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?s re upcoming permanent r.o. hearing

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fledging

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

In brief, my husband obtained a temporary restraining order against his brother with the hearing in mid-October.

The background: the respondent has a long (over 30 years) history of mental illness. He was living (without paying rent nor utilities) in their parents house while working on his latest college degree. Their mother put the deed in the name of the family trust under my husband's name before she passed away. Since then, my husband has allowed him to reside there (we live about ten miles away). Last year he had started an eviction order against him due to some damage done to the house, but the brother finally took care of it and my husband stopped the order.

Last month, my husband went to the house to do the maintenance (gardening, checking on the condition of the house, etc) that he usually has been doing on a weekly basis. His brother admitted he had lost his job (a part time job teaching). A short time later, my husband was trying to finish up and his brother jumped him, shoving him in the chest, cursing at him. My brother finally was able to take control of him (he weighs a lot less but is in healthy shape, as opposed to his brother). He finally was able to grab his lunch box (after retrieving the contents after the brother threw it in a continuance of his fit of rage) and drove home. He had a bruise on his chest and had skimmed knuckles from being knocked on the concrete.

He started another eviction notice (the 30 days will be up later this week). The brother has since sent two emails -- one saying that he wants my husband to talk to his therapist, and the second one just last weekend was entitled "This isn't over" and saying that it's my husband who is in the wrong (and certainly no apologies for what he did or even to acknowledge that my brother has provided room and board ever since their mother's passing).

He was concerned about his brother's lack of impulse control so we went to court and file for the restraining order. The judge granted the temporary one without even meeting with my husband. We paid a process server to take care of the service (instead of waiting on the sheriff's office, which the clerk said might not happen until the week of the hearing).

We do have many questions.

We would like to obtain his police record. He has gotten into trouble for deliberately hitting a woman's car (my brother knows he had to perform community service as a result -- cleaning up the sides of freeways), and he had hit a motorcyclist on a freeway and then took off. Fortunately another driver witnessed it and drove after him, and he was detained by the police. We don't know the upshot of that, but we're guessing he somehow got the services of one of those "we'll fight your DUI,etc." firms to plea down the charges.

And the most egregious: About 12 years ago, he jumped on top of his mother, held her down and started punching her. She had to go to the ER and somehow the police got involved. He was put in a halfway house on a 5150 hold. Unfortunately his father had been enabling his behavior for years and was probably thinking he'll lose his son to suicide if he didn't allow him back into the house, so he did (against the wishes of his wife). He passed away within a year or two of that incident. We don't know if police charges were actually brought against my brother-in-law. But I would imagine this would be on the record that they responded.

Also, when I was nine months pregnant, 18 years ago, the brother was in the house (at that time, he didn't have his own Internet at his parents' house so he would use our computer) and got mouthy with my husband. My husband told him to leave, but he refused to and even threatened him. When my husband called the police, he left right away.

I will be writing "witness statements" about that last incident, about my mother-in-law's injuries (she took off her shirt and the bruises covered from the bottom of her collarbone to her belly button -- it was that bad), and about his injuries (the bruise wasn't that big -- he's guessing his brother was trying not to leave any signs of the attack; I had suggested at that time, that I take a photo of his chest and his hands, but he decided against that but is now regretting).

If we were able to get the police records of his arrests and any other police reports, it would be a slam dunk for getting the permanent r.o. This is public info. There are those sites that you can pay to obtain these record, but my husband doesn't feel he can trust them. Most likely he can hire a lawyer to get a subpoena, but he had been burned twice before with lawyers in a workers comp case and a civil case (the first lawyer had violated the state bar ethics code and the second was churning his account). Considering the police record should be public knowledge, would we be able to go in person and sign a form and be able to obtain at least the records for our county (he lived for a brief time in another county -- one of the above incidents occurred there) to add to the case? Somewhere I read that you can go to the county clerk, but when I tried looking up on the county website, I seemed to run into a dead end or just not be able to figure out where the info is.

Thanks in advance for reading this. I know it's long.
 


adjusterjack

Senior Member
Too long. I didn't read it except for the last paragraph.

Bottom line: if your husband doesn't want to use pay sites for the records and he doesn't want to hire a lawyer to get the records then he takes his chances and goes to hearing without them.

It's that simple.
 

quincy

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

In brief, my husband obtained a temporary restraining order against his brother with the hearing in mid-October ...

... He was concerned about his brother's lack of impulse control so we went to court and file for the restraining order. The judge granted the temporary one without even meeting with my husband. We paid a process server to take care of the service (instead of waiting on the sheriff's office, which the clerk said might not happen until the week of the hearing) ...

... We would like to obtain his police record. ...

... I will be writing "witness statements" about that last incident, about my mother-in-law's injuries (she took off her shirt and the bruises covered from the bottom of her collarbone to her belly button -- it was that bad), and about his injuries (the bruise wasn't that big -- he's guessing his brother was trying not to leave any signs of the attack; I had suggested at that time, that I take a photo of his chest and his hands, but he decided against that but is now regretting). ...
Your husband needs to go to the agency that holds the record for the particular incident or incidents he is interested in obtaining and file an FOI request with that agency. Some agencies have forms that you can fill out and others will accept any written request that is specific enough for the agency to be able to identify and locate the record. Some records may have personal identifying information redacted and, therefore, they may be of limited use, and some records (like mental health records) are exempt from disclosure.

Your husband should first call the agency or agencies to make sure the record he wants is held by that agency before filing a request. Your husband will want the correct dates for the records ("12 year ago" is not good enough).

There will be a fee charged by the agency for making copies of the records. Your husband should include with his request a limit to the amount he wishes to spend on the copies (e.g., $100) so that he does not find himself stuck with having to pay the agency $1000 in copying fees.

Please note that what happened between your husband's brother and anyone else (the mother-in-law, the dead mom, the dead dad, the car accident victims) will have little to no relevance on any restraining order your husband wishes to have issued against his brother, unless these individuals live with you and should be included in the order for that reason. It will be the provable incidents involving your husband (and you) and the brother that will matter.

You could find a legal aid clinic in your area can be of assistance to you if you do not wish to hire an attorney to help.

Here is a link to California's Public Records Act: http://www.thefirstamendment.org/publicrecordsact.pdf
 
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CdwJava

Senior Member
CA state criminal offender records will be unavailable for public consumption. However, if you know what courts he had actions in, you can obtain at least court records of those cases from those courthouses. Cases are not confidential, but criminal offender records are. Even those sites that you pay for records searches on cannot obtain CORI files, only the public documents that you can also get by just going to the courthouse or even checking online at the respective courthouses.

And you'll never get any mental health records for this.

Police reports may be a mixed bag. Not only might they withhold these records from you as "investigative files" forcing you to go to court to order their release (not even knowing if they contain anything useful) you may be compelled to pay for the cost of the record. And, depending on how old the record is, it may no longer exist (and the odds of records over 7 years being available is slim, unless he is still in litigation, in prison, the SOL has not passed to charge him, or pending appeal - 12 and 18 year old records are probably gone).

Keep in mind that even if you possess a couple of police reports that may be many years old and a printout of his previous court actions, they may do nothing to show that he deserves to be the subject of a CHO right now. Those records might show that someone ELSE deserved to receive an order protecting them from him some years ago, but your husband's case will be decided on the merits of his claims of threats of harm, not someone else's.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
I do not recommend going the record-search-company route. They charge for what you can generally do easily on your own.

If you are unsure if a record will be of any help, you can review the record at the agency for free. It will be the copying of the records for which you will be charged.

It is also important to note that it can take time to locate records, especially if you are unsure of the specific dates of an incident. Some records, therefore, may not be available in time for the hearing on the restraining order. Although agencies are given 10 days to produce requested documents, this 10 day limit can be extended.

The link I provided should answer any additional questions you might have. It sounds as if your brother-in-law has created a lot of trouble for his family.
 

fledging

Junior Member
Thanks for the last few replies. I'll check out that link. I was concerned about not having exact dates for those incidents. And it could be that my mother-in-law has some papers regarding the attack on her still in the house in her files that would still be there. But unaccessible to us unless the property inspector we plan to send in (after the eviction deadline is up) can verify he has moved out (which we're doubting he'll do unless dragged out).

We don't need the mental health records. That's under HIPPA anyway.
 

fledging

Junior Member
My next question concerns the hearing. From what I understand, if the respondent doesn't show up to the hearing, the judge may grant the permanent restraining order. If that happens, it would be up to my husband to serve the paperwork to his brother. If the brother did manage to leave the residence he is being evicted from by that time, we won't know where he is to serve him the paperwork. So does that mean he can claim (assuming he acts up after that toward us and the police come) he didn't know? Or does the court put it on him that he should have checked on what the outcome was (since he was served with the hearing notice papers)?
 

quincy

Senior Member
My next question concerns the hearing. From what I understand, if the respondent doesn't show up to the hearing, the judge may grant the permanent restraining order. If that happens, it would be up to my husband to serve the paperwork to his brother. If the brother did manage to leave the residence he is being evicted from by that time, we won't know where he is to serve him the paperwork. So does that mean he can claim (assuming he acts up after that toward us and the police come) he didn't know? Or does the court put it on him that he should have checked on what the outcome was (since he was served with the hearing notice papers)?
Your brother-in-law must be served prior to the hearing. If he has not been served (for whatever reason), your husband can request an extension to the temporary restraining order.

The process server will have evidence of service on your brother-in-law.

Yes, your brother-in-law can claim he didn't know anything about the hearing or the order. Your brother-in-law can claim whatever he wants to claim ... not that unmerited claims will get him very far in court.

Here is a link to some California self-help on protection orders: http://www.courts.ca.gov/1264.htm

If your husband is having difficulty with all of this, there are free legal aid clinics sprinkled throughout California that could provide assistance.

Good luck.
 
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fledging

Junior Member
Yes, he has been served with the notice for the hearing and the temporary restraining order. We have the time-stamped copies from the process server that shows he has been served and that the proof has been filed with the court clerk.

I was wondering about the possibility that he doesn't show up for the hearing. It could be possible that he will wait until he's dragged kicking and screaming by the marshal out of the house (which may be after the hearing date), but if he just leaves before that, we won't know where he is to serve the permanent order if we get that.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Yes, he has been served with the notice for the hearing and the temporary restraining order. We have the time-stamped copies from the process server that shows he has been served and that the proof has been filed with the court clerk.

I was wondering about the possibility that he doesn't show up for the hearing. It could be possible that he will wait until he's dragged kicking and screaming by the marshal out of the house (which may be after the hearing date), but if he just leaves before that, we won't know where he is to serve the permanent order if we get that.
If the brother-in-law does not show up for the hearing, your husband can get an extension on the temporary restraining order. You can read through the links provided and they should give you the information you need.

Good luck, fledging.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Based on what you have posted, your restraining order is anything but a slam dunk, even if he doesn't show up. You have no evidence what-so-ever of any current threats. It sounds to me like you want to use a restraining order as an end-run around a proper eviction - one that I'm not even convinced you're entitled to seek in the first place (based on the vague mention of the house being in the trust.)
 

quincy

Senior Member
The "self-help" link I provided not only outlines in very clear language what one needs to do to seek a restraining order, there is also a list of resources available to those who need additional help.

I think it would be smart for fledging's husband to look for legal assistance in his area, as there appears to be many problems with the brother/brother-in-law, not all of which a restraining order alone will solve.
 

fledging

Junior Member
Please do not post to other states without looking up the statutes for said state. Thank You.
Not sure what you're referring to as you didn't quote any posts. I hope it's not directed toward me, the original poster.

BTW, as an update (perhaps to help anyone else looking at threads for help), my husband did obtain the permanent restraining order but for two years. It was a big bizarre as most of the others seeking r.o.s during the three times we were in a family court in September and October (the first time while waiting for the temporary r.o., the second time we went to a different courthouse to observe, and then the third time to get the permanent one), we noticed that the orders were usually for three or five years. Personally, it seemed that whenever a man was attempting to get a protective order, this specific judge was a bit reluctant to grant it. Didn't seem to be the case in the other courtroom we were observing in. I did a little googling and found someone complaining about this same judge in that he showed bias against male complainants.

What helped in our case was that his brother actually admitted in a letter he presented in court to striking my husband. That made it a slam dunk. I did turn in my written affidavits about his past behavior, including attacking his mother to the point that she landed in the ER (she showed me her extensive bruises). This judge also ordered the distance the brother needed to stay away at a third of the standard distance he granted to anyone else (100 feet as opposed to 300 feet). Fortunately a mistake was made when the orders were typed and the 300 feet was listed -- and the judge signed off on that. He also didn't want to include our daughter, saying that since she's at college, she doesn't need the protection. My husband had to argue that point as she hasn't moved to that town (most college students still list their parents' address as their permanent address while in college. That seemed very off to me.

In about a year and a half, we will check to see if this same judge is at that courthouse. Hopefully, he will be retired or moved on elsewhere by then. If not, we will try to file at another courthouse if possible.
 

Just Blue

Senior Member
Not sure what you're referring to as you didn't quote any posts. I hope it's not directed toward me, the original poster.

BTW, as an update (perhaps to help anyone else looking at threads for help), my husband did obtain the permanent restraining order but for two years. It was a big bizarre as most of the others seeking r.o.s during the three times we were in a family court in September and October (the first time while waiting for the temporary r.o., the second time we went to a different courthouse to observe, and then the third time to get the permanent one), we noticed that the orders were usually for three or five years. Personally, it seemed that whenever a man was attempting to get a protective order, this specific judge was a bit reluctant to grant it. Didn't seem to be the case in the other courtroom we were observing in. I did a little googling and found someone complaining about this same judge in that he showed bias against male complainants.

What helped in our case was that his brother actually admitted in a letter he presented in court to striking my husband. That made it a slam dunk. I did turn in my written affidavits about his past behavior, including attacking his mother to the point that she landed in the ER (she showed me her extensive bruises). This judge also ordered the distance the brother needed to stay away at a third of the standard distance he granted to anyone else (100 feet as opposed to 300 feet). Fortunately a mistake was made when the orders were typed and the 300 feet was listed -- and the judge signed off on that. He also didn't want to include our daughter, saying that since she's at college, she doesn't need the protection. My husband had to argue that point as she hasn't moved to that town (most college students still list their parents' address as their permanent address while in college. That seemed very off to me.

In about a year and a half, we will check to see if this same judge is at that courthouse. Hopefully, he will be retired or moved on elsewhere by then. If not, we will try to file at another courthouse if possible.
DO NOT attempt to advise other members, in other states. DO. Not!!

We, ALL of us, have to sit back and learn. :)
 

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