Don't want to lose my girls

[Supernova]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Tennessee, Putnam County

After a lot of drama I didn’t need in my life, my grandmother took me to court to get visitations with my oldest daughter. From reading most of the posts here, and talking with everyone I thought might know something about it, I was sure she wouldn’t get it. But her lawyer used the case of Smallwood vs. Mann to win the case, and was awarded visitations every other weekend from 9am to 2pm.

For numerous reasons, I didn’t want to send my child with her, so I didn’t. She took me back to court, and the judge found me in contempt, and made me serve 3 days in jail, with 80 days suspended, and the understanding that if I missed one more visit, he would enforce the 80 days.

I had never been in trouble before, and jail was no place to be, so I was scared, and started sending her to visit. In less than 2 months, things escalated to the point that I was willing to serve the 80 days to save my kids some stress. Something I wish I hadn’t done, but it’s over and done with now, can’t go back.

Now she is taking me back to court to make me serve the 80 days, and is trying to get full custody of her because I will be away for an extended time. If I have to serve the 80 days, I will lose my apartment because it’s a lease violation, I will be kicked out of school, and maybe even lose my girls.

I can’t afford a attorney, it’s just not a possibility. So I started reading everything I could, but the language of law is just gibberish to me. I read over and over, and just can’t get it. I have read the Smallwood vs. Mann a hundred times, and still don’t come close to understanding it.

So my question is…………what can I do to “defeat” the Smallwood vs. Mann argument? If I could show that she shouldn’t have won visitation rights to begin with, then I wouldn’t have been found in contempt. I’m sure it doesn’t work that way, but I’m grasping at straws here. I am more worried about her getting custody than the jail time. I made up my mind long ago the jail time was worth it, but I didn’t think that would include me losing custody.

I don’t want to lose my girls, and although it’s my fault I didn’t send her to visit, I really do have good reasons, it’s just that the post gets too long to explain. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[LillianX]

Unless there is actual, imminent risk of real, physical danger to your kids, you did NOT have a good reason to violate the court order. And if that were the case, you would have called CPS to look into the abuse.

The judge made it very clear... if you violate the order, you're going to jail. Can you change his mind? Maybe, with a very, VERY good attorney who is familiar with this particular judge.

SOMEONE may very well may end up with custody regardless of the jail situation. Where is the other parent? Who will take care of the younger girls while you are in jail?

As for the rest, yes, those are consequences of breaking a court order multiple times.

See folks reading this who are not the OP? THIS is why you follow your court orders. THIS is why you have the child ready and available at the ordered time.

ETA: Smallwood v Mann summed up in a nutshell: Grandparents visitation cannot be ASSIGNED by the courts to the grandparents during times where the NCP is unavailable. Grandparents must petition for their own, separate visitation than the NCPs.

 

[I'mTheFather]

Unless there is actual, imminent risk of real, physical danger to your kids, you did NOT have a good reason to violate the court order. And if that were the case, you would have called CPS to look into the abuse.

The judge made it very clear... if you violate the order, you're going to jail. Can you change his mind? Maybe, with a very, VERY good attorney who is familiar with this particular judge.

Mom very well may end up with custody regardless of the jail situation. Judges like to give residential custody to the parent who is more likely to facilitate a relationship with the other parent. Given that you have proven that you aren't willing to do that... well. Good luck.

As for the rest, yes, those are consequences of breaking a court order multiple times.

See folks reading this who are not the OP? THIS is why you follow your court orders. THIS is why you have the child ready and available at the ordered time.

Dear, OP is mom. Great-grandma is trying for custody. I don't recall mom ever mentioning a dad.

So, Sup, where's dad?

ETA: Oh wait, I think dad likes drugs and isn't part of the picture. Still..... And the novel is gone, along with the replies. Sort of like a stellar explosion.

 

[LillianX]

Yes. I edited my post before you responded. Thanks for the incoherent stuff you posted though.

 

[I'mTheFather]

Yes. I edited my post before you responded. Thanks for the incoherent stuff you posted though.

Little touchy, aren't we? I certainly wasn't criticizing you in any way, but if you took it that way, oh well.

You edited your post after I started replying, but before I finished. If that's never happened to you, then you are even more perfect than ME!

 

[LillianX]

Little touchy, aren't we? I certainly wasn't criticizing you in any way, but if you took it that way, oh well.

You edited your post after I started replying, but before I finished. If that's never happened to you, then you are even more perfect than ME!

Nah. It's wicked early and I'm a cranky one this time of day. My apologies.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Tennessee, Putnam County

After a lot of drama I didn’t need in my life, my grandmother took me to court to get visitations with my oldest daughter. From reading most of the posts here, and talking with everyone I thought might know something about it, I was sure she wouldn’t get it. But her lawyer used the case of Smallwood vs. Mann to win the case, and was awarded visitations every other weekend from 9am to 2pm.

For numerous reasons, I didn’t want to send my child with her, so I didn’t. She took me back to court, and the judge found me in contempt, and made me serve 3 days in jail, with 80 days suspended, and the understanding that if I missed one more visit, he would enforce the 80 days.

I had never been in trouble before, and jail was no place to be, so I was scared, and started sending her to visit. In less than 2 months, things escalated to the point that I was willing to serve the 80 days to save my kids some stress. Something I wish I hadn’t done, but it’s over and done with now, can’t go back.

Now she is taking me back to court to make me serve the 80 days, and is trying to get full custody of her because I will be away for an extended time. If I have to serve the 80 days, I will lose my apartment because it’s a lease violation, I will be kicked out of school, and maybe even lose my girls.

I can’t afford a attorney, it’s just not a possibility. So I started reading everything I could, but the language of law is just gibberish to me. I read over and over, and just can’t get it. I have read the Smallwood vs. Mann a hundred times, and still don’t come close to understanding it.

So my question is…………what can I do to “defeat” the Smallwood vs. Mann argument? If I could show that she shouldn’t have won visitation rights to begin with, then I wouldn’t have been found in contempt. I’m sure it doesn’t work that way, but I’m grasping at straws here. I am more worried about her getting custody than the jail time. I made up my mind long ago the jail time was worth it, but I didn’t think that would include me losing custody.

I don’t want to lose my girls, and although it’s my fault I didn’t send her to visit, I really do have good reasons, it’s just that the post gets too long to explain. Thanks in advance for your help.

Dad, you really DO need an attorney...and actually since you are facing criminal contempt the judge should have appointed one for you if you could not afford one.

I think if you had had an attorney in the first place you wouldn't have lost this case. There are masses of case law in TN that is on your side, and the Smallwood vs Mann case is about the only thing that favors grandparents.

You need to be filing a counter motion to vacate the visitation order. You need to argue that the best interest of your children are not served by sending you to jail. You need to appoint SOMEONE ELSE to be the standby guardian for your children in case something happens to you so that great grandma cannot be given custody. You need to do that BEFORE you go to court, and your children should be in the care of that person on the day that you go to court. If that person is NOT located in TN, that would be even better.

To find a judge still willing to jail a parent for refusing to obey a gpv order these days is surprising. Most judges who have done so have been destroyed by the media. I haven't heard of a case like that since Troxel.

 

[commentator]

So welcome to small town America, third world state, TN. OP, remove the identifying data from your post, everything except the state name, or would you like me to be able to tell you who was your husband's gg's attorney?

TN family court system has gotten on a kick lately of really pushing and recognizing the rights of grandparents, non custodials. It's got to do with some really activist fathers lobbying to change TN divorce and custody statutes. There's been a lot of attention to father's rights, shared custody and the rights of the parents to have sleepover company; we're getting downright liberal, we are!
Joint or shared custody frequently boils down to druggie wastrel parent of either sex gets joint custody to avoid child support, dumps child with his/her mother (or grand mother, or great grand mother) during parenting time. They all sit around and talk about how sorry mother/father is. OP, get an attorney, even if you have to sell your car!

 

[CSO286]

Dad, you really DO need an attorney...and actually since you are facing criminal contempt the judge should have appointed one for you if you could not afford one.

I think if you had had an attorney in the first place you wouldn't have lost this case.

Pssst.....OP is Mom

But I agree wit hthe need for an attorney, and if you're facing jail time, you certainly should be eligible to apply for a public defender......

 

[Supernova]

Unless there is actual, imminent risk of real, physical danger to your kids, you did NOT have a good reason to violate the court order. And if that were the case, you would have called CPS to look into the abuse.

Well, I can't prove danger, she would never cause physical harm, this is all mental, drilling in my child's head that she is going to take her away from me to live with her. My child is suffering over this. I used to be able to run to the store, or check the mail, and I never had problems getting her on the school bus. Now she want's to be near me all the time, it's a big effort to get her to let me go anywhere without her, and it's got to the point that I am seeking counseling for her. But I can't prove it in the courtroom, I tried to show a video of the way she acts when she is picked up for a visit, but the judge won't look at it.

SOMEONE may very well may end up with custody regardless of the jail situation. Where is the other parent? Who will take care of the younger girls while you are in jail?

Her father is in jail for shooting someone(long after we split up) and has never met Brandi face to face, but I do keep him updated with letters and pictures. There are many people who could handle the girls, my best friend for instance, the girls have grown up with her and her family, even have their own bedroom in her home. My mom could keep them, my other grandmother, I have no problem with finding someone I know will care for them completely.

ETA: Smallwood v Mann summed up in a nutshell: Grandparents visitation cannot be ASSIGNED by the courts to the grandparents during times where the NCP is unavailable. Grandparents must petition for their own, separate visitation than the NCPs.

I feel really stupid admitting this, but I still have no clue. Your saying that it says grandparents cannot be assigned visitation, but she got it anyway. What is NCP? Sorry for dumb questions, but I really need to understand this.

Still..... And the novel is gone, along with the replies. Sort of like a stellar explosion

Sorry, I thought I needed to delete it because people were saying it wouldn't be read, there were only 2 replies, both suggesting I shorten it down.

I think if you had had an attorney in the first place you wouldn't have lost this case. There are masses of case law in TN that is on your side, and the Smallwood vs Mann case is about the only thing that favors grandparents.

I agree, if I had an attorney, I wouldn't have lost, I almost won as a matter of fact. Could you point me to a couple of those masses of case laws that are on my side? And if I find one, say "lynch vs. mob" how do I use it, do I literally say, "the case of lych vs. mob trumps smallwood vs. mann"(I know it doesn't work that way) but how to I "present" it to the judge.

I live on welfare, and only get $185 a month, so an attorney just isn't in the works. After I get out of school, and can get a decent job, this will NEVER be the case again, but as of now, I am stuck.

You need to be filing a counter motion to vacate the visitation order. You need to argue that the best interest of your children are not served by sending you to jail. You need to appoint SOMEONE ELSE to be the standby guardian for your children in case something happens to you so that great grandma cannot be given custody. You need to do that BEFORE you go to court, and your children should be in the care of that person on the day that you go to court. If that person is NOT located in TN, that would be even better.

I understand that I am asking for a lot here, and I realize how stupid I sound by asking, but how do I file a counter motion to vacate the visitation order? Is it a form, or who do I call? I tried to say that sending me to jail the first time didn't help the girls at all, and he didn't care, but I intend to go this route when we go back to court. When you say appoint someone to be the standby guardian, do you mean to go to court, or go somewhere to have papers drawn up? Can it be anyone I want, or does it need to be family to help my chances? I would love to leave them with my best friend(she is like a sister to me, and her and her husband love the girls, and they love them). She is the person who would be watching them on a court day anyway. And would I have to give her address? I don't want want my grandmother getting her address, because it's the only place she can't show up to, and start trouble.

Just to clarify one thing, this is my paternal grandmother I am referring to. I never met her till I was 17 because she done the same things to my mom(tried to take me from mom).

When we go to court over this, I intend to ask for an court appointed attorney, I asked before, but he said it wasn't a criminal matter. Hopefully, the judge will postpone the hearing so I can meet with the attorney, and that will give me more time to get prepared, AND I really think an attorney can turn this all around for me, by making the court see my evidence. I think the judges opinion of her would change when he hears the messages, and sees the video of how she acts when she is not in the courtroom.

Now I'm off to google, "how to file a counter motion to vacate visitation" "how to appoint a standby guardian" and "troxel" to start trying to understand this stuff. Thank you all so much for your help so far, times running out, dec. 5 is fast approaching.