DA vs Juvenile

[mich09]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

I posted here earlier this month about my 16 year old nephew who has been charged with H&S 11357b, H&S 11379, 308 bpc, and bp 25662. The 11379 being for 35 ecstasy pills.

The DA doesn't like my nephew (mainly because he did cop an attitude towards her briefly at a court date - he was told exactly how to conduct himself...but why would he listen when he knows better). And seems extremely unwilling to consider dropping the distribution charge to a possession charge. His attorney is seeking possession with drug diversion but she doesn't seem to want a bit of it. I think that she sees him as an smart mouthed irresponsible party kid rather than someone in need of drug rehab.

If this was to go to trial/hearing and they were to base their case around him responding to a question by saying "they're not all mine, they're for friends". Is that by itself really enough to prove the charge? (To be perfectly honest it does seem pretty cut and dry to me, but in a legal sense...) They were in one bag, there were no other signs of dealing. I do admit that 35 seems suspiciously high for personal use. Is there any other defense he could use for his statement other than that he was asked these questions before miranda rights?

It really seems like she wants to go after him because he p!ssed her off. He acknowledges that it was a really really bad move to be smart to her, he says he was frustrated with her. (I'm just baffled that he seemed to forget so quickly how much he hated spending a couple of days in juvenile hall that he'd do something to compromise his case).

And for background info (and probably further ways that he has p!ssed off the DA), he completed a drug diversion programme in another state a couple of years ago, he has a prior alcohol charge here, he's had prior truancy issues in another state, he's been expelled from high school in another state, he's been suspended several times here and in the other state. Don't ask about grades.

Sadly, I'm beginning to think that he's screwed? And he's going to end up with this felony...(which I'm beginning to think he has wholeheartedly earned due to his lousy attitude and lack of comprehension about the fact that he may be about to lose all manner of control over his own life). He barely got released at the detention hearing, what's wrong with this kid.

We do have an attorney working on this, I'm just looking for other opinions.

 

[CdwJava]

The DA doesn't like my nephew (mainly because he did cop an attitude towards her briefly at a court date - he was told exactly how to conduct himself...but why would he listen when he knows better). And seems extremely unwilling to consider dropping the distribution charge to a possession charge. His attorney is seeking possession with drug diversion but she doesn't seem to want a bit of it. I think that she sees him as an smart mouthed irresponsible party kid rather than someone in need of drug rehab.

Given the exchange you describe, it seems that such an impression might not be far off the mark.

So, if your nephew is not willing to be contrite and proper, why should he expect anyone to drop their shorts and take one on his behalf?

If this was to go to trial/hearing and they were to base their case around him responding to a question by saying "they're not all mine, they're for friends". Is that by itself really enough to prove the charge?

It could be, yes. It shows transportation for sales/distribution.

hey were in one bag, there were no other signs of dealing. I do admit that 35 seems suspiciously high for personal use.

It is.

Is there any other defense he could use for his statement other than that he was asked these questions before miranda rights?

A Miranda violation is a long shot if he was not under arrest at the time he was asked these questions.

It really seems like she wants to go after him because he p!ssed her off.

Like I said, why shouldn't the DA go after him? He doesn't seem to be remorseful, so if he wants to act like the big badboy, then he needs to take his medicine like a big boy, too.

He acknowledges that it was a really really bad move to be smart to her, he says he was frustrated with her. (I'm just baffled that he seemed to forget so quickly how much he hated spending a couple of days in juvenile hall that he'd do something to compromise his case).

Junior seems to forget that it was HIS actions that got him here, not the actions of the DA, the police, or anyone else! HE did this to himself! No one else, just him!

Frankly, if I were the DA I'd probably go whole hog after the kid, too. He had his chance to show remorse, demonstrate his ability to behave himself, and he blew it. Combine that with his prior history, and he's a good candidate for custody. The only thing playing in his favor is that most counties are cutting budgets for juvenile halls, so it is possible that he might get home monitoring or maybe GPS tracking (which his legal guardian(s) will have to pay a good deal of money for ... that means you, right?).

And for background info (and probably further ways that he has p!ssed off the DA), he completed a drug diversion programme in another state a couple of years ago, he has a prior alcohol charge here, he's had prior truancy issues in another state, he's been expelled from high school in another state, he's been suspended several times here and in the other state. Don't ask about grades.

He's had his chance. He needs to wake up. Maybe a little hard dose of reality might slap some sense into him.

Sadly, the juvenile system will provide only a limp wristed swat on the hand, so he won't learn anything this time. Soon, he'll be going to grown up jail and to prison. He needs to wake up now!

He barely got released at the detention hearing, what's wrong with this kid.

If I knew, I'd be a millionaire, and I'd be a regular on Dr. Phil.

We do have an attorney working on this, I'm just looking for other opinions.

If your opinion is that your nephew is an unrepentent little twit, then we'll have to keep searching for another opinion.

- Carl

 

[mich09]

Given the exchange you describe, it seems that such an impression might not be far off the mark.

I'm not going to be the one to say it's not.

It could be, yes. It shows transportation for sales/distribution.

"Could be"? Is it just something that could be seen differently from judge to judge then? There's no onus on the prosecutor to provide additional evidence regarding what was going on, what was going to happen in the future?

A Miranda violation is a long shot if he was not under arrest at the time he was asked these questions.

Ok. I see, he wasn't.

Like I said, why shouldn't the DA go after him?

I don't know why she shouldn't....just motherly instincts I guess. (But the motherly instincts are beginning to wane. I'm tired. I'm getting ready to throw him to the wolves).

Junior seems to forget that it was HIS actions that got him here, not the actions of the DA, the police, or anyone else! HE did this to himself! No one else, just him!

Yes, he has always been the "yeah, I did it, BUT...." kid. Although this time he is adamant that he hasn't done what they are accusing him of, which is where the decision to mouth off came from. We're trying to get him to realise that he is responsible for all this. Trying.

Combine that with his prior history, and he's a good candidate for custody. The only thing playing in his favor is that most counties are cutting budgets for juvenile halls, so it is possible that he might get home monitoring or maybe GPS tracking (which his legal guardian(s) will have to pay a good deal of money for ... that means you, right?).

We'll put it on his tab. I'm firmly in the mindset now that I'd rather he were locked up though. Not because of the cost of GPS. Because I'd rather he experienced the real consequences of disregarding the law. I'd rather he saw some barbed wire, and locks and had to do as he was told 24/7 for a while. In the hope that he'd never want to put himself in that situation again. He thinks he's invincible, he thinks it won't happen. (he's making me angry at the moment)

Sadly, the juvenile system will provide only a limp wristed swat on the hand, so he won't learn anything this time.

Yes, he thinks it'll be just the same as the last drug charges. Nothing to worry about. Maybe we should encourage him to keep mouthing off to people.

Soon, he'll be going to grown up jail and to prison. He needs to wake up now!

My husband was just trying to yell some sense into him over this very issue yesterday. Yelling isn't a parenting technique he employs on any kind of regular basis. Hopefully the kid is smart enough to consider what that means. Smart mouth didn't have a word to say the whole time.

If your opinion is that your nephew is an unrepentent little twit, then we'll have to keep searching for another opinion.

That's nice. I can think of another word that rhymes with 'twit' that might be more accurate.

I don't know. When do you stop trying? I'm beginning to think we should just let him continue to make these mistakes in his interactions with the court and let him see how it turns out for himself (but then, like you say, if he just gets a smack on the hand he's just going to get more c*cky and arrogant). But then the protective part of me wants to keep trying to help him avoid having this felony charge on his record. I just want him to LEARN something.

 

[CdwJava]

He won't learn anything if he feels he was always get a soft landing from his family. It's time for some tough love, no matter what the end result here. He tows the line, or he's gone. No car, no computer, phone, radio, etc. - he earns those things back. He performs in school and gets a job. If he refuses, he can either go back to mom or he can be out the door on his 18th birthday.

So long as he has a safe place to land, and he has no legal consequences of his actions (and our juvenile system is antiquated and unrealistic in this regard) he will not see a need to change his ways at all.

As for your question on the proof provided by the prosecution, it really depends on the strength of the case, how it is presented, and what the judge believes. It could very well be enough to convict for transportation if he has 35 tablets and admits to intending to pass them on to friends. If the officer was thinking, he would have had a recorder on during the conversation.

Good luck ... I really do not envy your position.

- Carl

 

[mich09]

It's time for some tough love, no matter what the end result here. He tows the line, or he's gone. No car, no computer, phone, radio, etc. - he earns those things back. He performs in school and gets a job. If he refuses, he can either go back to mom or he can be out the door on his 18th birthday.

Yes, you're right. This is what we're aiming to do now. And he already knows that he can't go back to mom's or his grandparents. He's ruined those relationships. We hadn't allowed him to get a license here - CA doesn't need him driving around. He was meant to be proving to us that he was responsible enough for one....that's going to take some time. We've told him that we're keeping track of the expenses he's racking up here and he WILL be paying us back. I think that even after this his life is going to be shut down for quite some time.

And we got a visit from his girlfriend's father. He'd tried to tell the kid over the phone that he and his daughter weren't to see each other anymore but apparently he managed to sneak a few phone calls in. So he decided it would be better to tell him in person to stay away from his daughter, that his daughter had nothing to do with drugs before he turned up and she doesn't need it. He's quite smitten with her, and he's upset by the visit. There's a real consequence for him.

As for your question on the proof provided by the prosecution, it really depends on the strength of the case, how it is presented, and what the judge believes. It could very well be enough to convict for transportation if he has 35 tablets and admits to intending to pass them on to friends.

Ok, thanks.

Good luck ... I really do not envy your position.

Thanks......

 

[smutlydog]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

I posted here earlier this month about my 16 year old nephew who has been charged with H&S 11357b, H&S 11379, 308 bpc, and bp 25662. The 11379 being for 35 ecstasy pills.

The DA doesn't like my nephew (mainly because he did cop an attitude towards her briefly at a court date - he was told exactly how to conduct himself...but why would he listen when he knows better). And seems extremely unwilling to consider dropping the distribution charge to a possession charge. His attorney is seeking possession with drug diversion but she doesn't seem to want a bit of it. I think that she sees him as an smart mouthed irresponsible party kid rather than someone in need of drug rehab.

If this was to go to trial/hearing and they were to base their case around him responding to a question by saying "they're not all mine, they're for friends". Is that by itself really enough to prove the charge? (To be perfectly honest it does seem pretty cut and dry to me, but in a legal sense...) They were in one bag, there were no other signs of dealing. I do admit that 35 seems suspiciously high for personal use. Is there any other defense he could use for his statement other than that he was asked these questions before miranda rights?

It really seems like she wants to go after him because he p!ssed her off. He acknowledges that it was a really really bad move to be smart to her, he says he was frustrated with her. (I'm just baffled that he seemed to forget so quickly how much he hated spending a couple of days in juvenile hall that he'd do something to compromise his case).

And for background info (and probably further ways that he has p!ssed off the DA), he completed a drug diversion programme in another state a couple of years ago, he has a prior alcohol charge here, he's had prior truancy issues in another state, he's been expelled from high school in another state, he's been suspended several times here and in the other state. Don't ask about grades.

Sadly, I'm beginning to think that he's screwed? And he's going to end up with this felony...(which I'm beginning to think he has wholeheartedly earned due to his lousy attitude and lack of comprehension about the fact that he may be about to lose all manner of control over his own life). He barely got released at the detention hearing, what's wrong with this kid.

We do have an attorney working on this, I'm just looking for other opinions.

The whole concept of drug rehabs and teenagers is a very tricky thing. He is at the point in life where the drugs have not yet created any real problems. In other words the adults in his life are the problem solvers. He also doesn't really understand the financial consequences of addiction and his physical health is probably OK at this point in life.

You have to love and emotionally support your your child unconditionally but never take his side when he complains about the legal system. It's possible that the DA is being cynical but who's problem is it? This boy needs to be his own problem solver?

 

[mich09]

He is at the point in life where the drugs have not yet created any real problems. In other words the adults in his life are the problem solvers. He also doesn't really understand the financial consequences of addiction and his physical health is probably OK at this point in life.

This is very true. It is very much a social issue for him, it's a party thing. The possibility of drug abuse does not seem to be something he's thought of. He thinks this is all an over-reaction. I on the other hand think it is a HUGE step to go from personal marijuana possession to being accused of being a supplier of ecstasy. What comes next??

You have to love and emotionally support your your child unconditionally but never take his side when he complains about the legal system. It's possible that the DA is being cynical but who's problem is it? This boy needs to be his own problem solver?

Yes, I do think that he has a couple of valid points about the DA but I'm not going to let him know that. We're just telling him to RESPECT her, and that he's not there to evaluate her abilities. He hasn't yet reached the level of comprehension that everything that's going on comes directly back to him, that he's responsible and it's all because of the choices that he made (try as we might).

 

[mich09]

I was just reading this again, I'd filed it away in my brain that there were comments I'd want to read again.

Maybe a little hard dose of reality might slap some sense into him.

Yes I think it has. If you're interested, there still seem to be some counties out there with healthy juvenile hall budgets. I didn't see the judge doing any math before he sent this kid there. And he seems very much subdued, even a little thoughtful. I was very glad that they didn't just smack his hand.

He'll be home really soon, which is why I was reading the soft landing/tough love comments. I think he'd assumed that we were going to throw him out, give up on him like everyone else, he seems genuinely touched that he has a home to come back to. If he thinks that we'd get scared by a little...felony drugs case, then he doesn't understand how insane we really are. (someone has to keep at it with the kid)

He eventually ended up with a possession charge, that was a big fight for his attorney. But the DA had no flexibility for drug diversion or anything other than custody, and she got her wish. (he even managed to pick up another marijuana charge inbetween having an attitude and shrugging his shoulders at court dates, so that really sealed the deal)

 

[CdwJava]

Some people just do not learn! That bodes ill for later in life.

 

[mich09]

Some people just do not learn! That bodes ill for later in life.

The way he behaved during his whole court case, I sort of started to think, ok, maybe I can see why your stepdad used to come at you swinging a belt. He acted like a brat a couple of times, and then getting caught with a nicely rolled joint...I was ready to go and sit behind the DA.

I think he has begun to learn. And getting sent to juvie was the catalyst. He's going to be under very close supervision while he continues to learn. He'll get a lot of focus on why drugs and alcohol are such a good escape for him.

 

[cyjeff]

Carl and I grew up in similar families (no, we don't know each other but have spent several years posting... friends crop up in weird places)...

Anyway, there is no substitute for hard work.

Here is what I would recommend. Carl and I favor farms or stables.... someplace where the work is honest, hard and leaves you too damn tired to get into trouble.

You tell junior that his life has changed. He will now get up predawn, work for a couple of hours, go to school, go back to work and then do homework until his very early bedtime.

That will be his entire life. Weekends and vacations just mean that he works more than he goes to school.

In the meantime, you remove everything from his room with any value... up to and including the door. He has not earned the right to ANYTHING, including privacy.

Don't yell. Don't scream. Don't even argue. This is his life if he wants to live under your roof and eat your food.

The money he earns will go into a college fund ... aside from a small amount for his own use that will rise over time as he proves himself.

As the amount in the college fund grows, his priviledges are returned. Maybe he gets his iPod back at a thousand... his cell back at five.... come up with your own levels.

He will fight... he will beg... tell him that he has run out of chances.

Sweat equity in your own life is a precious lesson.

 

[CdwJava]

Ditto!

I still have very "fond" memories of being about 10 and digging a stump out of a neighbors yard with a pick, a shovel, and some chains. I learned never to repeat the same mistake again!

 

[cyjeff]

Ditto!

I still have very "fond" memories of being about 10 and digging a stump out of a neighbors yard with a pick, a shovel, and some chains. I learned never to repeat the same mistake again!

Have I told you my "move that hole" stories?

 

[CdwJava]

Have I told you my "move that hole" stories?

I don't know that you have, but I think I can get the idea just on the title of the tale!

 

[cyjeff]

I don't know that you have, but I think I can get the idea just on the title of the tale!

My father was an Army DI. When we were kids (I have 5 brothers) and got into trouble, dad would take us out back, hand us a shovel and point to a hole.

The hole was about 3 feet across and 3 feet deep.

"I don't like the hole where it is," he would say, "Move it over there." And would point across the yard.

Moving holes focuses your mind in ways I haven't found since.