Grandparent threatening to sue me for visitation of children

[Jolene324313]

Wyoming

A grandparent on my ex's side of the family is threatening legal action if I do not allow him contact with the children.

Some background:
~14 year old child and 6 year old child.
~Last time grandparent had face-to-face with both children was more than three years ago at a Xmas party. Since then he's only spoken with them on phone a handful of times (maybe two to three times a year, tops) and that eventually stopped when my ex went back to court trying to modify custody order (which was decided against my ex). Since then there has been zero contact with the children between grandparent, for almost 2 years now.
~Prior to this, the grandparent has no time spent with younger child and did spent some time with older child (more than seven years ago) at a camping event of some sort and occasionally through my ex. But other than this, the last real visit was more than 3 years ago.
~Grandparent is an admitted alcoholic. A little more than a year ago he called me from a bar early morning threatening me with violence because I would not let his son see my children (we were fighting in court then and my son had just shown up to the proceeding intoxicated, so his father was angry and wanted to yell at me about, saying it was my fault somehow). I documented this incident with the police.
~Following the above incident, the grandparent's drinking became so bad that he was institutionalized for acting out in public while drunk and kept in a mental hospital against his will for 9 months. He was released five weeks ago. Almost immediately he sought me out demanding to see my children and showing up at former residents unannounced, looking for me.
~My ex has recently left the state and has failed to comply with his recently modified order allowing him only supervised visits and strict drug and alcohol testings (he hasn't done this). He has had little or no contact with the children since the modification. He claims it is because he doesn't know where we live now but he occasionally reaches out to older child on Facebook (which usually ends in an argument, with child banning father's account) and he has not made the effort to reach out to me via email or through my attorney to find out my whereabouts. I'm still in same place, in Wyoming, same town.

Now, with all that said (alot, I know...lol...) the grandparent in question has recently hired a lawyer and wrote me a letter from the lawyer asking "simply to have contact with the children". Enclosed in the letter is a barely coherent letter from granddad where he admits that he hasn't seen the children for 3 years, admits to having 'had' a drinking problem, brags about 'now' being sober for the last 10 months (nine months of which he was sober because he was locked up at a mental hospital), brags about he and I having a great relationship (untrue...his fantasy), and brags about being a great grand-dad in the past, and accusing "a third-party" of poisoning his relationship with the children (I actually agree with that part, the third-party was booze IMHO). But despite the mildness of this letter he did hand write me a letter prior to this days ago threatening to go through a lawyer if necessary to protect "his rights in the book."

I don't want my children to have contact with him, period. He's a life-long drunk, a total narcissist, possibly sociopathic. The children have already been through a lot with the ex and the courts finally stepped in to contain him, and he's fled the state after essentially not getting what he wanted so he's abandoned the kids lives so he can drink himself to death in Nevada. I don't want to expose them to Round 2 of this nonsense. I can't imagine a lawyer taking on his case given his outrageous past history, but stranger things have happened (he was institutionalized for getting so drunk every morning for months and then going to an ER and demanding/harrassing-them that they detoxify him since it was killing his liver--he can't process alcohol properly anymore--that they got so sick of his daily drunken behavior that they locked him up at a mental hospital).

He hasn't been a significant/regular part of the children's lives though he will argue that he was a great grand-dad many years ago. And in the lawyer's letter he brags about his 10 months of sobriety.

My plan is not to let him have contact with the children for all the aforementioned reasons. Since he hasn't really been part of the children's lives and because of his severe alcoholism in the past I simply don't want to expose the children to more alcoholics. Even if he is truly sober this time around, he would have to provide a year or two of documented sobriety for me to be convinced he really has changed since he's been an aggressive life-long drunk.

I had a hard time interpreting Wyoming law in all of this.

Am I obligated by law to re-introduce (introduce) an estranged grandparent into my kids lives even if he's been barely part of their lives?

If he sues me in court, should I be worried about my chances here??

I just don't feel confident/comfortable about introducing someone who is essentially a stranger with such a dark and destructive past into my kids lives (especially after all the damage they've already suffered being exposed to their alcoholic biological father).

The oldest child doesn't want to see him, and told him as much when they argued last on Facebook. My younger daughter doesn't remember him since he met with him only once when she was two at the aforementioned Christmas dinner. She's indifferent about the whole situation but she's only six.

Any advice? (sorry for the length of this post, trying best to be thoughtful)

 

[muchneededhelp]

With that kind of history, I'd be hard pressed to find a reason why he would have a case. If he's had that little of contact with the grandchildren, he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. If it were me, I'd file the letters in a folder called "That ain't never gonna happen". If he had a real case, he would of filed it already if he went as far as to get lawyer and write you a letter telling you he was going to pursue his "rights" (Which are zilch) I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but thats how I see it. Everyone on here talks about how the grandparents should "make nice" with the parents if they want to see their grandchildren, and I think this is maybe where that sob story letter came from... possibly by the urging of his lawyer. He doesn't have much of a case, he can only ask.

Here's the law for your state:

2010 Wyoming Code
Title 20 - Domestic Relations
Chapter 7 - Visitation Rights

(a) A grandparent may bring an original action against any person having custody of the grandparent's minor grandchild to establish reasonable visitation rights to the child. If the court finds, after a hearing, that visitation would be in the best interest of the child and that the rights of the child's parents are not substantially impaired, the court shall grant reasonable visitation rights to the grandparent. In any action under this section for which the court appoints a guardian ad litem, the grandparent shall be responsible for all fees and expenses associated with the appointment.

 

[LdiJ]

With that kind of history, I'd be hard pressed to find a reason why he would have a case. If he's had that little of contact with the grandchildren, he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. If it were me, I'd file the letters in a folder called "That ain't never gonna happen". If he had a real case, he would of filed it already if he went as far as to get lawyer and write you a letter telling you he was going to pursue his "rights" (Which are zilch) I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but thats how I see it. Everyone on here talks about how the grandparents should "make nice" with the parents if they want to see their grandchildren, and I think this is maybe where that sob story letter came from... possibly by the urging of his lawyer. He doesn't have much of a case, he can only ask.

Here's the law for your state:

2010 Wyoming Code
Title 20 - Domestic Relations
Chapter 7 - Visitation Rights

(a) A grandparent may bring an original action against any person having custody of the grandparent's minor grandchild to establish reasonable visitation rights to the child. If the court finds, after a hearing, that visitation would be in the best interest of the child and that the rights of the child's parents are not substantially impaired, the court shall grant reasonable visitation rights to the grandparent. In any action under this section for which the court appoints a guardian ad litem, the grandparent shall be responsible for all fees and expenses associated with the appointment.

I agree that the law reads that way in Wyoming. However, case law on the subject in Wyoming is important since Wyoming was one of the first state's whose Supreme Court ruled on GPV based on the Troxel standards.

The OP should read

NEAL v. LEE
2000 OK 90
14 P.3d 547
71 OBJ 2924
Case Number: 93670
Decided: 11/07/2000
Mandate Issued: 12/01/2000
Supreme Court of Oklahoma

This case is the most controlling as most cases since then have involved more complex issues than a simple case of a grandparent filing for visitation when the child's parent(s) is/are fit.

Now in the following case:

INGRAM v. KNIPPERS
2003 OK 58
72 P.3d 17
Case Number: 96331
Decided: 06/03/2003

The following statement was made by the Wyoming Supreme Court:

II. HERBST, SCOTT, AND NEAL

¶10 Title 10, section 5 of the Oklahoma Statutes allows a court to grant grandparental visitation with an unmarried minor grandchild under certain circumstances if the court deems it to be in the child's best interest. In Herbst, this Court held section 5 to be unconstitutional to the extent it permitted district courts to grant grandparental visitation over the objection of fit parents without a showing of potential harm to the child when the family is intact. This Court extended Herbst to apply when the children are living with one parent and the other parent is deceased. Neal, 2000 OK 90, 14 P.3d 547.

¶11 Then in Scott, this Court held that termination of an existing grandparental visitation order based on agreement of the parties is not subject to collateral attack in a modification proceeding but that the moving party is required to show a change in circumstances adversely effecting the child's best interest such that a change in visitation would improve the child's temporal, moral and mental welfare. Scott, 2000 OK 9 at ¶ 5, 19 P.3d at 275. Unlike Neal and Herbst, the child in Scott was adopted. However, this was not a factor in this Court's decision. Adoptive parents have no lesser rights than biological and single parents. Further, the remand in Scott was based on the district's court failure to follow statutory procedures required by title 10, section 5.1

Based on a read of Wyoming case law since Neal, those two paragraphs pretty much sum up the status of gpv in Wyoming.

 

[muchneededhelp]

LDiJ, I'm a bit confused, so please don't take my question the wrong way. But why are you citing Oklahoma law? I truly thought caselaw was only relevant for each independent state?

 

[RRevak]

Um guys, we are already familiar with this situation...think real hard about why

 

[LdiJ]

LDiJ, I'm a bit confused, so please don't take my question the wrong way. But why are you citing Oklahoma law? I truly thought caselaw was only relevant for each independent state?

Now I am totally confused. Those cases came directly from the Wyoming Supreme Court Website and I never noticed anything mentioning Oklahoma...I was too busy reading the cases.

My apologies.

Edit to add:

Well, I have an explanation. Apparently Oklahoma and Wyoming are sharing a database. I did another quick search and it does not appear that Wyoming has any post Troxel cases that are pure gpv cases...at least not that I could find quickly. Unfortunately I don't have time to do another in depth search.

 

[muchneededhelp]

No problem LdiJ I was a bit confused, thank you for clarifying.

Regardless Jolene, I am hard pressed to see where visitation would be in the "Best interests of the children" seeing this rogue grandfather's past of instability and alcoholism. I wouldn't be too concerned, honestly. It doesn't mean he can't try to bring an action against you thru the courts for consideration, though. It also does not mean he won't continue to pressure you and pursue it outside of court.

I would suggest any contact between you and grandfather should be documented; documentation is your best friend if you believe he might try to pursue court. Write down the last dates and times your children had contact with him in any way, or any threatening behavior he's directed at you. You are already aware of this, I see

Grandparent is an admitted alcoholic. A little more than a year ago he called me from a bar early morning threatening me with violence because I would not let his son see my children (we were fighting in court then and my son had just shown up to the proceeding intoxicated, so his father was angry and wanted to yell at me about, saying it was my fault somehow). I documented this incident with the police. (I am also assuming you meant "his son" showed up to the proceeding intoxicated.)

Also, I would not allow ANY contact with the grandfather, regardless of now, or down the road. If you find, after allowing him visitation with the children, that it's not working out due to the aforementioned reasons, it might be much harder to remove him from your lives. Don't open that door.