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Can Someone Be Forced To Stay In Nursing Home?

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Rick S

Junior Member
What is the name of your state? TN
On 2/29, my 81y/o friend was tricked by his daughter into leaving his home of 20 years, to see his GP in an office call. The GP walked into the room and without even looking down B's throat or ears, said he was admitting B into the hospital to see if there was a reason why B fell several times in the previous week. The doc had gathered this info and arranged this ahead of time, by phone with B's daughter, who holds a POA for her father. I'm unsure of the breadth of the POA, though I believe she had him sign it the summer of 06, after he received a dementia diagnosis.
His dementia manifests itself primarily in short term memory deficits and he has an established record of hiring live in caretakers for at least the last 3 years to assist with ADL he doesn't care to do such as cooking, laundry, driving and administering insulin. He has at least $1m in cash and assets, so he afford this kind of arrangement for the foreseeable future. He bathes and grooms himself, feeds his self, hangs up on telemarketers that call him, is ambulatory without cane, etc.
After 4 days in the hospital, B was transferred to a nursing home, supposedly for physical therapy, or so he has been told by everyone, except me. His daughter terminated his caregiver the day after he was hospitalized and has ordered her to move by Friday, as the daughter is closing the house up. Daughter came in and removed his wallet, ID, checks and 2006 financial records and is arranging for the sale of his vehicles. Five years ago he bought himself a new Jaguar, if that tells you how much life this man has in him. She is trying to transfer him to a nursing home where she lives 4 hours away and would have already, if his insurance would have covered a nursing home outside his county of residence. She is trying to change his policy asap to get coverage there. She tried to get him into an assisted living place immediately after dementia diagnosis last summer and he didn't want any part of it.
I have visited several times with him in the first 10 days of this ordeal. He tells me he wants to go home and I am afraid to put him in the car and take him there, for fear of kidnap charge or some other vindictiveness from daughter. He did sign POA to me last Friday, limited to authorizing me to do anything necessary to get him home and revoking any POA powers that was giving anyone else the right to put him in a nursing home.
I found the NAELA site and was referred by someone there to an attorney about 10 minutes from the nursing home, who would be experienced in contested conservatorships. Because of B's diminished capacity, I think she is having problems accepting the case, and she is very ethically correct to have concerns about B's legal capacity, should this be so. The daughter announced to a source today that she is going to try and hang an ethics charge on this excellent young attorney, for making the effort on two separate occasions, to visit Bill in the nursing home to ascertain his lucidity and that security should be called if either I or the attorney comes back to nursing home.
I have harnessed the power of the internet for elder law and abuse research since this started, as well as the Vandy law library, and as a result filed a complaint of elder abuse against the daughter yesterday with state APS. They said they would not have any answers for 7 days and I don't feel this is fast enough. I guess I'm going to have to proceed pro se, as time is of the essence, to restore his freedom and ease his mind. I would sleep better too. I'm a battle tested old union officer, who defeated my Fortune 300 employers attempt to subrogate $40k of a $100k MVA settlement I received, with a pre-answer motion, pro se. I've done my research this week into elder law and abuse and expect to file a conservatorship petition Thursday. How can I compel and insure that B will be present at this hearing? Is there anything that I can do to get him home one minute sooner?
Thank you in advance for your time and attention to this matter.
 
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BlondiePB

Senior Member
Please edit this making it shorter with just the legal stuff and use paragraphs.

Of what I did read, your POA is NOT valid.
 

Rick S

Junior Member
I doubt her POA is any more valid than mine, because of the dementia induced diminished capacity. It does demonstrate his intent to be set free. As each situation is fact specific, I included what I felt was a minimum of facts.
By what legal authority and theory does the daughter operate on to deceive her father into a nursing home, that I may have missed? Is there an alternative or faster way to secure his freedom, than strategies I'm pursuing?
 

ellencee

Senior Member
What is the name of your state? TN
On 2/29, my 81y/o friend was tricked by his daughter into leaving his home of 20 years, to see his GP in an office call. The GP walked into the room and without even looking down B's throat or ears, said he was admitting B into the hospital to see if there was a reason why B fell several times in the previous week. The doc had gathered this info and arranged this ahead of time, by phone with B's daughter, who holds a POA for her father. I'm unsure of the breadth of the POA, though I believe she had him sign it the summer of 06, after he received a dementia diagnosis. His dementia manifests itself primarily in short term memory deficits and he has an established record of hiring live in caretakers for at least the last 3 years to assist with ADL he doesn't care to do such as cooking, laundry, driving and administering insulin. He has at least $1m in cash and assets, so he afford this kind of arrangement for the foreseeable future. He bathes and grooms himself, feeds his self, hangs up on telemarketers that call him, is ambulatory without cane, etc. After 4 days in the hospital, B was transferred to a nursing home, supposedly for physical therapy, or so he has been told by everyone, except me. His daughter terminated his caregiver the day after he was hospitalized and has ordered her to move by Friday, as the daughter is closing the house up. Daughter came in and removed his wallet, ID, checks and 2006 financial records and is arranging for the sale of his vehicles. Five years ago he bought himself a new Jaguar, if that tells you how much life this man has in him. She is trying to transfer him to a nursing home where she lives 4 hours away and would have already, if his insurance would have covered a nursing home outside his county of residence. She is trying to change his policy asap to get coverage there. She tried to get him into an assisted living place immediately after dementia diagnosis last summer and he didn't want any part of it. I have visited several times with him in the first 10 days of this ordeal. He tells me he wants to go home and I am afraid to put him in the car and take him there, for fear of kidnap charge or some other vindictiveness from daughter. He did sign POA to me last Friday, limited to authorizing me to do anything necessary to get him home and revoking any POA powers that was giving anyone else the right to put him in a nursing home. I found the NAELA site and was referred by someone there to an attorney about 10 minutes from the nursing home, who would be experienced in contested conservatorships. Because of B's diminished capacity, I think she is having problems accepting the case, and she is very ethically correct to have concerns about B's legal capacity, should this be so. The daughter announced to a source today that she is going to try and hang an ethics charge on this excellent young attorney, for making the effort on two separate occasions, to visit Bill in the nursing home to ascertain his lucidity and that security should be called if either I or the attorney comes back to nursing home. I have harnessed the power of the internet for elder law and abuse research since this started, as well as the Vandy law library, and as a result filed a complaint of elder abuse against the daughter yesterday with state APS. They said they would not have any answers for 7 days and I don't feel this is fast enough. I guess I'm going to have to proceed pro se, as time is of the essence, to restore his freedom and ease his mind. I would sleep better too. I'm a battle tested old union officer, who defeated my Fortune 300 employers attempt to subrogate $40k of a $100k MVA settlement I received, with a pre-answer motion, pro se. I've done my research this week into elder law and abuse and expect to file a conservatorship petition Thursday. How can I compel and insure that B will be present at this hearing? Is there anything that I can do to get him home one minute sooner? Thank you in advance for your time and attention to this matter.
It seems to me that you are way out of line and meddling in affairs that aren't yours and should not be yours.

I don't see any mention of your being willing to take this man into your home, do his cooking, his cleaning, take him to appointments, get up in the middle of the night and meet him at the ER. Obviously, his daughter, who must be close to 60 years of age, is willing to do everything necessary to bring her father closer to her place of residence so that she may be close enough to him on a daily basis to make sure that he receives the care and comfort that he needs.

Certainly, the 81 year-old man wants to leave the nursing home and go to his home. His wanting it does not make it appropriate. A 76 year-old man's purchasing a Jaguar does not equal good sense and a fullness of vim and vigor; it equals an elderly man without enough common sense than to buy a car that his reflexes cannot handle and as such places every person in every automobile on the road with him in grave danger. Short term memory loss and dementia coupled with a high performance auto--come on, man--think about what you're saying.

Maybe you can use your energy and time to make life easier for your friend instead of making it more difficult by angering his daughter. Maybe you can help your friend accept the changes, that is, if he remembers he's moving.

I don't expect you to win your case, not this time. Then, you can move to the next stage of the grief process as your mourn the loss of your friend when he moves away and you are forever barred from having contact with him. Poor guy, he's losing your friendship when all he was losing was his place of residence and some minor independence.

Just consider my response an example of what you are about to hear from the defense and from a judge.

EC
 

Rick S

Junior Member
Actually, I have been the one who provided respite care for the last year for his live in caretaker. I did clean his body after he had a bowel movement accident trying to walk to toilet in hospital. When hearing about this, the daughter told me that she never would have done it herself and would have put it on the CNA instead. I have driven him to more doc appointments in last 2 years than daughter has in her life, including er visits. I live 2 blocks from him and visited several times weekly as I ran errands for him and caretaker.
There is no need to take him into my home as he has his own, a demonstrated history of idependent living and capacity to financially do so. I brought up his car as example of his 5 year history. He stopped driving last year because I talked him into it. He has never had a MVA in his life and I told him to stop driving for fear that he was not focused enough while driving. No one should be forced into a nursing home, when all they needed was out patient PT, that could even be done in their own home. Daughter is 48 and not taking him into her home.
All the professional literature I've reviewed this week indicates that removing a dementia patient from familiar home surroundings and placing them in a nursing homes accelerates morbidity. Also fear of or being actually being put in a nursing home is a leading cause of elder suicide. Only 1 in 23 cases of elder abuse are reported. Reporting elder abuse is not mandated in the way child abuse reporting is, but I will intervene in either when I become aware of it. The loss of home and independence has been given far less weight in your opinion than I believe it merits.
I will follow your grieving advice, should I lose. I will have at least tried.
 
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BlondiePB

Senior Member
On 2/29, my 81y/o friend was tricked by his daughter into leaving his home of 20 years, to see his GP in an office call. The GP walked into the room and without even looking down B's throat or ears, said he was admitting B into the hospital to see if there was a reason why B fell several times in the previous week. The doc had gathered this info and arranged this ahead of time, by phone with B's daughter, who holds a POA for her father.
This elder fell several times on YOUR watch in ONE week, and you are questioning HIS doctor wanting to admit him to a hospital? Do you suppose the elder NEEDED to be checked for a stroke? :rolleyes:
I'm unsure of the breadth of the POA, though I believe she had him sign it the summer of 06, after he received a dementia diagnosis.
Your belief is speculation and DOES NOT cut the mustard.
His dementia manifests itself primarily in short term memory deficits and he has an established record of hiring live in caretakers for at least the last 3 years to assist with ADL he doesn't care to do such as cooking, laundry, driving and administering insulin. He has at least $1m in cash and assets, so he afford this kind of arrangement for the foreseeable future. He bathes and grooms himself, feeds his self, hangs up on telemarketers that call him, is ambulatory without cane, etc.
So, if he is so ambulatory, why is he falling in YOUR CARE.
After 4 days in the hospital, B was transferred to a nursing home, supposedly for physical therapy, or so he has been told by everyone, except me.
That's exactly what the elder needed and it's NONE of your business.
His daughter terminated his caregiver the day after he was hospitalized and has ordered her to move by Friday, as the daughter is closing the house up. Daughter came in and removed his wallet, ID, checks and 2006 financial records and is arranging for the sale of his vehicles.
The daughter made excellent decisions.
Five years ago he bought himself a new Jaguar, if that tells you how much life this man has in him.
Your additional details regarding him not driving anymore per your influence/convincing is just adding to how bad this all is looking for you.
She is trying to transfer him to a nursing home where she lives 4 hours away and would have already, if his insurance would have covered a nursing home outside his county of residence. She is trying to change his policy asap to get coverage there. She tried to get him into an assisted living place immediately after dementia diagnosis last summer and he didn't want any part of it.
More excellent decisions by the daughter.
I have visited several times with him in the first 10 days of this ordeal. He tells me he wants to go home and I am afraid to put him in the car and take him there, for fear of kidnap charge or some other vindictiveness from daughter.
Yep, you'd be crossing the line and facing criminal charges.
He did sign POA to me last Friday, limited to authorizing me to do anything necessary to get him home and revoking any POA powers that was giving anyone else the right to put him in a nursing home.
As previously stated, your POA is NOT valid. I can just imagine a judge's face. :rolleyes:
I found the NAELA site and was referred by someone there to an attorney about 10 minutes from the nursing home, who would be experienced in contested conservatorships. Because of B's diminished capacity, I think she is having problems accepting the case, and she is very ethically correct to have concerns about B's legal capacity, should this be so.
What a bunch of horsehockey!!
The daughter announced to a source today that she is going to try and hang an ethics charge on this excellent young attorney, for making the effort on two separate occasions, to visit Bill in the nursing home to ascertain his lucidity and that security should be called if either I or the attorney comes back to nursing home.
This is what that attorney has problems with and the daughter is absolutely correct.
I have harnessed the power of the internet for elder law and abuse research since this started, as well as the Vandy law library, and as a result filed a complaint of elder abuse against the daughter yesterday with state APS. They said they would not have any answers for 7 days and I don't feel this is fast enough. I guess I'm going to have to proceed pro se, as time is of the essence, to restore his freedom and ease his mind. I would sleep better too. I'm a battle tested old union officer, who defeated my Fortune 300 employers attempt to subrogate $40k of a $100k MVA settlement I received, with a pre-answer motion, pro se. I've done my research this week into elder law and abuse and expect to file a conservatorship petition Thursday.
Quite frankly, the only one who is needs to be investigated is you. The daughter has made all the correct decisions here.
How can I compel and insure that B will be present at this hearing?
You MUST provide the court with the daughter's address, etc. You think this hearing is going to happen in a few days? That's NOT going to happen.
Is there anything that I can do to get him home one minute sooner?
Absolutely not.
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
It seems to me that you are way out of line and meddling in affairs that aren't yours and should not be yours.

I don't see any mention of your being willing to take this man into your home, do his cooking, his cleaning, take him to appointments, get up in the middle of the night and meet him at the ER. Obviously, his daughter, who must be close to 60 years of age, is willing to do everything necessary to bring her father closer to her place of residence so that she may be close enough to him on a daily basis to make sure that he receives the care and comfort that he needs.

Certainly, the 81 year-old man wants to leave the nursing home and go to his home. His wanting it does not make it appropriate. A 76 year-old man's purchasing a Jaguar does not equal good sense and a fullness of vim and vigor; it equals an elderly man without enough common sense than to buy a car that his reflexes cannot handle and as such places every person in every automobile on the road with him in grave danger. Short term memory loss and dementia coupled with a high performance auto--come on, man--think about what you're saying.

Maybe you can use your energy and time to make life easier for your friend instead of making it more difficult by angering his daughter. Maybe you can help your friend accept the changes, that is, if he remembers he's moving.

I don't expect you to win your case, not this time. Then, you can move to the next stage of the grief process as your mourn the loss of your friend when he moves away and you are forever barred from having contact with him. Poor guy, he's losing your friendship when all he was losing was his place of residence and some minor independence.

Just consider my response an example of what you are about to hear from the defense and from a judge.

EC
I totally & 100% agree with you. This will be like shooting ducks in a barrel for the judge.
 

callietoo

Junior Member
Good luck with your friend!

I hope you keep trying to help your friend...good luck ! And the man could have fallen in anyone's watch ...give the guy a break. He's concerned about a friend and what makes you think there aren't daughters out there that only want the money control and don't care about dad? Come on ..be real ...not all daughters want whats best for dear old dad ...and you don't know any more than i do if shes misusing her power.
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
Oh, brother...

I hope you keep trying to help your friend...good luck ! And the man could have fallen in anyone's watch ...give the guy a break. He's concerned about a friend and what makes you think there aren't daughters out there that only want the money control and don't care about dad? Come on ..be real ...not all daughters want whats best for dear old dad ...and you don't know any more than i do if shes misusing her power.
:rolleyes:
 

garrula lingua

Senior Member
Well, Rick, I hope I have a friend like you, as I age.

Who knows what this man's capacity is ?
It sounds as though the attorney was trying to set up a competentcy hearing - that's the best idea.

If the gent has enough money to provide care in his home, why shouldn't he be able to do that ?
Possibly there's a better solution to a nursing home - an assisted living establishment, or a group home for the elderly.
Maybe a nursing home is best - but options should be explored.
I can't fault Rick - I only wish there were more Ricks out there watching out for the elderly.
We need to take care of our children and our elderly - they need a lot of love and care.
Growing old brings an abundance of legal and emotional problems to the courts - when is it 'kidnap'/duress/abuse versus having to take over all decisions for an aging, incompetent parent.
Hard question: when is dragging an elder from familiar surroundings and friends. into a sterile hospital-like isolation in a nursing home best for the elder ?

Who knows what is motivating people who are making decisions for Dad ?
Some children might be concerned about $/inheritance being spent & possibly want to put Dad away where he can't buy any more Jags or hire others & spend inheritance $.

It does seem cruel to pull an 81yo away from a friend - why not put him in a nursing home in Dad's county & thereby allow friends to visit ? That sounds odd.

Maybe she's afraid Dad will leave Rick, or other friends, $ ?
Or, maybe she's afraid Dad can't take care of himself and needs 24 hour care.
 

ceara19

Senior Member
I doubt her POA is any more valid than mine, because of the dementia induced diminished capacity. It does demonstrate his intent to be set free. As each situation is fact specific, I included what I felt was a minimum of facts.
By what legal authority and theory does the daughter operate on to deceive her father into a nursing home, that I may have missed? Is there an alternative or faster way to secure his freedom, than strategies I'm pursuing?
This argument makes absolutely no sense. If his dementia is severe enough to invalidate the POA's, it clearly means that he is not capable of making decisions for himself, including the decision to continue living in his home. I'm not pointing this out because I agree with his daughter's stance on the matter, or yours for that matter. It's just a simple fact.
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
Well, Rick, I hope I have a friend like you, as I age.

Who knows what this man's capacity is ?
It sounds as though the attorney was trying to set up a competentcy hearing - that's the best idea.

If the gent has enough money to provide care in his home, why shouldn't he be able to do that ?
Possibly there's a better solution to a nursing home - an assisted living establishment, or a group home for the elderly.
Maybe a nursing home is best - but options should be explored.
I can't fault Rick - I only wish there were more Ricks out there watching out for the elderly.
We need to take care of our children and our elderly - they need a lot of love and care.
Growing old brings an abundance of legal and emotional problems to the courts - when is it 'kidnap'/duress/abuse versus having to take over all decisions for an aging, incompetent parent.
Hard question: when is dragging an elder from familiar surroundings and friends. into a sterile hospital-like isolation in a nursing home best for the elder ?

Who knows what is motivating people who are making decisions for Dad ?
Some children might be concerned about $/inheritance being spent & possibly want to put Dad away where he can't buy any more Jags or hire others & spend inheritance $.

It does seem cruel to pull an 81yo away from a friend - why not put him in a nursing home in Dad's county & thereby allow friends to visit ? That sounds odd.

Maybe she's afraid Dad will leave Rick, or other friends, $ ?
Or, maybe she's afraid Dad can't take care of himself and needs 24 hour care.
The daughter here has done everything correctly because her father is a fall risk. Rick did not even consider that the elder may have had a stroke causing the multiple falls in a week. Rather, he whined about the elder's physician sending him (the elder) to a hospital.

The daughter is bringing her father closer to her home so she doesn't have to drive 4 hours to check on her father. Removing elders from their homes is, typically, a heart wrenching decision. Rick is not "privy" to the recommendations of the elder's physician. Physicians do document things such as an elder being capable of living in their homes or where the elder needs to be placed (nursing home; ALF).

Rick needs to butt out or step up to the plate and help the elder's daughter, rather than having himself a pity-party. Rick's attorney had no business attempting to visit the elder to judge the elder's competency. That was crossing the line.

Even an ALF may not be appropriate for the elder in this situation because of him being a fall risk. That elder can fall in his suite/room and not be found for hours.
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
This argument makes absolutely no sense. If his dementia is severe enough to invalidate the POA's, it clearly means that he is not capable of making decisions for himself, including the decision to continue living in his home. I'm not pointing this out because I agree with his daughter's stance on the matter, or yours for that matter. It's just a simple fact.
Thank you.

This makes no sense because it's something that Arkie would post.
 

garrula lingua

Senior Member
Thank God my family hasn't realized how demented I am :D ;
I would have been relegated to a home years ago, when dementia first set in.

I would rather fall & be found days later, than live comfortably in jail.

If I make it to old bones, I'll be a runner.
I like the idea of a half-way house for old farts.
24 hour care and can still run amok.
 

fairisfair

Senior Member
Thank God my family hasn't realized how demented I am :D ;
I would have been relegated to a home years ago, when dementia first set in.

I would rather fall & be found days later, than live comfortably in jail.

If I make it to old bones, I'll be a runner.
I like the idea of a half-way house for old farts.
24 hour care and can still run amok.

Well, I must be as demented as you are cause I agree completely.

Oh, my, is it possible that perhaps both his friend AND his daughter have his best interests at heart?? but one is seeing the day to day friend with the occasional lapses in memory. and one is seeing the occasional dad with the all medical issues and problems??
 

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