done and reveals his medications are not warranted.
GAL's 'no visit' order has kept CPS from doing anything on their reunification plan.

Bottom line, we are dealing with a kid with a personality disorder very much like his mother has, and no one has to remind me he is in a hole he has dug for himself. But CPS has not gotten him the treatment he needs and the GAL's 'no visit' orders have thwarted progress for reunification where we could get him the treatment he needs. Is it appropriate for the GAL to stop visits because a 14 year old throws a tantrum? I asked the GAL this, when we get visits again the 14 year old will likely demand money, what should I do? Do I give him money to ensure visits continue, or not give him money and he'll stop visits? Either way, his manipulative behavior will be rewarded. GAL said that wasn't his problem, I should ask my lawyer.

GALs can make recommendations. They can't make changes. The court makes orders. Your lawyer should ask that the child be committed due to his threats to harm himself. The court can do that. Your lawyer should also present the case of what the child is doing. You can testify at a review hearing as to what is happening. Are the child's parents involved in this case? Were they served?

 

[GrandmaOH]

Ohiogal, both his parents were served. His mother does not want custody. His father, our son, would take custody but he currently(since December) lives with us so CPS won't give him custody. In December, at our first plea hearing, GS was in the hospital. GAL thought GS needed a longer term treatment. I agreed and researched plans. Cincinnati Childrens has a highly recommended residential & day program. I thought GAL was going to recommend GS come home and we would get him in there. GAL recommended GS not come home, and told us he was sure CPS would do the right thing and get him treatment. They did not. They put him in a group home for kids in trouble with the legal system. He was the only one without his own probation officer! GS was seeing a licensed counselor at school, which he lost when they moved him to a new school.



And for OHRoadwarrior: GS first went to the hospital in our care after speaking to a caseworker. Hospital released him to our care, they are mandated reporters and would not have done that had they thought he was in danger in our care. I had a psychologist lined up before the boy came home. CPS got him to the first app't then cancelled the rest. It took CPS 2.5 months to get him to a repeat app't with any counselor. Due to them moving him, he's had two 'long term counselors', each 7-8 weeks. We are fully capable of providing what he needs, emotionally, physically, mentally, and financially.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

In your opinion. How many of his current doctors have voiced that opinion?

 

[Ladyback1]

We are fully capable of providing what he needs, emotionally, physically, mentally, and financially.

Not to be mean, but....obviously you are not fully capable of providing what he needs emotionally and mentally.

Your average 14 y/o child does not think to get CPS involved. You're average 14 y/o child does not threaten suicide if forced to live with his caretakers/parents/grandparents. You're average 14 y/o, while being slightly manipulative, does not manipulate like you have described.

Was this young man in counseling prior to all of this? If no, why not?


If you KNEW that the child had a personality disorder, did you know the signs/symptoms that he was deteriorating mentally? What I mean is, did you research personality disorders, and have a base of knowledge to figure out that the young man was struggling?
(My ex-husband is BiPolar. You can bet your sweet behind I have researched the diagnosis, and know what to be watching for with my two teenage boys!)

And, what medications, specifically are not warranted? Who said they weren't warranted?

 

[GrandmaOH]

He was seeing a licensed counselor who travels to the school. She never saw the suicide threats coming. If she had, she would have let us know there were bigger problems that we knew of then. The school guidance counselor recommended him see that licensed counselor because he was complaining to her about he was sad, we were too hard on him, etc. She told him she did the same thing we were doing, 11pm curfew on weekend parties, chores to do, homework to do, responsibilities done before getting to play. He had been lying about doing his schoolwork and knew he was going to be grounded completely. He complained to CPS that we were yelling at him, I admit I yelled at him and told him he wouldn't be driving until he was 18 if he continued being careless with valuable possessions.

Please note, this is a kid who entered 9th grade with 2 high school credits, in algebra & Spanish. He enjoyed school and seldom missed any days. He was a Boy Scout who just needed his review to complete his Eagle Rank. He was a high achiever in 4H, and got to go on a trip to DC for the inauguration in 2013. He is a talented musician, playing in our church and duets with a friend of mine at his church as well as receiving top scores in competitions. He participated in many extracurricular activities over the years.

The recommendations of the doctor who did the psych evaluation were that he needed to get back to a psychiatrist for med evaluations. The GAL had told me 'additional disclosures' had been made since CPS took him. Since the ones he made at first were lies, I was concerned what else he said. Everything he had said about us to the GAL & CPS were things he had told me happened to his girlfriend. Anyway, one of the 'additional disclosures' was revealed in the psych eval, he said I once made him sit at the table until 1 or 2 a.m. until he ate his vegetables. 1st, that's not true, but if it was, is that really abusive enough for CPS to take him?

Ladyback, this is not an average 14 year old. He never threatened suicide with us. He did go to the hospital while in our care but it was after he spoke to the first caseworker. He freely admitted 2 days after that, that the caseworker coached him on what to say. After they took him, he's had multiple emergency room visits & at least 7 short stays of 3-7 days. At the group home he learned that an emergency room run got him out of chores and got a lot of attention. He never went to school from Nov 25 through Jan 8th. He's failing all but 3 classes, but doesn't have enough time in those to receive credit. To me, all this shows that he has severely deteriorated in CPS care. They refuse to get him into a residential mental health care facility.

Please also note, CPS intervened and cancelled the psychologist we had, then neglected to get him other counseling for 2.5 months--not even a counselor in school.

His lying escalated the last 6 weeks in our care, hindsight being 20/20 we probably should have gotten him to the psychologist 2 weeks before CPS got involved. We're talking 2 WEEKS! He never hurt anyone, except himself with the lies. He's never been violent. He never tried suicide until 5 weeks AFTER CPS took him.

This has wandered away from the topic of whether the GAL was acting appropriately in interfering with CPS stated goal of reunification.

 

[Proserpina]

Your average 14 y/o child does not think to get CPS involved. You're average 14 y/o child does not threaten suicide if forced to live with his caretakers/parents/grandparents. You're average 14 y/o, while being slightly manipulative, does not manipulate like you have described.

If this was perhaps 20 years ago, I'd probably agree with what you said here. But today? It wouldn't surprise me at all to find studies discussing how teen angst and manipulation is on the rise drastically. Take a mid-teen, ground him as punishment, and unfortunately you run the risk of 14 year old Jimmy complaining to his friends and all of a sudden BAM. Someone has the bright idea that CPS can get him outta there!

And before the inevitable flaming even gets started, I do acknowledge that teen suicide is massive problem. Ultimately a professional should be the person deciding on the teen's mental state and we cannot go ahead and say "Nope, you're just being an idiot" over "we have a problem, let's get him help.

I'm just not convinced that average teens today don't know how to play certain cards if the situation is not to their liking. Many do. Frequently. And they do it well.

 

[Ohiogal]

If this was perhaps 20 years ago, I'd probably agree with what you said here. But today? It wouldn't surprise me at all to find studies discussing how teen angst and manipulation is on the rise drastically. Take a mid-teen, ground him as punishment, and unfortunately you run the risk of 14 year old Jimmy complaining to his friends and all of a sudden BAM. Someone has the bright idea that CPS can get him outta there!

And before the inevitable flaming even gets started, I do acknowledge that teen suicide is massive problem. Ultimately a professional should be the person deciding on the teen's mental state and we cannot go ahead and say "Nope, you're just being an idiot" over "we have a problem, let's get him help.

I'm just not convinced that average teens today don't know how to play certain cards if the situation is not to their liking. Many do. Frequently. And they do it well.

I have had a couple cases where a teenager has said things like, "If I have to stay with them, I will kill myself." An emergency hearing was held and when the court asked for my recommendations, as GAL, I stated that if a child was threatening harm to himself, I would have him put on a 72 hour psychiatric hold. The court immediately committed the child to the psych ward and, since I first recommended it, the judge has done it each and every time a teenager has threatened it. In each instance that this has happened in that court, the child recanted during the 72 hour time and stated he didn't really mean it. Teens think they can get the upper hand and get what they want by involving CSB/CPS or making such threats. The problem with Cincinnati -- I believe it is Cincinnati -- is that they have issues with one of their prominent juvenile judges.

Here is more information:
http://judgepedia.org/Tracie_Hunter
http://www.fox19.com/story/25181505/fox19-investigates-judge-tracie-hunter-seeks-change-of-venue
http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/tracie-hunter-cincinnati-judges-trial-expected-to-be-set

There is more information regarding this judge available but if the judge behaves poorly, that could extend to those who she surrounds herself with in her court. She has had several "town hall meetings" where she has broadcast that she is a Judge for Jesus and will bring God to the Court and he is telling her what to do. Which violates the Constitution.

 

[Pinkie39]

If this was perhaps 20 years ago, I'd probably agree with what you said here. But today? It wouldn't surprise me acunningl to find studies discussing how teen angst and manipulation is on the rise drastically. Take a mid-teen, ground him as punishment, and unfortunately you run the risk of 14 year old Jimmy complaining to his friends and all of a sudden BAM. Someone has the bright idea that CPS can get him outta there!

And before the inevitable flaming even gets started, I do acknowledge that teen suicide is massive problem. Ultimately a professional should be the person deciding on the teen's mental state and we cannot go ahead and say "Nope, you're just being an idiot" over "we have a problem, let's get him help.

I'm just not convinced that average teens today don't know how to play certain cards if the situation is not to their liking. Many do. Frequently. And they do it well.

I do agree with this. I have a 16 year old female relative (not my child, by the way) who is very bright, pretty, popular, athletic, etc, but is incredibly manipulative and knows how to "work" adults, to get what she wants. She's made false accusations against teachers and school personnel, when they've tried to discipline her at school, or wouldn't give her grades she felt she deserves.

She's also pulled the "suicidal" card, or faked illnesses, for attention at school, and to get out of responsibilities at home. When I read the OPs post, I instantly thought of this girl. I can believe what the OP is saying.

 

[GrandmaOH]

I do agree with this. I have a 16 year old female relative (not my child, by the way) who is very bright, pretty, popular, athletic, etc, but is incredibly manipulative and knows how to "work" adults, to get what she wants. She's made false accusations against teachers and school personnel, when they've tried to discipline her at school, or wouldn't give her grades she felt she deserves.

She's also pulled the "suicidal" card, or faked illnesses, for attention at school, and to get out of responsibilities at home. When I read the OPs post, I instantly thought of this girl. I can believe what the OP is saying.

You and Proserpina have him pegged. OhioGal was right, too, he also said if he had to stay with us he'd kill himself. Yes, he changed his story during his first hospitalization but the caseworker took him the day after he got out of the hospital and she never talked to anyone at the hospital.

He found a nice library at one of the hospitals with psychology books that gave great descriptions of different psychiatric disorders, he spent a lot of time reading at that hospital. It took more than 4 hospitalizations while in foster care for the psychiatrist to realize they were dealing with something more than a depressed, abused kid. Unfortunately, I've never been allowed to speak to any of his doctors or counselors after CPS took him, so they only have GS's word about what was going on. Plus, he's been moved multiple times so he keeps getting new doctors & counselors. No one even got his history of his mother leaving when he was 19 months, his dad remarrying twice with the 2nd one getting a felony child abuse conviction due to beating him, until I got that information to the doctor doing the psych eval, but even they didn't talk to me. Yes, he's had it crappy, but he alone is responsible for damaging his relationships with peers. His manipulative behavior does not go over well with other kids. They aren't very forgiving when a kid lies about other kids.

 

[GrandmaOH]

In your opinion. How many of his current doctors have voiced that opinion?

We've not been allowed to speak to his current doctors. His family doctor, our minister & his wife(one phd, the other a licensed counselor), and the psychologist who did our psychological evaluations all say he should be returned to us. They all say we are fully capable and have been the only stablizing influence in his life.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

We've not been allowed to speak to his current doctors. His family doctor, our minister & his wife(one phd, the other a licensed counselor), and the psychologist who did our psychological evaluations all say he should be returned to us. They all say we are fully capable and have been the only stablizing influence in his life.

Then you have nothing. What your doctor says about you does not apply to him. A GP is not qualified to make the decision.