NOT DV but clumsiness -- seriously!

[stealth2]

Everyone stop typing - I think my eyes just rolled outta my head... Give me a few to find them.

 

[davew128]

I have said before; there is less chance of being prosecuted for beating the daylights out of a guy at a bar than stopping my wife from running out of the house when she is pissed and I think her driving in that condition would be a really bad idea.

I've been told pretty much that exact same thing by SDPD. The city attorney would likely toss any case from a bar fight, a DV will at least get looked at before a case filing decision is made.

 

[CdwJava]

I suspect a defendant may not be too upset about having an abuser sitting in judgment. The victim on the other hand...

In a civil hearing for a TRO either party could likely object. In a criminal prosecution, the DA might object.

 

[CdwJava]

I've been told pretty much that exact same thing by SDPD. The city attorney would likely toss any case from a bar fight, a DV will at least get looked at before a case filing decision is made.

A bar fight is, of course, not even close to the same thing. As my former DA once wrote in his rejection of a bar fight complaint request: No charges. Drunks doing what drunks do."

And San Diego County has been a state and national leader in DV prevention and the response to DV related criminal acts. They have (or at least had) a dedicated prosecution unit that dealt with these events and coordinated resources to assist the families involved. Contrary to common vitriol, there are resources available for the entire family - including the offender. However, the offender typically denies having a problem or doing anything wrong and will often choose not to avail themselves of services which can then lead to additional penalties including intervention by CPS if there are children involved.

No, the system is not perfect - but no part of it is. But, family violence is insidious and the state does have a vested interest in intervening to stop it. And, unfortunately, it appears that at least in my state victims that recant or refuse to cooperate are having a greater impact on filing decisions by prosecutors as fewer resources tend to prevent them from moving forward in spite of a victim's recalcitrance. I have seen fewer DV batteries filed over the past few years than ever before as a result. Sad ... especially since I'm seeing more DV incidents. The overall stats, I don't know off hand, but it is no surprise that fewer resources will equate to fewer prosecutions. It also means more victims and families remaining in abusive situations. Sad.

 

[justalayman]

CdwJava;3310677]A bar fight is, of course, not even close to the same thing. As my former DA once wrote in his rejection of a bar fight complaint request: No charges. Drunks doing what drunks do."

what do you mean it isn't even close? Other than the domestic part, it is the exact same thing; violence.

one could use your same argument, adjusted for a couple of course:

no charges; couples arguing. He said she was fat, she slapped him.

what is the difference?

And San Diego County has been a state and national leader in DV prevention and the response to DV related criminal acts. They have (or at least had) a dedicated prosecution unit that dealt with these events and coordinated resources to assist the families involved. Contrary to common vitriol, there are resources available for the entire family - including the offender. However, the offender typically denies having a problem or doing anything wrong and will often choose not to avail themselves of services which can then lead to additional penalties including intervention by CPS if there are children involved.

maybe in your county and while it may be stated there are services available to parties in other areas, the realistic view; not really. In my area, offenders are generally required to attend domestic violence classes. That's great but in the meantime, the relationship dies because the parties cannot see each other for 4-6-12 months. That means maintaining 2 households, people who are in desperate need of support so they are susceptible to influence by outside parties which too many times results in affairs. I can go on but I don't think it would make a lick of difference in your mind.

there is counseling offered to the other party but it generally consists of how to escape if there is a problem and how to be prepared for a problem. Not really anything useful in putting their lives back together.

But, family violence is insidious and the state does have a vested interest in intervening to stop it. And, unfortunately, it appears that at least in my state victims that recant or refuse to cooperate are having a greater impact on filing decisions by prosecutors as fewer resources tend to prevent them from moving forward in spite of a victim's recalcitrance. I have seen fewer DV batteries filed over the past few years than ever before as a result. Sad ... especially since I'm seeing more DV incidents. The overall stats, I don't know off hand, but it is no surprise that fewer resources will equate to fewer prosecutions. It also means more victims and families remaining in abusive situations. Sad

it's sad that what is seen as DV in my area is often a heated squabble with no intent to be violent. A husband restraining his wife from leaving the room, even momentarily has resulted in charges. A man whose wife is so close to his face that one could lick the other pushes her back; that has been prosecuted as DV.

A guy who called the police and plead they come save him because he realized the argument was turning ugly. She wouldn't let him walk out of the home. They laughed, that is until she called and said he shoved her. Ya he shoved her because she attacked him and he made a dash for the door, pushing her out of his way in the process. Do I really need to tell you who was charged, and convicted (well, it was a plea bargain but in reality, plea bargains are problems in themselves)?

Did you hear about the guy that was convicted of DV for yelling at his wife? He hurt the family animal (not sure but I think he kicked the dog) and had yelled at the wife. The plea bargain; plead guilty to DV and we'll drop the animal cruelty charge. What DV? It didn't matter.

or the one where the couple was driving down the road. She got angry over something and grabbed the steering wheel. He backhanded her to get her to stop trying to kill them by causing an accident. Last I heard they have been apart for over 6 months due to HIS conviction of DV.

 

[CdwJava]

what do you mean it isn't even close? Other than the domestic part, it is the exact same thing; violence.

Aside from the battery, it's NOT close. Not at all. The domestic aspect lends a whole 'nother psychological aspect to the offense. In a domestic incident you have psychological, social, and economic influences in play. Not so in a bar fight. Certainly you can see that!

no charges; couples arguing. He said she was fat, she slapped him.

what is the difference?

If in a bar, simple battery. If in a domestic relationship, DV. And the DA still has discretion on filing in either case.

maybe in your county and while it may be stated there are services available to parties in other areas, the realistic view; not really. In my area, offenders are generally required to attend domestic violence classes.

And a good many STOP attending those classes. Oh, they offer the usual excuses - no transportation, I had to work, I wasn't feeling well, etc. But, a pattern develops and very often they re-offend.

That's great but in the meantime, the relationship dies because the parties cannot see each other for 4-6-12 months. That means maintaining 2 households, people who are in desperate need of support so they are susceptible to influence by outside parties which too many times results in affairs. I can go on but I don't think it would make a lick of difference in your mind.

Yeah, it makes a difference. But, I can't speak for YOUR state, but in mine a no contact order for a typical DV is not likely. PEACEFUL contact is usually what is ordered. This can be troubling because the order places all the cards in the hand of the victim because all she has to do is say that they argued, and he can go to jail. But, the point is, that if they want to stay together, in most cases, they can. And even if a NO CONTACT order is put in place initially, unless the offense was particularly violent or a repeat offense, the order will likely be converted to PEACEFUL contact.

Oh, and if you are asking if I'd rather a couple have some hardships as opposed to her becoming a punching bag and regular victim, and the children getting caught in the middle? Yeah, I'd rather they have the financial hardship ... hospital bil;ls can be just as difficult - as can funeral costs.

there is counseling offered to the other party but it generally consists of how to escape if there is a problem and how to be prepared for a problem. Not really anything useful in putting their lives back together.

That depends on the counseling. Yes, the victim often gets counseling that tries to encourage her to think for herself and become independent. The psychological dynamic in many DV incidents is such that the victim is incapable of thinking of themselves and think only of how they can please their abuser or mitigate his discomfort. It's that mindset that must be overcome.

it's sad that what is seen as DV in my area is often a heated squabble with no intent to be violent. A husband restraining his wife from leaving the room, even momentarily has resulted in charges. A man whose wife is so close to his face that one could lick the other pushes her back; that has been prosecuted as DV.

Yes, that can happen. It can also happen between strangers - don't let them pass, it's false imprisonment (out here), push someone it's battery. Those are crimes even if they were not domestic violence incidents. Never block someone's path if they are trying to get past, and don't push them.

A guy who called the police and plead they come save him because he realized the argument was turning ugly. She wouldn't let him walk out of the home. They laughed, that is until she called and said he shoved her. Ya he shoved her because she attacked him and he made a dash for the door, pushing her out of his way in the process. Do I really need to tell you who was charged, and convicted (well, it was a plea bargain but in reality, plea bargains are problems in themselves)?

Yeah, peculiar things happen ... though, it might also be that you were not privy to the same fact set that the police and the prosecutor were.

Did you hear about the guy that was convicted of DV for yelling at his wife? He hurt the family animal (not sure but I think he kicked the dog) and had yelled at the wife. The plea bargain; plead guilty to DV and we'll drop the animal cruelty charge. What DV? It didn't matter.

Didn't hear of it.

Of course, I can use Google to find strange criminal justice tricks all night, too. The exceptional gets attention - the routine does not.

or the one where the couple was driving down the road. She got angry over something and grabbed the steering wheel. He backhanded her to get her to stop trying to kill them by causing an accident. Last I heard they have been apart for over 6 months due to HIS conviction of DV.

I heard about that one or one like it ... apparently her version of events was not the same as his.

 

[RRevak]

I get what Just is trying to say. I have a married couple friend that became involved in an incident last year. They were involved in a heated argument that ended up with the husband pushing the wife back because she was trying to slap him. She didn't get a chance to lay a hand on him but unfortunately for him, he got a hand on her....while she was 5 months pregnant. Their yelling was apparently loud enough for a close living neighbor to hear who then called law enforcement. Cops arrived, determined the husband pushed the pregnant wife to avoid being struck himself, and guess what the result was? Husband was immediately arrested, slapped with 2 felonies, told he couldn't have contact or move back into the home until he got out of jail and completed DV "therapy" (some course on DV, I can't remember exactly) and their children spent 2 weeks in CPS custody because when they arrived (cops called them due to the children being present) they decided the home was "dirty" and the wife was enabling her abusive husband because she was crying and pleading that the cops not take her husband away. There was absolutely NO history of violence, NO history of domestic reports, NO criminal background on either of their parts, and she even insisted that it was an altercation that was nowhere near as violent as the COPS were trying to say it was (the cops who were NOT present for any of the fight). So fast forward...he was able to plead down some of his charges but he still has the felony on his record for pushing his pregnant wife, they now are in the system for CPS, the legal bills crippled them for a while as did the household bills while he was in jail (he also lost his job), and the children are terrified of police because they took them and their father away in a very dramatic manner.

So yeah, as Just says there are times where the blanket DV laws seriously and colossally fail families.

 

[Ladyback1]

I get what Just is trying to say. I have a married couple friend that became involved in an incident last year. They were involved in a heated argument that ended up with the husband pushing the wife back because she was trying to slap him. She didn't get a chance to lay a hand on him but unfortunately for him, he got a hand on her....while she was 5 months pregnant. Their yelling was apparently loud enough for a close living neighbor to hear who then called law enforcement. Cops arrived, determined the husband pushed the pregnant wife to avoid being struck himself, and guess what the result was? Husband was immediately arrested, slapped with 2 felonies, told he couldn't have contact or move back into the home until he got out of jail and completed DV "therapy" (some course on DV, I can't remember exactly) and their children spent 2 weeks in CPS custody because when they arrived (cops called them due to the children being present) they decided the home was "dirty" and the wife was enabling her abusive husband because she was crying and pleading that the cops not take her husband away. There was absolutely NO history of violence, NO history of domestic reports, NO criminal background on either of their parts, and she even insisted that it was an altercation that was nowhere near as violent as the COPS were trying to say it was (the cops who were NOT present for any of the fight). So fast forward...he was able to plead down some of his charges but he still has the felony on his record for pushing his pregnant wife, they now are in the system for CPS, the legal bills crippled them for a while as did the household bills while he was in jail (he also lost his job), and the children are terrified of police because they took them and their father away in a very dramatic manner.

So yeah, as Just says there are times where the blanket DV laws seriously and colossally fail families.

This is where so many police officers/law enforcement agencies fall down on their job. They are suppose to charge/arrest the primary aggressor. The wife in this WAS the primary aggressor and should have been arrested. But....because she was pregnant (and obviously a female) the cops were "blinded" by their mistaken impression that the woman was helpless---and few cops want to put a pregnant woman in jail.

However: If it hadn't been for the cops that showed up when a neighbor (thank God for nosey neighbors) heard my then husband say he was going to kill me....I'd probably still be married to him. Those cops were the kindest and most caring---and told me I didn't deserve all of what I had been living with (re: husband at the time) Oh the shame and humiliation of having someone you know, trust and respect looking at you with pity, sadness and horror in their eyes (I had worked as a 911 dispatcher. Responding officers were ones I had worked with). And it still took me a couple of years to get my self together, grow a backbone, and file for divorce. (Oh, and before anyone thinks that my relationship w/ the officers was why the Ex was arrested. The Ex pinned me to the wall w/ his forearm across my collarbones, screaming and yelling all sorts of vileness, and took the phone from me and threw across the room so I couldn't call for help.)

 

[single317dad]

This is where so many police officers/law enforcement agencies fall down on their job. They are suppose to charge/arrest the primary aggressor.

Here, they're supposed to arrest all aggressors. That means if I've been beating my wife and she stabs me, we both go to jail. If my wife has been beating me and I push her aside as I run out the door, we both go to jail. If a child 16 or under sees, hears, or can be proven reasonably to be aware of, our argument, then we're facing felony charges.

Think about that. A potential felony conviction, and all the baggage that goes along with that, because you "beat your spouse in front of your children". And to bring that back to the topic of this thread, that's exactly what the medical personnel are fishing for. All it takes is one wrong word from the patient and those wheels are set in motion.

 

[single317dad]

I suspect rape counseling may be beneficial for you. There are a lot of similarities between a rape victim and you being a victim of the system (yes, the system rather than the other party).

I actually went in to the (court ordered) DV counseling with a poor attitude. I wasn't a wife-beater, so this weekly class wasn't going to be of any use to me at all. However, during my 44 Monday evenings, I listened to what the man had to say, and what the class was saying. We were all there for one reason: because we stayed in bad relationships. Some of us had hit our wives and girlfriends; some had been abused; but all of us were in the same boat now. That class was the best attitude-changer it could have been for me. I stopped being angry at the system (while keeping the realistic view that it would chew me up and spit me out again if I let it), and learned how to avoid a repeat.