Unemployment Overpayment/Fraud Charges - HELP

[msmith24]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Colorado

My husband had been collecting unemployment a few years ago after losing his job. I was only working part time at the time and could only afford to pay our rent, and we fell behind on every other bill. A few months into receiving unemployment, my husband was able to find a full time job; however, it paid significantly less than his previous one. He continued to take unemployment for a short time to catch up on our bills, which we fully admit. We have been expecting an overpayment letter for quite awhile, and had a few thousand set aside to pay it in full. Unfortunately, my husband has now received a letter stating that he was overpaid $13k and had been assessed fees of $7k. It also states that he was being charged because he was working full time during some weeks of claiming unemployment (but that they would not file those charges if we paid the funds back in full.) Neither of us realized it had amounted to that much money, let alone accumulated fees! He called the office to see if he could set up arrangements or delay payment so we could get a loan or sell a vehicle, household items, whatever we could do to gather the funds. The office said no payment arrangements could be made and only gave us 3 weeks to make the payment in full. My concern now is that we cannot afford to pay back $20k in full. We applied for a personal loan but were not approved for such a high dollar amount - and even if we sell both vehicles and anything of value in our house, we would only come CLOSE to $10k.

The letter stated we needed to send payment in full or contact them to make payment arrangements. Can they truly deny us arrangement options if we cannot afford to pay them?? We desperately want to pay back the money so they don't file charges, but we have no options to do so. HELP!!!!

 

[Zigner]

Let's see if I have this right: He committed fraud and now wants to avoid the penalties, right?

If you rob a bank, do you think you'll avoid the criminal penalties because you offer to pay back the money after you're caught?

If you steal a TV from Walmart, do you think you'll avoid the criminal penalties because you offer to pay for it after you're caught?

 

[swalsh411]

The penalties for unemployment fraud are not a secret. It's also not a secret that if you attempt to defraud the system you will eventually be caught.

I would call back and try to get somebody else. If the answer is still no, then you will have to see what their next step is. I would pay anything you can now to show good faith.

P.S. 13k in overpayments is not a "short time". The maximum benefit in CO is $454 a week so 13k would be 28 weeks. That's a "short time" to you?

 

[Antigone*]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Colorado

My husband had been collecting unemployment a few years ago after losing his job. I was only working part time at the time and could only afford to pay our rent, and we fell behind on every other bill. A few months into receiving unemployment, my husband was able to find a full time job; however, it paid significantly less than his previous one. He continued to take unemployment for a short time to catch up on our bills, which we fully admit. We have been expecting an overpayment letter for quite awhile, and had a few thousand set aside to pay it in full. Unfortunately, my husband has now received a letter stating that he was overpaid $13k and had been assessed fees of $7k. It also states that he was being charged because he was working full time during some weeks of claiming unemployment (but that they would not file those charges if we paid the funds back in full.) Neither of us realized it had amounted to that much money, let alone accumulated fees! He called the office to see if he could set up arrangements or delay payment so we could get a loan or sell a vehicle, household items, whatever we could do to gather the funds. The office said no payment arrangements could be made and only gave us 3 weeks to make the payment in full. My concern now is that we cannot afford to pay back $20k in full. We applied for a personal loan but were not approved for such a high dollar amount - and even if we sell both vehicles and anything of value in our house, we would only come CLOSE to $10k.

The letter stated we needed to send payment in full or contact them to make payment arrangements. Can they truly deny us arrangement options if we cannot afford to pay them?? We desperately want to pay back the money so they don't file charges, but we have no options to do so. HELP!!!!

Hubby knew he was committing fraud. You both should consider yourselves lucky that it is only money they are after. This was a blatant crime and honestly should be treated as one.

Pay what you can and then see what happens.

 

[RedemptionMan]

and if he was not making much money then you could have claimed his earnings and still earned the difference as long as it was not over 40 percent or so of his earnings. You should have reported his earnings and not broken the law. For that much money I am sure a fraud determination will be issued and you will have to appeal. Most all states allow for forgiveness of overpayment but not in fraud situations. Sorry about your situation but you should have understood the rules better.

 

[Antigone*]

and if he was not making much money then you could have claimed his earnings and still earned the difference as long as it was not over 40 percent or so of his earnings. You should have reported his earnings and not broken the law. For that much money I am sure a fraud determination will be issued and you will have to appeal. Most all states allow for forgiveness of overpayment but not in fraud situations. Sorry about your situation but you should have understood the rules better.

RedemptionMan, it is not theat they didn't understand the rules, they believed the rules did not apply to them.

 

[Just Blue]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Colorado

My husband had been collecting unemployment a few years ago after losing his job. I was only working part time at the time and could only afford to pay our rent, and we fell behind on every other bill. A few months into receiving unemployment, my husband was able to find a full time job; however, it paid significantly less than his previous one. He continued to take unemployment for a short time to catch up on our bills, which we fully admit. We have been expecting an overpayment letter for quite awhile, and had a few thousand set aside to pay it in full. Unfortunately, my husband has now received a letter stating that he was overpaid $13k and had been assessed fees of $7k. It also states that he was being charged because he was working full time during some weeks of claiming unemployment (but that they would not file those charges if we paid the funds back in full.) Neither of us realized it had amounted to that much money, let alone accumulated fees! He called the office to see if he could set up arrangements or delay payment so we could get a loan or sell a vehicle, household items, whatever we could do to gather the funds. The office said no payment arrangements could be made and only gave us 3 weeks to make the payment in full. My concern now is that we cannot afford to pay back $20k in full. We applied for a personal loan but were not approved for such a high dollar amount - and even if we sell both vehicles and anything of value in our house, we would only come CLOSE to $10k.

The letter stated we needed to send payment in full or contact them to make payment arrangements. Can they truly deny us arrangement options if we cannot afford to pay them?? We desperately want to pay back the money so they don't file charges, but we have no options to do so. HELP!!!!

P4P...

And to say: OMG!!

 

[msmith24]

Wow. I truly thought someone would be willing to provide helpful information, or at least ANSWER the question I asked (which was whether or not they could deny payment arrangements, in case you missed that part) not just to be rude!

I UNDERSTAND he is at fault. I never once denied that. ALL i wanted to know was whether they could force an all or nothing situation on us. We attempted to make payment arrangements and were denied. Were denied partial payment. They want payment in full or nothing at all.

 

[Zigner]

Wow. I truly thought someone would be willing to provide helpful information, or at least ANSWER the question I asked (which was whether or not they could deny payment arrangements, in case you missed that part) not just to be rude!

I UNDERSTAND he is at fault. I never once denied that. ALL i wanted to know was whether they could force an all or nothing situation on us. We attempted to make payment arrangements and were denied. Were denied partial payment. They want payment in full or nothing at all.

Your question is moot. Obviously, they CAN deny the payment plan, as evidenced by the fact that they DID deny the payment plan.

That's the consequence of blatant fraud.

 

[Antigone*]

Wow. I truly thought someone would be willing to provide helpful information, or at least ANSWER the question I asked (which was whether or not they could deny payment arrangements, in case you missed that part) not just to be rude!

I UNDERSTAND he is at fault. I never once denied that. ALL i wanted to know was whether they could force an all or nothing situation on us. We attempted to make payment arrangements and were denied. Were denied partial payment. They want payment in full or nothing at all.

Of course they can deny your request but at the same time they can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. Like I said, pay what you can, they are not going to refuse to take your money.

 

[ecmst12]

However, if you can't pay, they can choose to pursue criminal penalties as well.

 

[commentator]

Commentator here. Will try to help. First of all, did you receive a letter informing your husband of the overpayment and the amount? If so, did he immediately respond to the numbers that were on the overpayment determination? Who did he talk to and what did he say. Frankly, I cannot imagine anyone in an overpayment system telling him what you say he was told. Are you real sure he called the office and they told him that no repayment arrangements could be made, that he had three weeks to come up with the money or what??? Criminal prosecution???

Are you SURE he called them after the very first communication he received telling him this overpayment had been assessed? Are you sure they said he could NOT set up a payment arrangement of some type? Really? I find this very very hard to believe. Do you have this in writing? What reason did they give for this? Had you received any previous communications which were ignored? Had you moved and changed your address, somehow missed previous communications from the overpayment section?

Your husband certainly needs to be on the telephone with them again. If he receives this decision in writing, that he must come up with it immediately, he needs to request an appeal of this decision. If he talks to someone who tells him this, he needs to talk to someone else in the department. He should meticulously explain his financial situation to them, request a waiver or at least a payment arrangement that will allow you to pay this bill off gradually. When obtaining this information, he should be very willing to work with them, able to provide full disclosure about all your salary, income, assets, etc. It is always a good idea to under estimate your ability to make monthly payments, instead of setting them at an unfeasible rate and then defaulting. In other words, it is better to set up to pay $200 a month for many months than to pay $3000 a month and then not being able to pay the monthly payments.

Everyone is being real hard on you here, but actually unemployment insurance fraud is remarkably common. It's also really really dumb, because the system cross matches and so your fraud is always discovered eventually, and yes, they knew you were doing it. If they didn't have penalties and such it would be just a snazzy little payday loan system till, as you said, you got some of your bills paid. But yes, they will catch you, and it is fraud, as you knew it was, and of course they charge penalties. But frankly, thousands of people do this all the time, and I've never heard of a system that would not at least speak with the claimant who committed the fraud and work with him, hard to believe they demanded the whole amount on the spot. Are you sure? That just doesn't sound right. As someone said, you cannot get blood out of a turnip, and it is much more prudent to try to get the money back than to jump on an opportunity to prosecute everyone who commits unemployment fraud at once. As I've said before, this would fill up all the jails in your state very quickly!

What redemption man said is confusing, and refers to "partial unemployment" which unless your husband was working very very part time, probably would never have applied. After you work a full Sunday through Saturday week, you should either stop certifying, or you report your gross earnings and let the system decide if you are eligible for any more unemployment . Quite frankly, except under certain very special circumstances, they don't give a whoop whether or not you're making less than 40% of what your former wage was. As long as your gross weekly earning for a week you worked are more than your weekly benefit amount, you are no longer eligible for benefits. And if you don't report your earnings, your employer will report them, and you'll be caught up and charged with an overpayment.

Call the overpayment unit again, or rather have your husband call again. Explain that you are very poor. Explain that you cannot come up with the total amount of the overpayment at the present time. As them for a waiver based on your income, or a payment plan. If you express willingness to work with them, this is all it should take. If for some strange reason, they decide to file criminal charges against you, at this point, you'll probably need an attorney. Until this happens, you work with them yourself and try to resolve this situation.

 

[tranquility]

While not for "fraud", at: http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/CDLE-UnempBenefits/CDLE/1251619772737

Repaying Overpayments

An overpayment occurs when unemployment benefits are paid and it is later determined that benefits should not have been paid (not eligible or entitled). You must pay these unemployment benefits back.

Some of the common causes of overpayments include:

A hearing officer’s decision reverses a previous award of benefits.
You incorrectly report information when filing for payment, and the information is corrected later.
Your wages were incorrectly reported by your employer, and they are corrected later.
The UI Program incorrectly processes your claim, and it is corrected later.

If you cannot repay the entire amount immediately, ask us if you can set up a repayment plan.

Unemployment Insurance Integrity
Benefit Payment Control
303-318-9035 (Denver-metro area)
1-877-464-4622 (outside Denver-metro area)

If you continue to be eligible for payment, we may be able to give you a reduced payment until the overpayment is paid.

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/CDLE-UnempBenefits/CDLE/1251567061165

In most circumstances, Benefit Payment Control (BPC) will work with you to establish a repayment agreement. If you respond to the initial request for payment but cannot pay the total amount due, you may enter into a repayment agreement to pay back the overpayment amount in monthly installments. Repayment agreements may be scheduled for up to 36 months. The monthly payment amount is based on the overpayment amount and the number of months scheduled for the repayment. The amount paid cannot be less than $75 a month. Overpayments that are established as a result of fraud are scheduled on a 24-month repayment plan. Contact BPC for more information about a repayment agreement.


If you respond to the initial request for payment and negotiate a repayment agreement with BPC, no interest or fees will be assessed on the amount due. If you fail to respond to the initial request for payment and the account becomes delinquent, the overpayment is transferred to the state’s collection agency, Central Collection Services (CCS).


CCS can assess interest and fees, report delinquent accounts to the credit-reporting agencies, initiate civil prosecution, and seize state income-tax refunds.

But also:
http://www.rmlawyers.com/blog/2013/04/employees-beware-colorado-unemployment-benefits-fraud-has-severe-consequences.shtml

 

[commentator]

Yes, I found all this info too. All I can figure out is that this claimant must have refused to acknowledge prior contacts and have been handed over to the collections agency at this time. And since it is a fraud overpayment, no flat out waiver based on income is going to be available to them. But everything I see says they will work with you to set up payment plans and are, as all overpayment units are, more interested in getting back the money than in filling up the jails. There's no reason we know yet why Colorado BPC would choose this particular person to prosecute with no leniency and no willingness to work with him at all. If we're getting the whole story, it shouldn't be happening this way. Yes, they have tightened up the Colorado laws, and are more vigorously enforcing fraud collections. But that "employees beware" post is put out by a group of attorneys who seem to feel that they can represent you and get your overpayment reduced. That isn't the case. As I said, I do not believe you need an attorney until you are being prosecuted in criminal court for this fraud. Unlike court proceedings, these agency procedings do not work better if you are represented by an attorney, and you have very little negotiation room or appeal room except HOW you will pay them back.

It would've been a real good idea for these people to go on and call BPC and offer to begin paying the money back before they were caught. But then, it would've been an even better idea not to have ever done it in the first place. Water over the dam. Many people believe they are getting unemployment benefits because they are needy, and since they are not doing as well as they had been before they lost their good job, they can continue to use the benefits to help them get on their feet even after they have to returned to work. Not the case, and they knew better. But that is still not to say they should be prosecuted. Because as I said, on the scale of criminal behavior which needs to be vigorously prosecuted, this isn't very high.

 

[tranquility]

Yes, I found all this info too. All I can figure out is that this claimant must have refused to acknowledge prior contacts and have been handed over to the collections agency at this time. And since it is a fraud overpayment, no flat out waiver based on income is going to be available to them. But everything I see says they will work with you to set up payment plans and are, as all overpayment units are, more interested in getting back the money than in filling up the jails. There's no reason we know yet why Colorado BPC would choose this particular person to prosecute with no leniency and no willingness to work with him at all. If we're getting the whole story, it shouldn't be happening this way.

I was agreeing with you. However,this was clearly fraud and not a mere re-determination. That means the amount needs to be paid back in 24 months. (Assuming a deal is made.) Using the guidelines and not adding in any additional interest, that is over $800 a month. Because fees were included, we must assume they ignored the first demand. As to jail, $13K is a lot of government cheese. While there is certainly a lot of unemployment fraud out there, wouldn't that put the OP's husband in the upper tier of violators?

As to the attorney, like with taxes and potential evasion, it is better to have a mouthpiece talk to The Man. Not only do they know what not to say, we don't want anything said to be used against you and all that.