Supervised visit question

[catlvr976]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?PA

My question involves supervised visitation. We've had supervised visits since 9/07 that take place at my home. Father deceased and had cut his family out of his life before he died due to abuse he suffered from his mother and stepfather and wished to shield his children from; he committed suicide, which his entire family blames me for. I am on the receiving end of much hostility from them.

Well, we are going to be moving 1 1/2 hrs away very soon, once our place is ready. G-ma dragged me back to court in Feb this year for the 3rd time since this all started to get unsupervised visits and overnights every other weekend.

We were supposed to have a hearing which turned into a conference of sorts with both attys and the hearing officer. I was told by my atty that if I want supervised, there needs to be more than one visit/month. I don't know where this came from, the officer or his experience.

I was looking for 1 visit/month due to my children's wishes (3 under 8 years old). They do NOT want to travel back here to visit with her. I agree, due to the safety issues of travelling on a major highway, the hassle of dragging kids in the car, I would think it'd be much easier for one to travel than transporting a bunch of kids around. They also do not want to spend time with her without me there. They have expressed this to me many times. Plus, their therapist agrees that there should not be unsupervised visits at this time. G-ma showed up for less than 1/2 her visits last year and did not do much better the year before. This year, she did better, but my atty believes that this was bc of her bringing me back to court this year to try and get unsupervised (g-ma has a new atty, also).

I guess I'm just wondering, does there really need to be more than 1 visit/month if visits are supervised? The hearing officer did say that g-ma needs to realize she's just a g-ma, not their father. The officer did agree to no overnights and no unsupervised, as there's a process that needs to happen before overnights would ever occur. My atty did say that he thinks he got a subtle hint from her when she said that her "son is in soccer and that takes up pretty much every weekend in the fall" and told me to try and enroll them in activities to lessen their chance of travelling since she cannot interfere with their lives. They do have other family that they very much enjoy spending time with. If she were to get every other weekend, that would leave 2 weekends and if they wanted to spend time with their other g-ma (who's been involved with them since the day they were born and they are very close with) that would leave me with 1 weekend to be with my children.

G-ma does not seem to take their feelings into consideration at all. She insists that they know the rest of the family (cousins, etc.) but these people have expressed no desire or even attempted to get in contact with my children. She spends most of her time when she visits dealing with my oldest dd and leaving the younger 2 to their own thing. My middle child has expressed that she thinks her g-ma doesn't like her bc she spends all her time talking to her older sister. She has left visits early or not attended at all bc her other grandchildren are there or have other things going on.

Oh, there was an interim order entered, (no real changes just added 1 or 2 visits to occur before we leave and for her to come and visit once we move, then for me to drive them back here once we move, then there'll be a review come Sept).

Any advice?

Thank you very kindly for reading and taking the time to reply.

 

[BL]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?PA

My question involves supervised visitation. We've had supervised visits since 9/07 that take place at my home. Father deceased and had cut his family out of his life before he died due to abuse he suffered from his mother and stepfather and wished to shield his children from; he committed suicide, which his entire family blames me for. I am on the receiving end of much hostility from them.

Well, we are going to be moving 1 1/2 hrs away very soon, once our place is ready. G-ma dragged me back to court in Feb this year for the 3rd time since this all started to get unsupervised visits and overnights every other weekend.

We were supposed to have a hearing which turned into a conference of sorts with both attys and the hearing officer. I was told by my atty that if I want supervised, there needs to be more than one visit/month. I don't know where this came from, the officer or his experience.

I was looking for 1 visit/month due to my children's wishes (3 under 8 years old). They do NOT want to travel back here to visit with her. I agree, due to the safety issues of travelling on a major highway, the hassle of dragging kids in the car, I would think it'd be much easier for one to travel than transporting a bunch of kids around. They also do not want to spend time with her without me there. They have expressed this to me many times. Plus, their therapist agrees that there should not be unsupervised visits at this time. G-ma showed up for less than 1/2 her visits last year and did not do much better the year before. This year, she did better, but my atty believes that this was bc of her bringing me back to court this year to try and get unsupervised (g-ma has a new atty, also).

I guess I'm just wondering, does there really need to be more than 1 visit/month if visits are supervised? The hearing officer did say that g-ma needs to realize she's just a g-ma, not their father. The officer did agree to no overnights and no unsupervised, as there's a process that needs to happen before overnights would ever occur. My atty did say that he thinks he got a subtle hint from her when she said that her "son is in soccer and that takes up pretty much every weekend in the fall" and told me to try and enroll them in activities to lessen their chance of travelling since she cannot interfere with their lives. They do have other family that they very much enjoy spending time with. If she were to get every other weekend, that would leave 2 weekends and if they wanted to spend time with their other g-ma (who's been involved with them since the day they were born and they are very close with) that would leave me with 1 weekend to be with my children.

G-ma does not seem to take their feelings into consideration at all. She insists that they know the rest of the family (cousins, etc.) but these people have expressed no desire or even attempted to get in contact with my children. She spends most of her time when she visits dealing with my oldest dd and leaving the younger 2 to their own thing. My middle child has expressed that she thinks her g-ma doesn't like her bc she spends all her time talking to her older sister. She has left visits early or not attended at all bc her other grandchildren are there or have other things going on.

Oh, there was an interim order entered, (no real changes just added 1 or 2 visits to occur before we leave and for her to come and visit once we move, then for me to drive them back here once we move, then there'll be a review come Sept).

Any advice?

Thank you very kindly for reading and taking the time to reply.

I can't see a Judge ordering every other weekend or overnights .

The Judge has already indicated the GP doesn't have the same rights as a parent . Those schedules fit a part of a parent's visitation schedule.

I'm not in PA , but my GF's GM only got every other Sat. from about 8:30 AM until 6 PM or the like by agreement ( which I advise against ). So that's twice per month.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?PA

My question involves supervised visitation. We've had supervised visits since 9/07 that take place at my home. Father deceased and had cut his family out of his life before he died due to abuse he suffered from his mother and stepfather and wished to shield his children from; he committed suicide, which his entire family blames me for. I am on the receiving end of much hostility from them.

Well, we are going to be moving 1 1/2 hrs away very soon, once our place is ready. G-ma dragged me back to court in Feb this year for the 3rd time since this all started to get unsupervised visits and overnights every other weekend.

We were supposed to have a hearing which turned into a conference of sorts with both attys and the hearing officer. I was told by my atty that if I want supervised, there needs to be more than one visit/month. I don't know where this came from, the officer or his experience.

I was looking for 1 visit/month due to my children's wishes (3 under 8 years old). They do NOT want to travel back here to visit with her. I agree, due to the safety issues of travelling on a major highway, the hassle of dragging kids in the car, I would think it'd be much easier for one to travel than transporting a bunch of kids around. They also do not want to spend time with her without me there. They have expressed this to me many times. Plus, their therapist agrees that there should not be unsupervised visits at this time. G-ma showed up for less than 1/2 her visits last year and did not do much better the year before. This year, she did better, but my atty believes that this was bc of her bringing me back to court this year to try and get unsupervised (g-ma has a new atty, also).

I guess I'm just wondering, does there really need to be more than 1 visit/month if visits are supervised? The hearing officer did say that g-ma needs to realize she's just a g-ma, not their father. The officer did agree to no overnights and no unsupervised, as there's a process that needs to happen before overnights would ever occur. My atty did say that he thinks he got a subtle hint from her when she said that her "son is in soccer and that takes up pretty much every weekend in the fall" and told me to try and enroll them in activities to lessen their chance of travelling since she cannot interfere with their lives. They do have other family that they very much enjoy spending time with. If she were to get every other weekend, that would leave 2 weekends and if they wanted to spend time with their other g-ma (who's been involved with them since the day they were born and they are very close with) that would leave me with 1 weekend to be with my children.

G-ma does not seem to take their feelings into consideration at all. She insists that they know the rest of the family (cousins, etc.) but these people have expressed no desire or even attempted to get in contact with my children. She spends most of her time when she visits dealing with my oldest dd and leaving the younger 2 to their own thing. My middle child has expressed that she thinks her g-ma doesn't like her bc she spends all her time talking to her older sister. She has left visits early or not attended at all bc her other grandchildren are there or have other things going on.

Oh, there was an interim order entered, (no real changes just added 1 or 2 visits to occur before we leave and for her to come and visit once we move, then for me to drive them back here once we move, then there'll be a review come Sept).

Any advice?

Thank you very kindly for reading and taking the time to reply.

There is no law that says if visits are to be supervised that there has to be more than one visit a month. It may be that either grandma's attorney stated that desire to your attorney or that the judge hinted around to that, but there is no law.

PA is, unfortunately, a very grandparent friendly state, so consider yourself lucky that you have a judge that has already said yes to supervision and no to overnights. If it ever gets to the point where it looks like the judge may see it differently, then make sure that you get the children's counselor into court to testify.

 

[catlvr976]

My dd's therapist was there yesterday, but like I said, there ended up being no hearing.

They had an appointment with her today, and I spoke with her about everything. She made mention of the fact that the hearing officer (we don't see a judge for whatever reason) stated that she will not go against what a therapist says, so I will definitely be continuing their therapy after our move.

It's just a shame this has to happen.

 

[Childrenfirst]

Catlvr976, I'm very sorry for your loss. Were their ever any charges filed against your husbands mother and step-father for the abuse of your husband when he was a child?
When you make the drive for the continued therapy, why not just piggy back the supervised visit w/grandma then?
I don't understand how a judge or hearing officer can consider the opinion of a therapist if the therapist hasn't interviewed all those concerned. Basically, how can a therapist form an opinion if she hasn't interviewed grandma or seen grandma interact with the children? Perhaps she is only giving the facts of what the children say?
It's a shame for all concerned...litigation is hard on everyone. I always think it's odd when an attorney uses activities for children to "tie up their time". You are a good mom to involve your kids in activities, so be careful that your attorney doesn't turn your good parenting into "legal strategy" to avoid the visitation. If the visitation is in the best interest of the children, then all adults need to do what it takes to provide what the children need.

 

[muchneededhelp]

I don't understand how a judge or hearing officer can consider the opinion of a therapist if the therapist hasn't interviewed all those concerned. Basically, how can a therapist form an opinion if she hasn't interviewed grandma or seen grandma interact with the children? Perhaps she is only giving the facts of what the children say?

It is not the therapist's job to interview the grandmother or watch her with the children. That is a job for a GAL. A therapist can form an opinion of a situation regarding the children at anytime as the children are her CLIENTS. The courts can interview grandma if they want to, not therapists job.

If the visitation is in the best interest of the children, then all adults need to do what it takes to provide what the children need.

Tell Grandma that. In the words of the OP:

G-ma showed up for less than 1/2 her visits last year and did not do much better the year before.

 

[Childrenfirst]

muchneededhelp, how can a good therapist offer such an important opinion, one that will impact the life of a child without being absolutely sure of all the facts? That would probably include wanting to observe the gp/gc interacting. Maybe they don't HAVE TO (it's not their job), but if it will help them form a more solid opinion to benefit their client then why wouldn't they? After all, is using a therapist for legal strategy more important than doing what is best for the child? Doesn't sound like a good therapist to me. Sounds like a game player. As for a GAL, they'd have to be licensed child and family therapists to do any good. Often a judge will order an MC, but they are not licensed therapists.
What we need to remember is that children are feeling human beings and they will grow up. Wouldn't it be sad if they resented mom for making a decision without the best advice? For getting caught up in her "rights"? Me, me, me....and what's best for her children taking a back seat to her/his power and control.
I won't say that ALL grandparents should have visitation rights. I'm saying that if you don't want grandma or grandpa to have a bond with your children then don't let it start at all.

 

[LdiJ]

muchneededhelp, how can a good therapist offer such an important opinion, one that will impact the life of a child without being absolutely sure of all the facts? That would probably include wanting to observe the gp/gc interacting. Maybe they don't HAVE TO (it's not their job), but if it will help them form a more solid opinion to benefit their client then why wouldn't they? After all, is using a therapist for legal strategy more important than doing what is best for the child? Doesn't sound like a good therapist to me. Sounds like a game player. As for a GAL, they'd have to be licensed child and family therapists to do any good. Often a judge will order an MC, but they are not licensed therapists.
What we need to remember is that children are feeling human beings and they will grow up. Wouldn't it be sad if they resented mom for making a decision without the best advice? For getting caught up in her "rights"? Me, me, me....and what's best for her children taking a back seat to her/his power and control.
I won't say that ALL grandparents should have visitation rights. I'm saying that if you don't want grandma or grandpa to have a bond with your children then don't let it start at all.

You really need to change your screenname to grandparentsfirst instead of childrenfirst, because your agenda here is crystal clear.

 

[BL]

muchneededhelp, how can a good therapist offer such an important opinion, one that will impact the life of a child without being absolutely sure of all the facts? That would probably include wanting to observe the gp/gc interacting. Maybe they don't HAVE TO (it's not their job), but if it will help them form a more solid opinion to benefit their client then why wouldn't they? After all, is using a therapist for legal strategy more important than doing what is best for the child? Doesn't sound like a good therapist to me. Sounds like a game player. As for a GAL, they'd have to be licensed child and family therapists to do any good. Often a judge will order an MC, but they are not licensed therapists.
What we need to remember is that children are feeling human beings and they will grow up. Wouldn't it be sad if they resented mom for making a decision without the best advice? For getting caught up in her "rights"? Me, me, me....and what's best for her children taking a back seat to her/his power and control.
I won't say that ALL grandparents should have visitation rights. I'm saying that if you don't want grandma or grandpa to have a bond with your children then don't let it start at all.

Also, you seem not to know much about therapist opinions and what impact they have to the court ,and GAL recommendations .

Both carry a lot of weight and the grands do not have to be interviewed .

3 and eight year olds can express their feelings pretty well and if the grands aren't keeping up on visits for there to remain a loving and caring bond , any bond would fade away .

The grands only utilizing 1/2 their rights shows they do not have all that lovey dovey they may claim they do with the children.

 

[Rushia]

muchneededhelp, how can a good therapist offer such an important opinion, one that will impact the life of a child without being absolutely sure of all the facts? That would probably include wanting to observe the gp/gc interacting. Maybe they don't HAVE TO (it's not their job), but if it will help them form a more solid opinion to benefit their client then why wouldn't they? After all, is using a therapist for legal strategy more important than doing what is best for the child? Doesn't sound like a good therapist to me. Sounds like a game player. As for a GAL, they'd have to be licensed child and family therapists to do any good. Often a judge will order an MC, but they are not licensed therapists.
What we need to remember is that children are feeling human beings and they will grow up. Wouldn't it be sad if they resented mom for making a decision without the best advice? For getting caught up in her "rights"? Me, me, me....and what's best for her children taking a back seat to her/his power and control.
I won't say that ALL grandparents should have visitation rights. I'm saying that if you don't want grandma or grandpa to have a bond with your children then don't let it start at all.

You have no idea what you're talking about and you need to stop. As a person who dealt with a gpv court battle for over 3 years and a parent who has to suffer the damage done to my children cause a bunch of people who don't have a clue about my children gave the gp an order, I find your post very offensive.

You really need to change your screenname to grandparentsfirst instead of childrenfirst, because your agenda here is crystal clear.

Agreed.

 

[Proserpina]

You really need to change your screenname to grandparentsfirst instead of childrenfirst, because your agenda here is crystal clear.

Also agreed. I'm wondering if this isn't a grandparent who tried and failed.

 

[LdiJ]

Also agreed. I'm wondering if this isn't a grandparent who tried and failed.

Its very possible. Maybe even probable.

 

[Childrenfirst]

Rushia, every situation is different. Sorry if you're offended but the fact of the matter is, there are good grandparents and bad, and good parents and bad. Easily offended folks shouldn't read public posts.

My comment regarding the therapist was in general, not directed at a certain case, although maybe I should have made that more clear because it came up after reading another posters situation here.

Ldij, I am not a grandparent who lost...but I didn't come here to gloat. In court the burden of proving that the visits are in the best interest of the child/children is on the grandparents, so if they can prove it, and it makes the child happy, then what's the big deal?

I really have no agenda...as I know nothing can be done about anything on an internet post. I came here to see other opinions and possibly learn a thing or two...but what I have learned is there are a bunch of angry people who scream "Parents Rights", without considering their children. No one answered any questions I've asked to help me understand their point of view. We are all in agreement that not just any grandparent should be able to petition for visitation, but we disagree that sometimes the bond between the gc and gp should be protected.

Seems to me you're a bunch who have attempted to deny their children the love of a gp(some probably with good reason, but not all) and lost in court. Like it or not court ordered grandparent visitation is growing, but it's with the condition of "the best interest of the child", as it should be.

I think the bitterness comes from parents who feel an ownership and desire to control.

Good day all...now you can sit around and tell eachother what you all want to hear rather than even considering another opinion or idea, and I'll move forward still not understanding your bitterness.

 

[Proserpina]

Rushia, every situation is different. Sorry if you're offended but the fact of the matter is, there are good grandparents and bad, and good parents and bad. Easily offended folks shouldn't read public posts.

My comment regarding the therapist was in general, not directed at a certain case, although maybe I should have made that more clear because it came up after reading another posters situation here.

Ldij, I am not a grandparent who lost...but I didn't come here to gloat. In court the burden of proving that the visits are in the best interest of the child/children is on the grandparents, so if they can prove it, and it makes the child happy, then what's the big deal?

I really have no agenda...as I know nothing can be done about anything on an internet post. I came here to see other opinions and possibly learn a thing or two...but what I have learned is there are a bunch of angry people who scream "Parents Rights", without considering their children. No one answered any questions I've asked to help me understand their point of view. We are all in agreement that not just any grandparent should be able to petition for visitation, but we disagree that sometimes the bond between the gc and gp should be protected.

Seems to me you're a bunch who have attempted to deny their children the love of a gp(some probably with good reason, but not all) and lost in court. Like it or not court ordered grandparent visitation is growing, but it's with the condition of "the best interest of the child", as it should be.

I think the bitterness comes from parents who feel an ownership and desire to control.

Good day all...now you can sit around and tell eachother what you all want to hear rather than even considering another opinion or idea, and I'll move forward still not understanding your bitterness.

You very obviously haven't done much reading here at all.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

What you are ignoring is that the PARENTS have the CONSTITUTIONAL right to parent the children as they see fit. And there seems to be a growing group of grandparents who think NOTHING of running all over the parents' rights.

It would be wonderful if every one just got along, but that is not the case. The general advice: make nice to the parents because if you lose, your chances of EVER seeing the kids or the grandkids has significantly gone down.