Can My Mother-in-Law Get Custody of My Children?

[PA_Mom]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law) Pennsylvania

Hello all Nice to meet you. Here's my back story:


My fiance and I (we're not married yet) have created two children together (ages 2 1/2 and 8 months). We moved from California to Pennysvania because my fiance's mother offered to give us a house. When we arrived here, it turned out that she didn't want to give us the house, but instead decided to 'rent' it to us. First they tried to get us to sign a renters agreement, and we refused (we came on the context that there were no strings attached). Two weeks ago they sent us the following email:

"Congratulations on being a PA resident for one year as of last week. As you know for one year we have paid all taxes and insurance for the xxx xxxxx home so that you may be able to get on your feet. The taxes consist of xxx County Taxes ($1030.60), xxx Township taxes ($385.63), xxxx Township School District taxes ($5,450.13), and State Farm Insurance ($846.00). The total for the year under the current rates comes to $6,019.00 ($501.00 per month). We know you appreciate us paying these for you up until now.

As you recall our agreement with you was that you would pay the taxes and insurance. We would like you to begin paying the monthly rate of $501.00 to us on Aug 1, 2010 and continue paying the first of each month going forward. That will cover the cost of the taxes and insurance.

Thank you. Please let me know if you have any questions. "


Although we agreed to pay the house taxes, it was under the agreement that the house was to be ours, so we would cover its expenses (including maintanence, taxes, etc... because that's what a home owner does) Up till March, they paid for the taxes and utilities on the house (minus phone and internet) while my fiance worked at a variety of minimum wage jobs while trying to secure steady employment. Thankfully, he recently got a job that could support our family - but now we're concerned that if we don't comply to his mother and step-father's wishes, they will try to take custody of our children on the grounds that they've helped support us for the last 8 months. If that is the case, I would fly back to california tomorrow to stay with family so that they cannot take our children away. The questions:

Here's the questions:

1) Can the grandparents successfuly sue for custody of our children in PA? (we pay all our utilities now, and starting August, will be paying them $501 dollars to cover the taxes. (neither fiance or I has any criminal record, our children are well taken care of)

2) If we pay the $501 to them, can the grandparents claim we entered a legal contract with them (on the basis of the email they sent sent) and therefore be financially 'trapped' here in this house in PA, giving them the ability to claim we owe them money and can't leave till we pay?

Further note: My fiance is concerned about this because he had a co-worker who lost a child in PA to grandparental custody. And at the time, the coworker was able to support himself and living on his own- he wanted to make sure that didn't happen to us

Thank you in advance for any answers you can provide

 

[Antigone*]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law) Pennsylvania

Hello all Nice to meet you. Here's my back story:


My fiance and I (we're not married yet) have created two children together (ages 2 1/2 and 8 months). We moved from California to Pennysvania because my fiance's mother offered to give us a house. When we arrived here, it turned out that she didn't want to give us the house, but instead decided to 'rent' it to us. First they tried to get us to sign a renters agreement, and we refused (we came on the context that there were no strings attached). Two weeks ago they sent us the following email:

"Congratulations on being a PA resident for one year as of last week. As you know for one year we have paid all taxes and insurance for the xxx xxxxx home so that you may be able to get on your feet. The taxes consist of xxx County Taxes ($1030.60), xxx Township taxes ($385.63), xxxx Township School District taxes ($5,450.13), and State Farm Insurance ($846.00). The total for the year under the current rates comes to $6,019.00 ($501.00 per month). We know you appreciate us paying these for you up until now.

As you recall our agreement with you was that you would pay the taxes and insurance. We would like you to begin paying the monthly rate of $501.00 to us on Aug 1, 2010 and continue paying the first of each month going forward. That will cover the cost of the taxes and insurance.

Thank you. Please let me know if you have any questions. "


Although we agreed to pay the house taxes, it was under the agreement that the house was to be ours, so we would cover its expenses (including maintanence, taxes, etc... because that's what a home owner does) Up till March, they paid for the taxes and utilities on the house (minus phone and internet) while my fiance worked at a variety of minimum wage jobs while trying to secure steady employment. Thankfully, he recently got a job that could support our family - but now we're concerned that if we don't comply to his mother and step-father's wishes, they will try to take custody of our children on the grounds that they've helped support us for the last 8 months. If that is the case, I would fly back to california tomorrow to stay with family so that they cannot take our children away. The questions:

Here's the questions:

1) Can the grandparents successfuly sue for custody of our children in PA? (we pay all our utilities now, and starting August, will be paying them $501 dollars to cover the taxes. (neither fiance or I has any criminal record, our children are well taken care of)

2) If we pay the $501 to them, can the grandparents claim we entered a legal contract with them (on the basis of the email they sent sent) and therefore be financially 'trapped' here in this house in PA, giving them the ability to claim we owe them money and can't leave till we pay?

Further note: My fiance is concerned about this because he had a co-worker who lost a child in PA to grandparental custody. And at the time, the coworker was able to support himself and living on his own- he wanted to make sure that didn't happen to us

Thank you in advance for any answers you can provide

You owing this woman (she is not your MIL - you are not married to her son) has nothing to do at all with the custody of your children. Either pay her what you owe her or find another place to live.

Don't agree to any type of visitation with her. If she wants to see the kids, make sure it happens at your residence with you there.

 

[PA_Mom]

Antigone, thank you for your response,

"You owing this woman (she is not your MIL - you are not married to her son) has nothing to do at all with the custody of your children. Either pay her what you owe her or find another place to live.

"

You're right, I've gotten into the habit of referring to my fiance as husband and his mother as MIL - we would like to get married but we're waiting on something- but that's another story.

As far as owing her money... we don't. We never signed an agreement - or even agreed to pay retroactively. The payments they made on the house for us were termed as "helping us out till we're on our feet" with no mention of loan or having to pay it back. A big part of the reason they're so generous is because my fiance and I have family only in California.. they're the only family or friends we have on the East coast, so we feel a bit isolated. They want to see their grandkids now that they're retiring, so their answer was to invite us to move over here on a sweet deal.

What we're trying to figure out: If we move out and find another place to live in PA, couldn't they fight for custody? According to a site I read, PA grandparents can fight for partial custody if the parents are not legally married... Otherwise we're hightailing it back to California.

Don't agree to any type of visitation with her. If she wants to see the kids, make sure it happens at your residence with you there.

I'm not anymore - but for the last few months, every other week my fiance's mother had my oldest visit her and stay at her house- sometimes over night. There was not a set agreement, she would just ask if she could spend the night, and we said sure. This concerns me greatly - couldn't she use that as part of her argument to have custody?

 

[mistoffolees]

1) Can the grandparents successfuly sue for custody of our children in PA? (we pay all our utilities now, and starting August, will be paying them $501 dollars to cover the taxes. (neither fiance or I has any criminal record, our children are well taken care of)

2) If we pay the $501 to them, can the grandparents claim we entered a legal contract with them (on the basis of the email they sent sent) and therefore be financially 'trapped' here in this house in PA, giving them the ability to claim we owe them money and can't leave till we pay?

Further note: My fiance is concerned about this because he had a co-worker who lost a child in PA to grandparental custody. And at the time, the coworker was able to support himself and living on his own- he wanted to make sure that didn't happen to us

Thank you in advance for any answers you can provide

1. On what grounds? If both parents are unfit, the grandparents can sometimes obtain custody. Is she going to be able to prove that you're unfit? It will require real evidence.

2. Keep in mind that real estate transactions are only valid if in writing. Did you agree in writing to pay the taxes? Did she make any promises in writing?

If it were me, I'd move out and find a place to live free from meddling parents. I'd also seriously think about your relationship with the guy. If he lets his mother walk all over him like that now, what do you think will happen after you're married?

However, if all you're being asked to pay is $501 per month - that's a lot less than rent would be. You might decide it's worthwhile to put up with their BS. Just ask an attorney to look over anything before you sign it. I would also strongly suggest that all of you meet to make sure there are no more misunderstandings before you decide to stay.

Final comment - since you're not married, your situation is complex. Your bf would need to have paternity established. I would suggest getting that done now. If something happens to you, he could face a CPS nightmare to get his kids back. You should also make sure that you have wills and appropriate insurance.

 

[milspecgirl]

You need to learn to assert your independence right now. Move out of that house. Either go back to Ca, find another house, move to Idaho, whatever. But, you do not need to be in a situation where you feel they hold any power over you (whether they legally do or not)

grandparents are not going to get custody of your kids just cause they've been helping you all out. Right now- without his paternity established- they aren't even legally the grandparents.

Time to back away from this woman and make sure she understands that she is not going to control. Nip it in the bud, cause it's only gonna get worse.

 

[PA_Mom]

Thank you everyone for all your input The question is not independence.... we're leaving this house. The question is: can we be residents of PA and not have to worry about our children being taken away, or do we have to go all the way back to california to protect them?

If it were me, I'd move out and find a place to live free from meddling parents. I'd also seriously think about your relationship with the guy. If he lets his mother walk all over him like that now, what do you think will happen after you're married?

There's nothing in writing, except for the email that was sent - and we have not responded to it. I appreciate your comment coming from the point that you do not have full information: My fiancé is a wonderful man, and does not let his mother walk all over him, which is why we're having increasingly tense relations with his mother - and therefore are worried she will do something childish like file for custody of the children.

We want to move out now. Before we moved we already had an apartment of our own - we trusted the 'no strings attached' and thought living in PA would be safer and nicer for our children. We both work and can support ourselves wherever we go.

You need to learn to assert your independence right now. Move out of that house. Either go back to Ca, find another house, move to Idaho, whatever. But, you do not need to be in a situation where you feel they hold any power over you (whether they legally do or not)

grandparents are not going to get custody of your kids just cause they've been helping you all out. Right now- without his paternity established- they aren't even legally the grandparents.

I agree - and that's why I'm asking. We would either relocate to another home around here so he could continue working at his current job - or we would leave now to California (I own an online business that I can manage from anywhere, so we'd be fine)

It would be optimal for us to relocate out of their prying grasp - BUT we want to know if they can try to get custody while we're here in PA.

Also - he does have parental custody, when both of our daughters were born, he signed the paternity paper.


I'd like to mention my fiance and I would marry this second today. Unfortunately we have some legal issues that need to be resolved. I don't know if we should report our lawyer to the bar- but we paid him $2,400 dollars and 3 years later this legal issue still hasn't been resolved. From what I understand all he has to do is file a judgement.... and he is simply too busy?? Can't get a hold of him, just his secretary. But thats another story.

 

[LdiJ]

Thank you everyone for all your input The question is not independence.... we're leaving this house. The question is: can we be residents of PA and not have to worry about our children being taken away, or do we have to go all the way back to california to protect them?



There's nothing in writing, except for the email that was sent - and we have not responded to it. I appreciate your comment coming from the point that you do not have full information: My fiancé is a wonderful man, and does not let his mother walk all over him, which is why we're having increasingly tense relations with his mother - and therefore are worried she will do something childish like file for custody of the children.

We want to move out now. Before we moved we already had an apartment of our own - we trusted the 'no strings attached' and thought living in PA would be safer and nicer for our children. We both work and can support ourselves wherever we go.



I agree - and that's why I'm asking. We would either relocate to another home around here so he could continue working at his current job - or we would leave now to California (I own an online business that I can manage from anywhere, so we'd be fine)

It would be optimal for us to relocate out of their prying grasp - BUT we want to know if they can try to get custody while we're here in PA.

Also - he does have parental custody, when both of our daughters were born, he signed the paternity paper.


I'd like to mention my fiance and I would marry this second today. Unfortunately we have some legal issues that need to be resolved. I don't know if we should report our lawyer to the bar- but we paid him $2,400 dollars and 3 years later this legal issue still hasn't been resolved. From what I understand all he has to do is file a judgement.... and he is simply too busy?? Can't get a hold of him, just his secretary. But thats another story.

I think that you are safe from them getting the kind of custody where the children live with them. Unfortunately, PA is notorious for being grandparent friendly and giving grandparents visitation orders, which they call partial custody.

Me?, if I were living in PA and was dealing with a grandparent who was being difficult, I would hightail it the heck out of PA as fast as possible, and would not leave a forwarding address.

 

[PA_Mom]

I think that you are safe from them getting the kind of custody where the children live with them. Unfortunately, PA is notorious for being grandparent friendly and giving grandparents visitation orders, which they call partial custody.

Me?, if I were living in PA and was dealing with a grandparent who was being difficult, I would hightail it the heck out of PA as fast as possible, and would not leave a forwarding address.

That's what I was wondering... and having even partial visitation might hamper our need to move out.

I believe I have my answer now - thank you again to everyone to answered and thank you LdiJ for your targeted answer

 

[Isis1]

That's what I was wondering... and having even partial visitation might hamper our need to move out.

I believe I have my answer now - thank you again to everyone to answered and thank you LdiJ for your targeted answer

I've got to agree with LD on this. PA scares the living daylights out of me when it comes to grandparents and visitation. The way this woman sounds now, from your post, i'd already be packed.

However, having a rental agreement is a good thing. So i don't see that as a negative. So i have to ask, did they threaten to sue for custody, or is this just a fear?

 

[ecmst12]

I don't see a single thing that would give potential grandma any justification whatsoever to ask for custody. And even though they are not married, this is an intact family. The fact that you were living in a house she owned means nothing, she wasn't living there with you. I think the amount she is asking for rent from you is more then fair, BTW.

Also, getting married in PA is absurdly cheap and easy, if all you want is a legal piece of paper. Look up quaker marriage licenses.

But generally, worry less. Enjoy your family more. And look for your own place

 

[LdiJ]

I don't see a single thing that would give potential grandma any justification whatsoever to ask for custody. And even though they are not married, this is an intact family. The fact that you were living in a house she owned means nothing, she wasn't living there with you. I think the amount she is asking for rent from you is more then fair, BTW.

Also, getting married in PA is absurdly cheap and easy, if all you want is a legal piece of paper. Look up quaker marriage licenses.

But generally, worry less. Enjoy your family more. And look for your own place

I think that if you had ever had to deal with a gp case in PA, or watched someone close to you deal with one in PA, that you would have a different outlook on this.

 

[mistoffolees]

I think that if you had ever had to deal with a gp case in PA, or watched someone close to you deal with one in PA, that you would have a different outlook on this.

There are really two different issues.

The grandparents are extremely unlikely to get custody:
Grandparents' Rights for Custody in Pennsylvania

Visitation is a little different.
IN A DIVORCE, grandparents can get visitation:
Grandparent Visitation Rights in a Pennsylvania Divorce

A separate document states that the grandparents can't even ask for court-ordered visitation unless the parents are deceased or divorced or the child has lived with the grandparents for a year:
http://www.lasp.org/file/grandparents-rights-in-pennsylvania.pdf

I would certainly talk with a local attorney, but it's hard to believe that the courts are going to overrule both parents if the parents want to deny visits with the grandparents - even in PA.

 

[LdiJ]

There are really two different issues.

The grandparents are extremely unlikely to get custody:
Grandparents' Rights for Custody in Pennsylvania

Visitation is a little different.
IN A DIVORCE, grandparents can get visitation:
Grandparent Visitation Rights in a Pennsylvania Divorce

A separate document states that the grandparents can't even ask for court-ordered visitation unless the parents are deceased or divorced or the child has lived with the grandparents for a year:
http://www.lasp.org/file/grandparents-rights-in-pennsylvania.pdf

I would certainly talk with a local attorney, but it's hard to believe that the courts are going to overrule both parents if the parents want to deny visits with the grandparents - even in PA.

Misto, I have been part of a large scale organization that helps parents fight grandparent visitation suits. The way that the laws are written in PA, even parents in intact families are not completely safe from gpv suits (and PA calls them partial custody suits rather than gpv suits and allows the grandparents to act as if they have partial custody). Even though both parents would probably be opposed to gpv in this case they are not married, and in an unwed situation the grandparents WOULD have standing.

You are correct for most other states in the country. Only PA and NY are states where grandparents can gain legal visitation rights against the will of two, fit, parents. NY is actually the worst. At first glance the NY law looks very parent "friendly" but then at the end, there is the constant phrase, "or when equity sees fit to intervene", which basically allows judges to decide however they want, irregardless of the way rest of the law reads.

Prior to Troxel vs Granville, which the USSC decided in June of 2000, almost all states were as bad as PA and NY. You wouldn't believe the hundreds of horror stories I could tell you about gpv cases...and far more than 50% of the custodial parents who dealt with those horror stories were custodial dads.

The worst however, in my mind, is the mother who was ordered to jail in KY, because she refused to obey court ordered visitation for the bio grandparent of the child she adopted as a stranger adoption. She died in jail because the jailers refused her, her heart medication. She could have lived to a ripe old age. Her problems were completely under control with medication, but she died because an azzhole judge decided she needed to go to jail for refusing visitation for a biological grandparent in a stranger adoption...and because of the stupid rule that prisoners couldn't be given their own medication that they brought with them.

So Misto, don't apply the logic that you are so expert at to gpv cases in PA or NY. I could tell you dozens of horror stories regarding PA alone.

If you lived in PA and your ex wife passed away, leaving you with sole custody, would you be happy if your ex wife's parents were given joint custody with a 50/50 timeshare with you? It can and HAS happened in PA, to custodial fathers with absolutely NO fitness issues...even when the grandparents had MAJOR fitness issues.

 

[Proserpina]

LdiJ, I've spoken with you privately about a similar matter close to home for me, and I have a somewhat-related question.

Is there any way - considering this is a pretty anonymous forum I'm hoping it won't be an issue - you could actually list organization you were involved with? Or any others?

I'm sure it would help a LOT of posters to know there may be resources available when/if they have to deal with an unwanted GPV suit.

I've searched online using a few difference search strings but all I'm finding are pro GPV sites/organizations.

Thanks!

 

[LdiJ]

LdiJ, I've spoken with you privately about a similar matter close to home for me, and I have a somewhat-related question.

Is there any way - considering this is a pretty anonymous forum I'm hoping it won't be an issue - you could actually list organization you were involved with? Or any others?

I'm sure it would help a LOT of posters to know there may be resources available when/if they have to deal with an unwanted GPV suit.

I've searched online using a few difference search strings but all I'm finding are pro GPV sites/organizations.

Thanks!

No, unfortunately I cannot. The major organization I was involved with, the organization that submitted an amicus brief in the Troxel case is long gone. I still work with a small group that we keep very private.

If you want to verify the amicus brief then research the Troxel case and look for the amicus brief from the Coalition for the Restoration of Parental Rights. (CRPR)

Otherwise, there isn't a "movement" any longer to protect parental rights. The USSC already ruled and most states adhere to that.