Deined unemployment benefits, but feel I was wrongly fired. What should I do?

[toastmn]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan


Given the events below, I had applied for unemployment, but received a Notice of Determination from the state of Michigan today. It stated this:

You were terminated from *** on *** due to disorderly conduct for making a customer feel threatened. This is considered misconduct.

It is found that you were fired for a deliberate disregard of your employer’s interest. You are disqualified for benefits…

My question is do I have grounds for an appeal for a redetermination? If so what steps should I take? And what other things should I know or prepare for?


In early September, I was terminated from my job of 13 years, a regional retail chain, which I was a department manager for. An incident occurred that started with a customer making a purchase in my department that I wrung up. The company has a policy of making every customer give us their contact information to be stored in the system and placed on each receipt. We had begun to try and enforce this policy in the months leading up to this with little exception because the company had recently taken to punishing employees that did not adhere to the policy. This customer refused to give her information and started to become upset, a situation I’ve had to deal with many times over the years. Because of this I made the decision to not pressure her since she chose to pay with a debit card using a PIN for authorization, and purchasing non-refundable items that the store has a high amount of return business on. The member of my staff that was on duty with me at the time was already involved in conversation with the customer, and began to explain the company’s policy while I completed the transaction, letting her know that future purchases would require her contact information. The customer then left the department and headed toward the door, still upset and clearly visible in her body language.

She then returned to the department and addressing my staff member, starting to complain and makes claims that my staff member was assuming she was broke, untrustworthy, and being racist towards her. As this went on for several moments, the customer’s voice kept rising till it was at the point of shouting, and her gesturing and speech was becoming belligerent. Standing nearby and witnessing all of this myself, I then stepped up to the customer’s side, gently touched her left shoulder with my fingertips to get her attention and said quietly, “That’s enough, please stop.” The customer then turned quickly to me, pushed her face in mine, chest bumped me and screamed at me words I could not discern the first half of, but ended clearly with “…I will blow your brains out.”

My reaction to this was shock and fear; I could feel myself going flush and ready to yell back at her without thought. However, I stopped myself from talking as I opened my mouth and pressed my hands down to my sides and stood my ground. I decided I needed to remove this customer from the store as she was now violent. Admitting rather upset and yelling myself, I demanded four times from her “Leave… Leave now… You need to leave,” and so on, consciously choosing to only use those types of statements. I then moved myself toward the counter and was thinking I would need to contact the police, but then noticed an elderly man walk up, who took a black leather wallet from his back pocket and displayed what registered to me as the badge of the local county’s sheriffs’ office or something similar. As the customer was still carrying on, but saying things I did not listen too as officer had my attention, I then said to her twice, “I think we need to listen to this gentleman,” while motioning at his badge. He then instructed her to calm down and made a brushing gesture with his hand towards me to move away. I did so and walked to a far corner of the department.

He then took the customer aside into the adjacent department and spoke with her for several minutes, afterwards he escorted her outside. After a few minutes she came back into the store and went to the store’s main counter in the middle of the facility and asked for the store manager. The officer walked back to her as he was still inside at the time. The manager that she wanted was pointed out to her, as he was then standing in the previously mentioned adjacent department, possibly so during the entire incident as well, helping a customer of his own in a sale. She remained with the office at the edge of the department waiting for several minutes but the a manager didn’t appear to acknowledge her or speak with her as he was still with his customer, so she then left with the officer escorting her out a second time.

Two or three days after the incident, that manager came to me and asked me only three questions about the incident, having me describe what occurred. I gave him a similar but less detailed version of events as I gave above. He left me without asking for more of that, and made the statement to me that we can’t lay hands on a customer. I thought this odd and accusatory as I didn’t feel I tried to physically handle the customer in any way. A few days after that as I arrived to work in the middle of the day, that manager and another store manager under him, the first one being the general manager, took me to the break room and explained to me the customer had made several calls to HQ, complaining about me and my staff member. There were accusations that I threatened the customer both verbally and physically, and this was grounds for my immediate termination. I then stated my protest against this as no one had questioned me in detail about any of this, other then his request for what occurred days prior. I felt I was given little chance to explain anything, and then left.

I returned only once to the store the following week to get my pay stub and request the final one after that is sent to me by mail. This all occurred in the parking lot with the general manager. Without me asking, he confessed to me that to him my termination was given no real explanation from anyone above him, and that his direct boss claimed to not know any reasons as to why either. In addition, he directly stated that to him my termination lacked any of the normal ways of procedure he had seen in the past. He and several other former coworkers that contacted me after my termination all stated they felt what had happened were unfair and unjust of the company. This even included a son of the company's CEO, who told me he argued with his father for 20 minutes about my termination. But the explanation he vaguely gave me was that it had to do with insurance, and that his father felt I was a very good manager and would move onto bigger and better things.

 

[justalayman]

My question is do I have grounds for an appeal for a redetermination?

If that was your first denial, yes.



although this website appears to be quiet on the issue:

http://www.michigan.gov/uia/0,1607,7-118-26831_27122_27127-78576--,00.html


just in case something actually show up for you, what I get is a title:

The Referee Appeal Process


and a blank page from there on.

 

[cbg]

FYI, you may or may not have been unfairly fired, but you were not wrongfully (illegally) fired.

 

[feddey26]

You will definately want to file for an appeal. You will have a hearing then (most likely by phone) and you will be able to tell the Hearing Referee your side and your Employer will also tell theirs. Follow the instructions on your unemployment brocures or denial of benefits letter on how to file an appeal and how to prepare for the hearing. You do not have much time to do it, so do it quickly. You may or may not prevail. It depends on if your employer can prove that you behavior was misconduct for a known policy. In the mean time you MUST continue to submit your weekly documents for job searching into Job Service, if you fail to continue to submit and your benefits are reinstated, you will not get the benefits.

This may also be helpful: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/uia_UC1800_76144_7.pdf

 

[commentator]

Continue to make the weekly certification for weeks as they pass. We assume from your information that this is the initial decision and that you have not yet had the hearing with all parties present and the second decision.

You can request this hearing, and can elect to do it either in person or by conference call.

Somewhere on the decision letter that you received denying benefits, there should be some information about how to file the next appeal, and who to contact. There should at least be an address on the letter where it came from, from the Appeals Tribunal or Board of Appeals or something simillar. You do not have to submit your appeal arguments or make your case in this appeal, but you need to get in your request for it promptly. It must be done within 15 days.

What you do is submit something with all the docket numbers on it, (a copy of the decision letter would suffice if nothing else) and stating that you wish to appeal this decision. You don't have to say why.

They will contact you with the date and time of the hearing once it is scheduled.

If you can't find the address to contact, call the appeals tribunal of the state unemployment system and ask them specifically, Keep a record of when you called and the information you are given.

If you don't get the request for appeal filed within the timely 15 days, the decision stands, there is no further appeal.

Once you've gotten the appeal filed and you are certifying for on going weeks and doing your work search as recommended, the you can start working on the presentation of your case.

You don't have a very good one, frankly. Because in the presence of umpteen witnesses, you did lay paws upon a customer. Even if you can show it was "very gently." Then there was the chest bump. It's hard for either party to do a chest bump unless the other person is really standing their ground. You took it upon yourself to be very protective of your customers and your position.

Was there an employee handbook? What specifically did it say about customers who refused to cooperate with your little information gathering foray? About who was responsible for keeping the sales floor safe from assertive customers?

Why did you take it upon yourself to remove this customer from the store? Were there any policies in place for this type of situation? Was there security that is supposed to deal with belligerant customers? I'd down play that "I stood my ground," as much as possible.
I gather this person was female, you were male? In any case, if you were of opposite sexes, all emphasis should be away from the direct physical confrontation you had with the customer, even if you were outweighed by many pounds.

You yourself admit you were telling her loudly, even yelling at her to leave the store at once. Unless they have it on tape, don't admit you yelled. It doesn't bode well for your case.

The employer is saying that you were terminated because your behavior rose to the level of gross misconduct, in other words, you should have known that the behavior was wrong and you should not have done it even once.

It was not a misconduct that you had been warned about before and were fired for after several warnings. If you have never been disciplined for anything like this before, or anything remotely similar to this in the years you've worked there, you may want to mention this in the hearing.

They're saying that your level of misconduct got above and beyond and that you were over the top in your behavior toward this customer, which may result in the customer suing the store or otherwise cause them problems.

You say you have been a manager for a long time. have you ever had any similiar incidents in your past? How were these handled? I repeat my question, are there any policies in place for exactly how you were supposed to behave? Is there any camera footage of the incident?

All the things you quote about having talked to this one and that one and them saying they agree with you that you weren't treated fairly, even the owner's son, is useless and irrelevant and should be left out. It occurred after the fact of your termination anyhow.

When you were called in and talked to and told you were going to be terminated, you didn't tell them you quit instead, did you? Did you ask for your job back or another chance? It would have been a serious mistake to walk away in a huff saying something like, 'You can't fire me, I quit!" Try to remember what their exact verbiage was when you were terminated.

It sounds very much like this customer complained and threatened to sue the store or something, and you were thrown out as a sacrifice so she could be pacified and told that the person who talked mean to her was fired for doing so. The bad news? They can perfectly legally do this if they want to. There is no valid argument that you were not treated fairly, even if every other person in the company tells you they feel that way.

Your job is to convince the appeals officer that you did not lay hands on violently and verbally intimidate the lady. That you were behaving in the appropriate and accepted manner of a person in your job in this situation. That you had no intention of acting out angrily toward this lady, you did not lose your temper, and that you always kept your employer's best interests in mind during the whole interaction.

If there is video tape, you'll have to direct this explanation around what the tape shows, or the other witnesses testify they saw. But you have to show that your behavior did NOT rise to the level of gross misconduct, that you were doing the appropriate thing under the circumstances, that it was your responsibility to interact with the woman, not simply to call security or the police. Stress that you always did your job to the best of your abilities, that you had been doing this job for many years and had dealt successfully with many such interactions with problem customers, and that you always followed the company rules and procedures to the best of your abilities.

 

[toastmn]

Reactions

I fear you may be right about my case for appeal, that it may not bode well. However, I still want to try and prove that I didn't act out in anger or malice towards the customer. That she threatened me and provoked me into acting out of fear for my safety. I have never been afraid for my life from a death threat before, yet I felt I could not do anything about it since if I did it would have cost me my job to start with. I was also never given the chance to prove to my employer I didn't act with misconduct, and no prior warning that I was to be punished over this incident before I was fired.

As for policies from the handbook. There is only vague reference to polite treatment towards customers, and that they cannot be refused service. There is nothing that states what to do in the case of a violent or belligerent individual causing a scene or endangering others around them that I have ever been aware of. I know that I restrained myself as best I could, and that much of my reaction was due to out right fear. In addition to that I received no assistance from my superior at the store during the incident, even though he was requested to attend to the matter, a typical action by him. As for security, there is no dedicated security, all incidents has to be handled by the sales staff and managers.

As for myself personally having been reprimanded or punished for any such incidents, I have not. I have had to deal with many angry customers over the years. Especially stemming from the root issue in this case, refusal to give contact information for the receipts. It was a very common thing to have a customer once in awhile refuse and get upset about it, accusing the company of telemarketing and/or selling the customer information. This was by far the worst incident I've have ever experienced.

Can you give me any references that showed how people in similar situations have had to deal with this?

 

[jiggy78]

You don't need them. Follow Commendator's advice.

 

[csi7]

Follow Commentator's advice.

This individual has been in the unemployment compensation field for a number of years and is known to be fair in providing options.

This is your case, and you need to work with the evidence, information, and timeline for your case specifically.

I have filed three separate unemployment compensation appeals (for different companies), and was successful in all of the appeals, by following Commentator's advice to stay calm, polite, and professional, and to listen to the hearing officer, they are the ones who determine the case, not the employer, not the employee who was terminated.

Best wishes.

 

[commentator]

Thank you., glad I was able to help someone

Now, OP, listen to me very carefully. DO NOT get in front of a hearing officer and say you were "afraid for your life from a death threat." This is unmitigated b.s. in my opinion, and I have heard many many of these stories. In the first place, this woman (we're assuming the sexes here, you're male, she was female?) did not know your name or your home address. She did not know you from Adam, and any death threat she made was very unspecific. Did she pull out a weapon?

Quote:
My reaction to this was shock and fear; I could feel myself going flush and ready to yell back at her without thought. However, I stopped myself from talking as I opened my mouth and pressed my hands down to my sides and stood my ground. I decided I needed to remove this customer from the store as she was now violent. Admitting rather upset and yelling myself, I demanded four times from her “Leave… Leave now… You need to leave,” and so on, consciously choosing to only use those types of statements. I then moved myself toward the counter and was thinking I would need to contact the police, but then noticed an elderly man walk up, who took a black leather wallet from his back pocket and displayed what registered to me as the badge of the local county’s sheriffs’ office or something similar. As the customer was still carrying on, but saying things I did not listen too as officer had my attention, I then said to her twice, “I think we need to listen to this gentleman,” while motioning at his badge. He then instructed her to calm down and made a brushing gesture with his hand towards me to move away. I did so and walked to a far corner of the department.

This is all pretty poor explanation for your behavior to a person who's heard many stories of confrontations. Remember, it is not her fault she made you angry, you were always free to act in a professional manner, not become angry, or make an unwise move. "I was too angry to control myself" or "she provoked me" isn't a good excuse, no matter WHAT the person said to you or about you. Why wasn't going to contact the police your very first action if you really felt so threatened?

"I decided I needed to remove this person from the store" you say. Was this your job? You decided, but it was probably a very unwise idea to decide that. Demanding anything from her, treating her in anything but a polite and professional manner isn't something you should say anything about in your version of how this all went down. Hopefully they don't have video or witnesses who are going to describe everything that happened.

As I said, avoid admitting wrongdoing, and there's a bunch of admitted wrongdoing in this paragraph. you do not have to go into this much detail of your behavior, and you certainly do not need to justify yourself. Avoid all mention of how angry you became, avoid all mention of how you touched her in any way, even it if was a "brushing" motion. As I said, the chest bump isn't a good thing to throw in if it is avoidable.

You can certainly present your material in a way that will avoid incriminating yourself, and portray yourself and your actions n the best possible light without hurting the truth too badly, but you definitely need to understand that blaming the customer for forcing you to behave the way you did isn't the way to go. Also, minimizing the actual physical contact with her is going to set off alarms in other people's minds too. Just don't admit to shoving or chest bumping with her at all, even if it was "very gently."


Quote: I was also never given the chance to prove to my employer I didn't act with misconduct, and no prior warning that I was to be punished over this incident before I was fired.

Remember, "at-will" state. They do not require that you have to be given a chance to prove to your employer that this was not misconduct. They can walk in and fire you for wearing green socks today. Don't bring this up in a hearing. You are not required to be given warnings by anything even if it's in the policy handbook.

For you to be denied for unemployment purposes, remember, your behavior has to be considered "Gross misconduct." For gross misconduct, you can rightfully be fired, even if you only did it once and had no prior warnings that it was unacceptable behavior. For example, if you had punched the woman customer out and left her lying on the floor that would definitely and clearly have been a firing offense, whether they'd warned you about it or not.

 

[toastmn]

More questions

As it has been told to me now, not to mention any physical contact. Would that also mean any descriptions of physical contact the customer made of me, given that she chest bumped me when she made her threat?

Also, If I get asked if I made any physical contact with the customer what should my response be?

 

[Antigone*]

As it has been told to me now, not to mention any physical contact. Would that also mean any descriptions of physical contact the customer made of me, given that she chest bumped me when she made her threat?

Also, If I get asked if I made any physical contact with the customer what should my response be?

If you get asked about physical contact tell the truth.

 

[toastmn]

Reaction to certain advice

Quote:
Now, OP, listen to me very carefully. DO NOT get in front of a hearing officer and say you were "afraid for your life from a death threat." This is unmitigated b.s. in my opinion, and I have heard many many of these stories. In the first place, this woman (we're assuming the sexes here, you're male, she was female?) did not know your name or your home address. She did not know you from Adam, and any death threat she made was very unspecific. Did she pull out a weapon?

Several years ago, another manager was dealing with an irate customer, also received a death threat. Customer left after threatening to shoot said manager. The customer was then spotted in the parking lot getting something from their trunk and pacing nervously. Several people indicated that it appeared the customer was preparing a gun. Police was called, and many of us were afraid. So its not been beyond belief to me that a customer would do harm to any of the employees out of anger. And the thought ran through my head at the time of my incident that anyone, no matter who they are, can have a gun and can use a gun. Even if she didn't know who I was, I was wearing a name badge with my full name, and the receipt I had to give her printed out my full name as well. As for not knowing where I lived, she did know where I worked, so I was not hard to find.

 

[commentator]

Once again, do not incriminate yourself needlessly. I repeat, were there other witnesses, was there video of the incident? I repeat, are you male, and was this customer female?

Since you are the one doing the appealing, you will probably be giving your version of events first. Sometimes the employer or the employer's representative presents first. In either case, you will be asked to present your version of what happened without interruption. They will be asked to present the company's version of what happened, the reason they found it appropriate to terminate you.

Then both sides will be given the opportunity to question each other. If the testimony is very unclear or rambles far off topic, the hearing officer may intervene, may tell either party they need to move on or get to the point. They may ask questions if something isn't clear to them. They are trying to collect enough information from both of you to determine whether this is misconduct under the unemployment laws.

If the hearing officer or the employer asks you if you had actual physical contact with the customer, you need to respond honestly. But there is nothing that says you have to throw it all in before anyone asks about it. The more elaborately you tell the story and excuse your every action, the less credible you become.

You are not here to win an argument with me about this issue. I am just telling you, and I repeat, do not try to justify your actions by saying you were so afraid of the person you just had to do what you did, or you were frightened to the point of behaving irrationally because of the death threats the person was making. I don't care whether someone else was killed on the job or not, in the ear of a dispassionate and unbiased listener, it is not going to sound like you were reasonably in fear of your life in the situation you describe.

The hearing officer is NOT going to want to hear about how someone you work with had a bad experience several years ago and the experience scarred you emotionally, justifying your behavior. You can say briefly that the person was acting in such a way that you were concerned for the safety of yourself or your staff or the other customers, but frankly, even that is going to be hard to get to fly.

So do not try to claim you did what you did because you were so frightened you lost your reason or that you thought she might have a gun. Getting her to leave the store quietly, then notifying the police would have been your first reaonable responsible action in this case and if you were this frightened, not confronting her, getting in her face, not backing down, hollering at her to listen to this man.....

Give a very brief, succinct description of what happened. Point out that you tried to act in the best interests of the company and your co workers and customers.
That you have never been questioned about your behavior and judgment in your dealing with irate customers before.

Do not go into too much detail. Remember, your employer may not even show up to contest the claim, but even so, if the hearing officer feels that this was gross misconduct (overreaction, maybe? Bullying?) on your part, you could still be denied, even if they don't show up and present anything from their side at all about what happened. Remember, the woman in question is not going to be in this hearing. They are not trying you in court for your actions. They are just hearing the story of what happened from your point of view and then from the employer's point of view, and determining if your behavior rose to the level of gross misconduct.