How are GS (Government) positions filled?

[Loredrin]

What is the name of your state? Indiana

Here is something I recently encountered.

I applied for a "Explosives Handler GS-5" position back in July, 2007. I had also told an old army buddy about it, and he applied as well. Both of us get refered to the selecting agent. And then neither of us heard anything till November. That's when my buddy was called and told to come in for his physical and orientation (there was no interview). I however was never called.

The job itself is manufacture and warehouse/shipping of munitions for the Army. (It's a Navy base but the job is for the Army). My friend has been a security guard for the past 13 years. He has no manufacturing or warehouse experience. I have 3 years of warehouse experience and almost 7 years of manufacturing experience working for General Electric. My friend has a general discharge from the Army. I have an honorable.

Shortly after my friend was selected they posted the same job again. I was somewhat confused and called the number given. I was told that the roster for the other posting had been exhausted. And I was told to apply to the new posting. This confused me as I'd been refereed on the first posting, but not called. But I went ahead and did. My status (on the CPOL website) once again says I've been refereed.

An interesting additional bit of information. When my friend went in for his orientation he met a few of his fellow new hires. Two of those were "just out of high school" age people. Both of whom just happened to have relatives that have been working at the base for 20+ years. And even more interesting. NONE of the people in his group went through an interview. My question is how would those two have more experience for the job than I? Let alone enough to cancel out my 5 point vet pref? And is it normal for GS positions to be filled without any interviews?

The first hiring round brought in 20-30 people (this is the one my friend was hired in) and the round I'm currently refered to is suppose to hire 46 people. I'm waiting to see if I'll be passed over on this round as well, before seeking any kind of legal help. Just wondering if I have grounds for it now? Or if there is something about this that I'm missing? I thought hiring for government jobs was suppose to be based off skill/work history. And not who you knew (like so many private sector jobs).

 

[cbg]

Are you perhaps under the impression that they are required to interview you because you have experience? Or that they are required to hire the most qualified person?

Because neither is true.

 

[fairisfair]

I thought hiring for government jobs was suppose to be based off skill/work history. And not who you knew (like so many private sector jobs).

Did George B. tell you that????

 

[Loredrin]

Hey ya CBG,

Here is a thread I posted on another site. There is some information there. If you have a chance please check it out (namely the replies from Dave_M) and see what you think.


http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/407191012/m/9820095161001


Thanks for your time!

 

[cbg]

I think that the answers you get are only as good as the information you provide.

I still maintain that no one is entitled to an interview for any job. Any employer can get as many as 300 applications for a single opening (and I am not exaggerating even slightly - if anything I'm underestimating.). There is no possible way every qualified applicant in a pool that large can be interviewed.

 

[Betty]

Did George B. tell you that????

LOL, Betty

 

[mitousmom]

I'm waiting to see if I'll be passed over on this round as well, before seeking any kind of legal help. Just wondering if I have grounds for it now? Or if there is something about this that I'm missing? I thought hiring for government jobs was suppose to be based off skill/work history. And not who you knew (like so many private sector jobs).

I'm not sure on what basis you intend to pursue legal action. The information you have provided doesn't indicate any apparent violation.

Most GS-5 grade level positions in the federal government are entry level jobs that don't require much in the way of experience, so lots of experience is not always a plus. Interviews are not required for selection. Its conceivable that you were not selected for something in your background or work history.

There a several ways to apply for a federal job. Each way results in a different certificate of eligibles on which the applicants compete for selection. The selecting official can select anyone from the certificate. It's possible that the two recent high school graduates came from a different certificate that had nothing to do with you.

I don't think you have enough information on which to base a decision to take legal action. I suggest that you contact the staff person who processed the applicants to confirm that your name was referred to the selecting official and that you were given your veteran's preference and to ask why you weren't selected.

 

[Loredrin]

To mitousmom,


I did contact the office. This job was (both times) posted in the local paper. It references going to the CPOL website and applying for the job there. The lady I spoke to said that was the only way you could apply. If you didn't have access to the internet she recommended going to your local library (to use their public computers) to apply.

When I called back after the second posting (since I was refered in the first and not called) she said that the first roster had been exhausted. As I said before that confused me. Since how could that roster have been "exhausted" when I was refered to it (meaning I met the requirements to be considered for the job). I have since been refered to the second posting. If there was something wrong the first time, why am I on the second roster?

As I said I'm not considering any legal action atm. Just wanted to see what others in the internet community thought. I'm waiting to see if this second roster gets "exhausted" without me being called before I do anything.

The lady at the office said she could not tell me anything about where I am in the hiring process (not sure if this is policy or she simply didn't know). She said just to keep watching the CPOL website for updates to my application status. Well neither of the postings have been updated. Both still just say I've been "refereed". And the first posting was back in July (end date was in early August). And that confuses me as well. If the first roster was "exhausted" then why wasn't the job/my application status for that posting updated? Esp since they are refering people to the website to keep tabs on their status.

 

[enjay]

The last opening in my office (federal government) was for a GS-13 position and we had about 100 applicants. We interviewed 3.

The federal government is only a little different than the private sector. HR gets the applications and reviews them. Anyone who meets the minimum requirements and who also submitted everying requested correctly and by the closing date of the announcement makes the cert list. HR then fowards everything from the people on the cert list to the manager for the position being announced. The manager goes through them and decides who he wants to interview and hire.

Veterans do get some preference, but ultimately the person who gets the job is the one the manager feels is best suited for it.

 

[Loredrin]

Hey ya Enjay,

Few questions for you, if you have time.

1. Are GS (or WS, WG, etc) positions usually filled without any interviews? No one that was hired was interviewed. Everyone was like my friend. Just called and told to come in for a physical and orientation.

2. How could a person just out of high school have more experience than someone who has several years of manufacturing (and warehouse) experience in a manager's eyes?

 

[enjay]

I'm not in HR, but I've been in the govt a long time and have applied for many different positions.

Are GS (or WS, WG, etc) positions usually filled without any interviews? No one that was hired was interviewed. Everyone was like my friend. Just called and told to come in for a physical and orientation.

Not usually for entry into government service. Generally people are interviewed, but in an entry level position like the one you applied for it would not be as necessary as it would for an office position. However, once you are in it is pretty common for people within the same agency to obtain positions simply on the basis of their application and without going through the interviewing process. The person who looks best on paper gets the job.

How could a person just out of high school have more experience than someone who has several years of manufacturing (and warehouse) experience in a manager's eyes?

The person just out of high school may have put together a better application package. In my agency, applicants have to complete KSAs (Knowledge, Skills, and Abilities), which are essentially essay questions where you talk about your accomplishments and why you should be selected. They carry a tremendous amount of weight. I'm sure DoD must have something similar.

 

[Loredrin]

Thanks Enjay!

There were no KSAs for the job. The CPOL website takes your resume and submits it to a program called RESUMIX. This database assigns a numerical value to the experience and education (I'm a HS grad and have an A.A.S. in Networking)(And no, I no longer have interest in a job in the computer field). In addition to the skills listed in my original post, I held a Top Secret clearance in the Army (this job requires a Secret clearance). All of this was included in the resume I've submitted on CPOL. And further I have no criminal background (only 2 speeding tickets in my life, and those are over 10 years old).

The fact that two people just out of high school were hired over me raised a flag. The fact that both of those people happen to have relatives, that have worked at the base for a long time, raised it even higher. And the fact that my friend (who had no work experience relating to the job) who has a General Discharge (vs. my Honorable) raised it even higher.

Do you think that someone just out of high school could "pad" their resume enough to place them above my education/experience?

 

[enjay]

Honestly, it seems that you are overqualified. GS-5 is entry level and they may have thought that you wouldn't stick around long.

Think about it. Pretend you had a masters degree and were applying for a position as a receptionist. Are they going to hire you knowing that you'll bolt as soon as something better comes along, or would they hire the person they think would stay in the position?

 

[Loredrin]

Hey ya again Enjay,

The only thing is being over qualified wouldn't apply to this job. It's a temporary posting - not to exceed 1 year (can be renewed up to 4 times - 4 years). And my friend said that during his orientation they gave him information on websites and contacts to start applying for perm positions. So they expect you to move on out of there. I'm just trying to get my foot in the door here. As you said before once your in you can go after other jobs your qualified for, most without even having to interview.

Gonna post the Vacancy Announcement for the most recent posting. I can also post the one from July if you want, although it's pretty much the same.

<i>
DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
Vacancy Announcement Number: NCBG07409331D

Opening Date: November 27, 2007 Closing Date: December 03, 2007

Position: Explosives Handler, WG-6501-5
Salary: $15.65 - $18.26 Hourly
Place of Work: Crane Army Ammo Activity-SJMCN;Manufacturing & Engineering Dir - ME;Depot Ops Dir-DO;Ammunition Surveillance Div - DOQ;AND Storage Div-DOS; Crane, IN

Position Status: Temporary Position Not to Exceed: 1 years -- Intermittent
Number of Vacancy: Many

DEPARTMENT OF ARMY RANKED ONE OF THE TOP TEN FEDERAL WORKPLACES FOR 2007!

Duties: Requires manual dexterity,ability to follow instructions,remain alert under stressful conditions.Follow written/oral instructions & ability to understand/comply without hesitation.Work requires acute continual alertness to details to insure safety & quality are strictly observed.Must be able to use measuring instruments (calibrated ruler,depth micrometer,stop watches,vernier calipers, etc).Use simple blueprints/written specifications.Requires knowledge in identifying/verifying discrepant/damage conditions of material/stock by visual inspection, or counting items.Requires knowledge of ammo/explosives, storage/magazine regs & knowledge of different condition codes for materiels.Requires thorough knowledge of Center’s regulations for handling of explosives.Must pass all physical & mental stability tests. Will be subject to periodic recertification as to mental & physical condition. Must be able to operate hand trucks,transporters,forklifts & other types of material handling equipment.

About the Position: MISSION STATEMENT CRANE: To perform the receipt, storage, issue, inventory accuracy and preparation for shipment functions. To plan and direct the Activitys ammunition surveillance program. To produce, for peacetime and replenishment, and renovate conventional ammunition, missiles and related components. Perform manufacturing, engineering, and product assurance in support of production. Plan, program, manage, receive, renovate, store, issue, ship, and/or demilitarize and dispose of conventional ammunition, missiles, and their associated components. Test, assemble, disassemble and screen missiles and components.
The immediate supervisor and selecting official for DO, DOS and DOQ will be a Supply Management Officer. The immediate supervisor and selecting official for ME will be the Supervisory Program Manager.

Who May Apply: (Click on Who May Apply)

All U. S. citizens and Nationals with allegiance to the United States.

Qualifications:
Trades and Labor
PHYSICAL EFFORThysical demands are arduous. At times it is necessary to lift heavy items for long periods of time at production rates. Kneeling, standing, bending and other awkward positions are necessary at times, as well as pushing or pulling of heavily loaded carts and/or hand trucks. Some areas will require the use of respirators.
WORKING CONDITIONS:Working conditions vary w/type of assignment and range from those in well-lighted, well-ventilated areas, to noisy, steam-heated areas with excess moisture/heat; and unheated and poorly illuminated magazines and warehouses. Work may be performed outdoors in various weather conditions in hazardous waste areas governed by EPA requirements being exposed to dirt, noise, dust, fumes, extensive standing, walking, heavy lifting and repetitive body movements. Subject to danger from slipping and falling objects. Worker may be exposed to danger of explosion and fire while working with explosives, chemicals, and loaded ammunition; also exposed to cuts and bruises, skin irritations and rashes, burns, nausea, fractures of hand and feet, and loss of limbs to fatalities.

OTHER1)This announcement closes at 12 midnight EST on the date listed above(2)If you have questions regarding building your resume in Armys Resume Builder, sending your resume or accessing ANSWER, please e-mail your questions to [email protected] (3)Position is in a bargaining unit(4)THIS POSITION IS SUBJECT TO LAUTENBERG AMENDMENT TO THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968(5)Pre appointment physical exam is required, and annual physicals are required(6)Position is subject to drug testing(7)This position is covered by the Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Program.The incumbent is required to sign a DA Form 5019-R (Condition of Employment for Certain Positions Identified as Critical Under the Drug Abuse Testing Program) and must pass urinalysis testing, as required prior to appointment and periodically thereafter(8)Selectees will be required to obtain a explosives cert, forklift cert and/or respirator certification w/out restrictions.Employer will provide training and help in obtaining certification,but the ability to obtain these certifications is a requirement for employment(9)Heavy lifting of 45+ lbs required(10)Some night shift work is possible(11)DO will have an alternative work week that consist of a Wed thru Saturday work week(12)These are term/intermittent positions(13)Positions will be filled in 1 yr increments,but will not exceed a total of 4 yrs(14)Selections will be made for the Depot Operations Directorate - DO, Ammunition Surveillance Div - DOQ, Storage Division - DOS, and Manufacturing & Engineering Dir - ME.

Ability to do the work of the position under normal supervision.
The experience described in your resume will be evaluated and screened for the Office of Personnel Management's basic qualifications requirements, and the skills needed to perform the duties of this position as described in this vacancy announcement.

Other Information:

To successfully claim veteran's preference, your resume/supplemental data must clearly show your entitlement. Please review the information listed under the Other Requirements link on this announcement or review our on-line Job Application Kit.
Multiple positions will be filled from this announcement.
May require overtime work.
May require shift work and/or work on rotating shifts to provide coverage on evenings, weekends, holidays and in other situations.
The Department of Defense (DoD) policy on employment of annuitants issued March 18, 2004 will be used in determining eligibility of annuitants. The DoD policy is available on http://www.cpms.osd.mil/fas/staffing/pdf/rem_ann.pdf
Schedule tour of duty will require evenings, weekends and holiday work hours.
This position is a TERM position. It is temporary and may be extended up to a maximum of four years.
Permanent Change of Station (PCS) expenses are not authorized.

Other Advantages: Army employees at the Crane Naval Base enjoy other privileges such as use of the Gym, golf course, summer youth care center, cafeteria facilities and club, employee assistance program.

Other Requirements:

Must be able to obtain and maintain a Secret security clearance.
A medical examination is required.
This position is subject to the Lautenberg Amendment/Domestic Violence Misdemeanor Amendment to the Gun Control Act of 1968.
Must comply with Drug Abuse Testing Program requirements.
You will be required to provide proof of U.S. Citizenship.
License/Certification: Explosives Cert and/or Respirator Cert and/or Respirator License
Male applicants born after December 31, 1959 must complete a Pre-Employment Certification Statement for Selective Service Registration.
Direct Deposit of Pay is Required.
Failure to provide all of the required information as stated in the vacancy announcement may result in an ineligible rating or may affect the overall rating.
One year trial/probationary period may be required.

How to Apply:

Resumes must be received by the closing date of this announcement.
Self-nomination must be submitted by the closing date.
Resume must be on file in our centralized database.
Announcements close at 12:00am (midnight) Eastern Time. </i>

Note: They called and asked me for a copy of my DD-214 for the first posting in July. So I do have my vet pref.

 

[mitousmom]

I don't find any qualifications( quals), as in knowledge, skills & abilities (KSAs), in the job announcement except for physical requirements for the job. The announcement notes that once selected, the employees must gain certification in several area, but those skills aren't pre-employment qualifications for the job.

This appears to truly be an entry level job without any KSAs. I'm not familiar with RESUMIX or how the the Army uses it. But, I've worked with other application screening software and if education and experience aren't quals for the job and aren't weighted, the program doesn't assign any points for either.

It's odd that the job duties statement includes a bunch of requirements,"manual dexterity, ability to follow instructions, remain alert under stressful conditions; . . . [the ability] to use measuring instruments. . . [to] use simple blueprints/written specifications . . . knowledge of ammo/explosives, storage/magazine regs & knowledge of different condition codes for materiels, etc., but none of this shows up in the quals.

I would suggest that your resume specifically show that you have experience that meets any of the requirements in the job duties and experience that shows you have forklift, explosives or respirator experience. Computer application screening software searches resumes for key words based on the job requirements. A positive hits increases your score. So your application should include likely key words.

You should also submit your proof of veterans preference with each application. Since you were told to reapply, you can't assume anything in your first application package will be transferred to your second application.