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3 Misdeamnor; Request extention and Trail by Declaration?

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CdwJava

Senior Member
Hello everyone,

I seem to have cause a stir and that was not my intention. And I never said the quotas was the reasons why I'm fighting my ticket. It was merely a statement saying policy officer makes more money than people think. That is all. I did not state he didn't deserve that amount nor that my reason to fight this unjust ticket. Nor did I whine about my tax dollar to supplement his income.

If you read what I had written aside from his salary that the ticket I received claimed I STOP on the railroad. According to the violations, as long I'm cautious and there was is no indication of any hazard.
The sections you allegedly violated don't require a "hazard." They require that you failed to properly stop for a red light (VC 21453(a)), you failed to obey a regulatory device or sign (VC 21461(a)), and you failed to stop as required for a railroad crossing (VC 2451(a)). You can go to court and allege that you DID stop, obey the signs, and stop 15 feet away and did not proceed across the track until it was safe to do so. You will have your say, the officer will have his, and the judge will render a decision.

If you lose, it is likely that you will not be permitted to take traffic school, but, TS is still possible even if you lose at trial. You also have the option to seek a trial by written declaration first, and THEN seek a new trial (trial de novo) should you lose.

Oh, and was YOU that brought up the salary issue. If not to try and make a claim that the officer was somehow making bank on writing citations and thus implying he has a motive to lie, why, then, bring up what he might make?
 


TigerD

Senior Member
For the OP: If you want to fight this ticket, you are going to need an attorney. Not that an attorney is always needed to fight traffic tickets, but that you, personally, are not capable of handling this.

DC
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Um...lots of them?

http://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=police+officer
Hardly standard salaries for agencies outside of the Bay Area and the LA Basin. With time and sufficient training and educational incentives in the right agency, sure.

Oh, and that site ... uh ... it's not always right. They have mine all wrong, and this has been a frequent source of amusement for many officers I know as it appears they often add either overtime and/or benefits into the base wages.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
Hardly standard salaries for agencies outside of the Bay Area and the LA Basin. With time and sufficient training and educational incentives in the right agency, sure.

Oh, and that site ... uh ... it's not always right. They have mine all wrong, and this has been a frequent source of amusement for many officers I know as it appears they often add either overtime and/or benefits into the base wages.
No, they try to take them out. For something more official that comes up with similar results:

http://publicpay.ca.gov/Reports/SearchNew.aspx?search=police+officer

Now, as what what is "standard", you do recognize there are a LOT of police officers in the Bay area and LA Basin, right? And, while I am no geographical wizz, "I live in southern California and the ticket from San Gabriel Valley." seems like it could just be in that there LA Basin you're talking about.

Don't get me started on "quotas". They have been illegal for a long time, agreed. Let me know of a supervisor who does not know which of his officers is writing the most tickets.
 

fightthisticket

Junior Member
The sections you allegedly violated don't require a "hazard." They require that you failed to properly stop for a red light (VC 21453(a)), you failed to obey a regulatory device or sign (VC 21461(a)), and you failed to stop as required for a railroad crossing (VC 2451(a)). You can go to court and allege that you DID stop, obey the signs, and stop 15 feet away and did not proceed across the track until it was safe to do so. You will have your say, the officer will have his, and the judge will render a decision.

If you lose, it is likely that you will not be permitted to take traffic school, but, TS is still possible even if you lose at trial. You also have the option to seek a trial by written declaration first, and THEN seek a new trial (trial de novo) should you lose.

Oh, and was YOU that brought up the salary issue. If not to try and make a claim that the officer was somehow making bank on writing citations and thus implying he has a motive to lie, why, then, bring up what he might make?
Hi CdwJava,

Thank you for clarifying this point for me and pointing out the flaw in my argument for the case. I am definitely thinking of opting for a Trial by Written declaration but the pitfall is I would have to pay upfront which I am not financially in a position to. Would it be more wise to request a 60 day delayed hoping it would be near the holidays OR 60 days request and use that time to write a trial by written declaration?

As for the salary, the only reason I bought it up is because it show up in one of my google search and honestly just surprised by the salary. http://www.california.salarydatabase.com/local/san-gabriel/2012/employee/just-james/ Not necessary it was accurate data but often hearing people cops are underpaid I just expected a lower salary. That is all and not implying anything.

Again thank you for your imput. I greatly appreciate it. :)
 

fightthisticket

Junior Member
For the OP: If you want to fight this ticket, you are going to need an attorney. Not that an attorney is always needed to fight traffic tickets, but that you, personally, are not capable of handling this.

DC
Hi DC,

I would like to hear more of your direct input. When you say personally do you mean based on how I have written on this forum so far? Or is it because this case is particular? As I never hire a lawyer of any sort what are the benefits? Given my writing is not the best portrayal of me, I do plan on doing my research extensively and have my lawyer friends help me with the linguistic.
 
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CdwJava

Senior Member
No, they try to take them out. For something more official that comes up with similar results:

http://publicpay.ca.gov/Reports/SearchNew.aspx?search=police+officer
"Try" is different than "do."

I believe I know my own salary, and the officers I know that look at it also find their salaries skewed. It's far from accurate. The gov. one is more accurate, but even that has errors and does not have ours correct.

Now, as what what is "standard", you do recognize there are a LOT of police officers in the Bay area and LA Basin, right? And, while I am no geographical wizz, "I live in southern California and the ticket from San Gabriel Valley." seems like it could just be in that there LA Basin you're talking about.
And, if you look at the starting, average, and even max. pay rates, you will find that many of them do not reach $73,000. Those that do don't get there until near the end of their careers.

Don't get me started on "quotas". They have been illegal for a long time, agreed. Let me know of a supervisor who does not know which of his officers is writing the most tickets.
Okay ... I know which officer writes the most tickets, sure. And, since we don't have a quota, s/he can write as many as s/he chooses.
 
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CdwJava

Senior Member
Hi CdwJava,

Thank you for clarifying this point for me and pointing out the flaw in my argument for the case. I am definitely thinking of opting for a Trial by Written declaration but the pitfall is I would have to pay upfront which I am not financially in a position to. Would it be more wise to request a 60 day delayed hoping it would be near the holidays OR 60 days request and use that time to write a trial by written declaration?

As for the salary, the only reason I bought it up is because it show up in one of my google search and honestly just surprised by the salary. http://www.california.salarydatabase.com/local/san-gabriel/2012/employee/just-james/ Not necessary it was accurate data but often hearing people cops are underpaid I just expected a lower salary. That is all and not implying anything.

Again thank you for your imput. I greatly appreciate it. :)
Salaries vary by region. Along the coast, salaries tend to be higher as they are in major metropolitan areas that demand higher wages in order to be competitive. But, most those salaries are not high enough to allow those officers a good living within those communities, so many of them commute and hour or more from other locales further inland as the cost of living tends to be lower. This is also why most major cities do not have a police force that is comprised of residents.

When you get away from the coast, salaries plummet. That $73,000 figure is 50%+ higher than the top step of many of the agencies in the north state, and 25%+ higher than many in the central valley. So, while officers tend to get paid a decent wage, it's not always sufficient to live on in the more metropolitan communities. In fact, in my part of the state, officers with three or more children can and often are eligible for public assistance (as a note, as the second highest paid police officer in my agency, I was eligible for public assistance for my first three years here ... we didn't use it, but, we were eligible).

Though, when mentioning wages for what law enforcement does, how much would you want in order to do what we are called upon to do? Some say we get paid too much, others say, too little. I say we often don't get paid enough, but, I knew the wages going in and still chose to do it. But, given the current political climate and changes to wages and benefits that are being imposed, I will likely be retired in the next year (or sooner). Net wages have actually gone down in recent years as taxes have gone up, benefits and retirements costs have risen, public employees have been asked to take pay cuts to balance budgets, etc. My net base income has dropped about 11% over the past three years and will likely drop another 5-10% in two years when our contract expires (or more if pending legislation at the state level passes) ... so, when you take that into account, no, we don't get paid enough. ... But, I digress ...

As for a TBWD, there is a time limit on that so you might want to apply for that ASAP - and it may mean having to pony up the fines ahead of time. As for delaying the trial, the officer will get subpoeaned no matter the date you choose. He is no more or less likely to attend later in the year than he sooner. Keep in mind that the nature of shift work is such that we don't tend to get away for Holidays.

You should also consider seeking the officer's notes in discovery so that you have some idea of what the officer might testify to. What did HE see? You may well be delaying the inevitable. But, if all you have is a shot in the dark, what the heck? But, if you lose at trial, you might also lose the traffic school option and also have to pay an increase in auto insurance. That's a consideration as well.
 

fightthisticket

Junior Member
Here is a photo

You were charged with failing to stop behind the limit line at a red light.
Yes, that was one of the charges. I attached a google map photo to better explain this as I am still finding the right words to explain without the confusion.

It seem I cannot attach a photo but here is flicker link.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128168993@N08/15604525885/
 

TigerD

Senior Member
Hi DC,

I would like to hear more of your direct input. When you say personally do you mean based on how I have written on this forum so far? Or is it because this case is particular? As I never hire a lawyer of any sort what are the benefits? Given my writing is portraying me accurately, I do plan on doing my research extensively and have my lawyer friends help me with the linguistic.
Yes. Based on your posts, you are not going to be able to find the issues and stay on topic. The officer's pay has nothing to do with whether or not you committed the violation.

"Given my writing is portraying me accurately, I do plan on doing my research extensively and have my lawyer friends help me with the linguistic." Your writing is portraying you accurately and I don't think you understand the meaning of many of the words you use. That is critical in reading and understanding law. The tickets you referenced have pretty hefty fines. Hiring a lawyer may save you money on fines and money by avoiding the higher insurance rates. (Also, lawyer get better plea deals than pro se defendants.)

DC
 

tranquility

Senior Member
"Try" is different than "do."
I have data and you have anecdotal evidence. I know what I will rely upon.

I believe I know my own salary, and the officers I know that look at it also find their salaries skewed. It's far from accurate. The gov. one is more accurate, but even that has errors and does not have ours correct.
So? You made a choice to move to a smaller town and accept the financial cost with the other benefits with that. That hardly counts. I know many cops where I live (Heck, have many tax clients who are cops.) and the "???" you put to the number the OP supplied is ridiculous. Ri-dic-u-lous. LOTS of cops make that. Lots and lots and lots. Arguing about the minuate of data is hardly productive.

And, if you look at the starting, average, and even max. pay rates, you will find that many of them do not reach $73,000. Those that do don't get there until near the end of their careers
Maybe where you are, but not everywhere. $73k is not only for the top end-of-career patrol officers. You know that. Why is this a debate at all? How much data do you want? How many department salaries do I need to provide?

Okay ... I know which officer writes the most tickets, sure. And, since we don't have a quota, s/he can write as many as s/he chooses.
Sure. We see the news articles all the time of the advancement of the cop who wrote the most accident reports. Now, I would be astonished for an officer to admit the department is doing something illegal, so we shall not call the looking at production "quotas" (Under a legal definition.), we shall call them...guidelines (LAPD) or goals (Paso Robles). Now, they lost millions calling them that, but, I'm sure no other officer is measured by his production or asked why, on an 8-10 hour shift, he is not writing as many tickets as his brethren.
 

fightthisticket

Junior Member
Salaries vary by region. Along the coast, salaries tend to be higher as they are in major metropolitan areas that demand higher wages in order to be competitive. But, most those salaries are not high enough to allow those officers a good living within those communities, so many of them commute and hour or more from other locales further inland as the cost of living tends to be lower. This is also why most major cities do not have a police force that is comprised of residents.

When you get away from the coast, salaries plummet. That $73,000 figure is 50%+ higher than the top step of many of the agencies in the north state, and 25%+ higher than many in the central valley. So, while officers tend to get paid a decent wage, it's not always sufficient to live on in the more metropolitan communities. In fact, in my part of the state, officers with three or more children can and often are eligible for public assistance (as a note, as the second highest paid police officer in my agency, I was eligible for public assistance for my first three years here ... we didn't use it, but, we were eligible).

Though, when mentioning wages for what law enforcement does, how much would you want in order to do what we are called upon to do? Some say we get paid too much, others say, too little. I say we often don't get paid enough, but, I knew the wages going in and still chose to do it. But, given the current political climate and changes to wages and benefits that are being imposed, I will likely be retired in the next year (or sooner). Net wages have actually gone down in recent years as taxes have gone up, benefits and retirements costs have risen, public employees have been asked to take pay cuts to balance budgets, etc. My net base income has dropped about 11% over the past three years and will likely drop another 5-10% in two years when our contract expires (or more if pending legislation at the state level passes) ... so, when you take that into account, no, we don't get paid enough. ... But, I digress ...

As for a TBWD, there is a time limit on that so you might want to apply for that ASAP - and it may mean having to pony up the fines ahead of time. As for delaying the trial, the officer will get subpoeaned no matter the date you choose. He is no more or less likely to attend later in the year than he sooner. Keep in mind that the nature of shift work is such that we don't tend to get away for Holidays.

You should also consider seeking the officer's notes in discovery so that you have some idea of what the officer might testify to. What did HE see? You may well be delaying the inevitable. But, if all you have is a shot in the dark, what the heck? But, if you lose at trial, you might also lose the traffic school option and also have to pay an increase in auto insurance. That's a consideration as well.
I agree with you and on the whole people in the front line are underpaid with all the budget cuts it has a trickle effect. I have friend who work for the government in various area teacher, court, parole, admin, and their paid is not sufficient and requires constant budgeting. I am sorry to hear about the cuts.

When I wrote that I was not trying to offend anyone who work in the line of duty who chose to protect and serve the citizen of the community. As I don't know much about the police enforcement I made a naive comment. Again I apologize to everyone if I had offended or undermine your work. I do wish the office didn't chose to give me 3 different violations to me and another car next to me that night. :( The ticket he gave me asked that I must show up to court in November and traffic division is check as well?

Now reading all this information I'm at a draw about what are my best chances. How do I go about seeking the officer's note in discovery? Can this be done before court or it's only for trial by declaration?

I've included a photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/128168993@N08/15604525885/ as well.
 

fightthisticket

Junior Member
Yes. Based on your posts, you are not going to be able to find the issues and stay on topic. The officer's pay has nothing to do with whether or not you committed the violation.

"Given my writing is portraying me accurately, I do plan on doing my research extensively and have my lawyer friends help me with the linguistic." Your writing is portraying you accurately and I don't think you understand the meaning of many of the words you use. That is critical in reading and understanding law. The tickets you referenced have pretty hefty fines. Hiring a lawyer may save you money on fines and money by avoiding the higher insurance rates. (Also, lawyer get better plea deals than pro se defendants.)

DC
Thank you for the tips and I realized my grammar and typos are not the greatest. FYI, the officer's salary was not part of my argument it was off tangent remark. I did not realize I was already on court was just seeking advice. Thank you and I will look into a traffic lawyer.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
I have data and you have anecdotal evidence. I know what I will rely upon.
And, the data is flawed. Not correct. We look at it every year, and I doubt it's just the officers in my county and the surrounding counties whose "data" is wrong. It is a source of some amusement.

Maybe where you are, but not everywhere. $73k is not only for the top end-of-career patrol officers. You know that. Why is this a debate at all? How much data do you want? How many department salaries do I need to provide?
Please point out where I said that this was the top end everywhere ... I'll wait. But, look at the actual advertised salaries for most agencies and you will find that $73,000 is greater that a PO I in LAPD. Top step PO I is nearly $65,000 ... so, yeah, $73,000 is high. You have to PROMOTE to break into PO II. Now, in the Bay Area, you WILL get officer salaries that will exceed that. But, those agencies (such as Santa Clara PD and Los Gatos) are not representative of the state outside that high-income high cost of living realm.

So, $73,000 is outside the norm - or, at the very least, above average for most of the state.

Sure. We see the news articles all the time of the advancement of the cop who wrote the most accident reports.
Huh ... it hasn't done me much good. But, okay, officers that do their job and do them well tend to get promoted. Not necessarily because they are out jacking up the citizens, but because they aren't sitting on their duffs at the donut shop or Denny's, but out doing their job and making effective use of their discretionary time.

Now, I would be astonished for an officer to admit the department is doing something illegal, so we shall not call the looking at production "quotas" (Under a legal definition.), we shall call them...guidelines (LAPD) or goals (Paso Robles).
And, when these goals and guidelines result in poor evaluations or other forms of discipline, these agencies get called on them (Redwood City and Oceanside, to name two) by the employees as well as the community and the defense bar.

An officer is expected to do his job. Any agency that holds any form of a quota system is not doing their officers any good nor the community, and thus it is not a common practice no matter the buzz words some supervisors might try to conceal it with.

Now, they lost millions calling them that, but, I'm sure no other officer is measured by his production or asked why, on an 8-10 hour shift, he is not writing as many tickets as his brethren.
If an officer is making fewer ped contacts, stops, or other activity on discretionary time, of course a supservisor should be asking, "Why?" An officer NOT doing his job should be kicked in the butt. But, to set even a variable number "X" - even calling ti a department "goal" or "objective" is still a quota.
 
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