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RESPONSE OF "GERRY GOLDSHOLLE" CEO OF FREEADVICE.COM TO THE ISSUE OF "KIDNAPPING" IAAL HAS PRESENTED.
On Wed, 23 Aug 00 14:07:13 -0700 "Gerry Goldsholle" <[email protected]> writes:
"This is clearly a matter on which the father should seek personal legal advice from an experienced and knowledgeable attorney. However, what the father has done is ask, on our layperson to layperson bulletin board, from imput from others who have gone thru something like this.
"Fortunately neither I nor any family member nor friend has ever been in any terribly troubling matter like this personal matter like this so I can't provide him input. And I am neither pro-mother or pro-father, but very pro-child and most pro the rule of law.
"The issues you raise, concerning violation of American law, or laws that an American court would take cognizance of, are not a legal subject matter that I am familiar with, at all, and thus nothing in this message is intended as legal advice to anyone. On the basis of what I recall learning years ago, and general information picked up over the years, I wonder whether even a knowledgeable lawyer would have enough information to reach any firm legal conclusion that an American law is being or might be violated.
"First, based on the posting we can assume that the father is a US citizen who was living abroad, and has not forfeited his US citizenship, and is under no compulsion to remain in the country he was living in. He thus should have the right to return to, and live in the US, if he wishes.
"Second, let's assume that mother is not a US citizen but a citizen of a foreign nation, and that she and the father are lawfully married and were living in the foreign country of which she is a citizen. (If the couple is living in a third country, that merely complicates matters.)
"Third, let's assume that the daughter has, or can have (as he is applying for recognition of her US citzenship) dual citzenship in the mother's country and in the US. (If the child was born in a third country that recognizes birth in that country as vesting citizenship, the child might have triple citizenship.)
"Fourth, I get the sense that the couple was living together and raising the child, but in an unsatisfactory relationship. Obviously the husband wants out of the marriage and custody of the child.
"We do not have a clue as to what foreign country(ies) are involved, their laws about marriage, divorce, the right to establish residence, presumptions or rules as to custody, parental rights, etc. For example, do the foreign country's laws give equal rights to both parents? Or do they, as some nations do, give the mother greater rights? Or do they, as other countries do, give the father paramount rights? (For example, in some Islamic nations a husband can divorce his wife almost at will.)
"Now let's further assume that at the time the father / husband took the child out of the country, there was no binding court order or custody agreement in place that provides for restrictions on the child's residence, custody, etc.
"Would not, in the absence of any binding court order or foreign law or agreement, both parties probably have equal rights to change the matrimonial home? And the child's home? Is inertia alone the basis for custody of their child? If not, what would prevent the husband / father from returning to the US and taking the child with him?
"Consider a recent case of note, Elian Gonzalez. While in that case the mother died at sea, let's assume she and Elian both survived and reached the US. Presumably she would NOT have been violating any US law, and could have gone to a Family court in the US and sought to obtain sole custody. (Whether this would have violated Cuban law, or not, is beyond me.) Clearly Elian's mother would be more likely to obtain what she regards as a favorable outcome from a US court than a Cuban court.
"And clearly Elian's father could have gone to a Cuban court for an order giving him custody. And if Elian's father was escaping Cuba with Elian, I fail to see any legal differences in the fact that he was a man rather than a woman, nor would their marital status (or lack thereof) necessarily be relevant.
"I find it difficult to distinguish between the Elian case and the one on the BBS, if my assumptions hold, and doubt that the difference is Cuba.
"We would cooperate with any court order requiring us to turn material over, but unless I may be missing something, I do not see that a crime under American law is being committed or that there is a serious danger of one being committed that would make it appropriate for us to contact the FBI or other American law enforcement agencies. I'd value your reaction.
"Gerry H. Goldsholle CEO - Advice Company Leadership in Law, http://FreeAdvice.com, and http://ExpertPages.com
---------------------------------
IAAL'S RESPONSE TO "GERRY GOLDSHOLLE, CEO OF FREEADVICE.COM CONCERNING REPORTING THE POTENTIAL CRIME OF KIDNAPPING:
"Dear Gerry:
While I understand your response, I think there may a misunderstanding as to what I was asking. I was not asking for a reply or an opinion. I was asking that this matter be reported to the authorities.
"Please understand, also, that time is of the extreme essence in this matter and I am asking that you report this intent to commit a crime to the FBI for their action.
"There is no time to debate this matter, and I respectfully request that you allow the FBI to find this man, and allow the courts to make the final determination - - I have only asked that you turn the matter over to authorities IMMEDIATELY because you have the man's I.P. address, and can trace him and the computer from where the message was sent.
"In my opinion, this matter is a criminal matter, or has the potential for being a crime, and precious time is being wasted. Once "intent" to commit a crime has been shown, we have a lawful duty to report it - not postulate on the "what ifs" or make comparisons to the Elian Gonzalez case.
"And, since YOU hold the "key" (the I.P. log number) to prevent this felony from taking place, I implore you to exercise your judgment by erring on the side of safety, assuming any error exists at all, and report this matter TODAY.
"The Gonzalez case is manifestly different from the present situation. In that case, the mother died and there was no one left to consider for prosecution for kidnapping under American law. Here, however, we have a person who is taking advantage of American law and its "protections", talking about kidnapping, and HE IS ALIVE.
"He is contemplating, or has already been, violating American law that the child, once on this soil, is entitled to as a protection under the U.S. Constitution.
"Therefore, I implore you to merely turn the information over to the F.B.I., post haste, and let them, and the courts worry about the validity of my request and your decision to open the I.P. address.
"Remember, let's err on the side of safety, the law, AND our duty as citizens to report a crime if one is perceived. Let's let the proper authorities make the decisions.
"Thank you for your anticipated, and expedited, cooperation.
Sincerely,
IAAL"
================================================
From: "Gerry Goldsholle" <[email protected]>
To: "I AM ALWAYS LIABLE"
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:20:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Father Takes Child to US
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
I understand you are very concerned and respect that. Please feel free to
report the matter to the FBI if you think a crime is being committed, or is
about to be committed.
Our basic understanding, in contrast to yours, is we have no reason to
conclude the father is about to commit any crime under American law. (While Elian's mother died, had she lived do you believe there would not have been a US prosecution for bringing her own child to this country, seeking citizenship, and depriving the father of wh
On Wed, 23 Aug 00 14:07:13 -0700 "Gerry Goldsholle" <[email protected]> writes:
"This is clearly a matter on which the father should seek personal legal advice from an experienced and knowledgeable attorney. However, what the father has done is ask, on our layperson to layperson bulletin board, from imput from others who have gone thru something like this.
"Fortunately neither I nor any family member nor friend has ever been in any terribly troubling matter like this personal matter like this so I can't provide him input. And I am neither pro-mother or pro-father, but very pro-child and most pro the rule of law.
"The issues you raise, concerning violation of American law, or laws that an American court would take cognizance of, are not a legal subject matter that I am familiar with, at all, and thus nothing in this message is intended as legal advice to anyone. On the basis of what I recall learning years ago, and general information picked up over the years, I wonder whether even a knowledgeable lawyer would have enough information to reach any firm legal conclusion that an American law is being or might be violated.
"First, based on the posting we can assume that the father is a US citizen who was living abroad, and has not forfeited his US citizenship, and is under no compulsion to remain in the country he was living in. He thus should have the right to return to, and live in the US, if he wishes.
"Second, let's assume that mother is not a US citizen but a citizen of a foreign nation, and that she and the father are lawfully married and were living in the foreign country of which she is a citizen. (If the couple is living in a third country, that merely complicates matters.)
"Third, let's assume that the daughter has, or can have (as he is applying for recognition of her US citzenship) dual citzenship in the mother's country and in the US. (If the child was born in a third country that recognizes birth in that country as vesting citizenship, the child might have triple citizenship.)
"Fourth, I get the sense that the couple was living together and raising the child, but in an unsatisfactory relationship. Obviously the husband wants out of the marriage and custody of the child.
"We do not have a clue as to what foreign country(ies) are involved, their laws about marriage, divorce, the right to establish residence, presumptions or rules as to custody, parental rights, etc. For example, do the foreign country's laws give equal rights to both parents? Or do they, as some nations do, give the mother greater rights? Or do they, as other countries do, give the father paramount rights? (For example, in some Islamic nations a husband can divorce his wife almost at will.)
"Now let's further assume that at the time the father / husband took the child out of the country, there was no binding court order or custody agreement in place that provides for restrictions on the child's residence, custody, etc.
"Would not, in the absence of any binding court order or foreign law or agreement, both parties probably have equal rights to change the matrimonial home? And the child's home? Is inertia alone the basis for custody of their child? If not, what would prevent the husband / father from returning to the US and taking the child with him?
"Consider a recent case of note, Elian Gonzalez. While in that case the mother died at sea, let's assume she and Elian both survived and reached the US. Presumably she would NOT have been violating any US law, and could have gone to a Family court in the US and sought to obtain sole custody. (Whether this would have violated Cuban law, or not, is beyond me.) Clearly Elian's mother would be more likely to obtain what she regards as a favorable outcome from a US court than a Cuban court.
"And clearly Elian's father could have gone to a Cuban court for an order giving him custody. And if Elian's father was escaping Cuba with Elian, I fail to see any legal differences in the fact that he was a man rather than a woman, nor would their marital status (or lack thereof) necessarily be relevant.
"I find it difficult to distinguish between the Elian case and the one on the BBS, if my assumptions hold, and doubt that the difference is Cuba.
"We would cooperate with any court order requiring us to turn material over, but unless I may be missing something, I do not see that a crime under American law is being committed or that there is a serious danger of one being committed that would make it appropriate for us to contact the FBI or other American law enforcement agencies. I'd value your reaction.
"Gerry H. Goldsholle CEO - Advice Company Leadership in Law, http://FreeAdvice.com, and http://ExpertPages.com
---------------------------------
IAAL'S RESPONSE TO "GERRY GOLDSHOLLE, CEO OF FREEADVICE.COM CONCERNING REPORTING THE POTENTIAL CRIME OF KIDNAPPING:
"Dear Gerry:
While I understand your response, I think there may a misunderstanding as to what I was asking. I was not asking for a reply or an opinion. I was asking that this matter be reported to the authorities.
"Please understand, also, that time is of the extreme essence in this matter and I am asking that you report this intent to commit a crime to the FBI for their action.
"There is no time to debate this matter, and I respectfully request that you allow the FBI to find this man, and allow the courts to make the final determination - - I have only asked that you turn the matter over to authorities IMMEDIATELY because you have the man's I.P. address, and can trace him and the computer from where the message was sent.
"In my opinion, this matter is a criminal matter, or has the potential for being a crime, and precious time is being wasted. Once "intent" to commit a crime has been shown, we have a lawful duty to report it - not postulate on the "what ifs" or make comparisons to the Elian Gonzalez case.
"And, since YOU hold the "key" (the I.P. log number) to prevent this felony from taking place, I implore you to exercise your judgment by erring on the side of safety, assuming any error exists at all, and report this matter TODAY.
"The Gonzalez case is manifestly different from the present situation. In that case, the mother died and there was no one left to consider for prosecution for kidnapping under American law. Here, however, we have a person who is taking advantage of American law and its "protections", talking about kidnapping, and HE IS ALIVE.
"He is contemplating, or has already been, violating American law that the child, once on this soil, is entitled to as a protection under the U.S. Constitution.
"Therefore, I implore you to merely turn the information over to the F.B.I., post haste, and let them, and the courts worry about the validity of my request and your decision to open the I.P. address.
"Remember, let's err on the side of safety, the law, AND our duty as citizens to report a crime if one is perceived. Let's let the proper authorities make the decisions.
"Thank you for your anticipated, and expedited, cooperation.
Sincerely,
IAAL"
================================================
From: "Gerry Goldsholle" <[email protected]>
To: "I AM ALWAYS LIABLE"
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:20:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Father Takes Child to US
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
I understand you are very concerned and respect that. Please feel free to
report the matter to the FBI if you think a crime is being committed, or is
about to be committed.
Our basic understanding, in contrast to yours, is we have no reason to
conclude the father is about to commit any crime under American law. (While Elian's mother died, had she lived do you believe there would not have been a US prosecution for bringing her own child to this country, seeking citizenship, and depriving the father of wh
It was not until the birth that I got the chance to experience the joy and wonders of this child and to start my bonding with the child.