Husband & Wife Conflicting UI Determination

[cehaney]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Georgia

My question involves unemployment benefits for the state of: Georgia

My wife and I were hired together as Team Truck Drivers, all work info is Identical. (we drove together) Pay, reason for leaving, file dates, all documents support duplicate information. My wifes phone review was schedualed one week before mine. We gave duplicate info during both interviews. She was approved, I was denied!

1st Question... Why!!!

2nd Question... If the only difference between our claims is male and female, is this discrimination?

I have filed for an appeal... what next?

Any suggestions on how to prepare.... If the facts were sufficient to rule in my wifes favor, they should be for mine as well.... should that not set the only precedent I need?

Thanks for any adviceWhat is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

 

[commentator]

Whoa, whoa! Hold up here. What you have told us is not nearly enough to make an even approximate answer. Okay, you and your wife both signed up to drive for a trucking firm. How long did you work for this firm?

There could be an issue of what quarters of wages were used to set up unemployment claims. It would be possible your wife had a claim to set up, and you did not. The claim sets up in GA based on the first four of the last five quarters. So this is going to very relevant how long you actually worked for this trucking firm. When you filed claims, did you both receive monetary eligibility documents when you filed saying you were eligible for benefits based on your earnings?

Next issue. You were, I assume, both terminated or laid off or let go from the trucking firm. What was the reason for this?

After you had your telephone question sessions, the employer was contacted on both your claims, separately, not together, and they provided a response to questions about your termination. It can be assumed that two different ajudicators made these initial decisions. The fact that one was approved and one denied is not at this point any blatant evidence of sexual discrimination on the part of the department. You don't even know what your employer told these people. There's no way one ajudicator will know whether the other ajudicator approved the claim for a person they were working with. These ajudicators may not even be in the same part of the state.

Assuming you both had monetary eligibility for claims, you both signed up for claims, and now you have received a letter saying your claim has been denied...okay? For what reason?

Okay, she has received a letter saying her claim was approved, correct? For what reason?

If your letter says your claim has been denied on initial decision, there will be information about how to file an appeal. You've done this, I gather. Then soon you will be set up with a hearing to appeal the decision. You need to tell us more about the circumstances of the termination, what happened, what was said on your last day of work by your employer. It is possible that they are claiming you did something misconduct related that your wife did not do. It will all come out in appeal.

It is possible that the information that got your wife approved on the initial decision will be appealed by the employer. Then she will have a hearing and the whole appeal process the same as you.

You still need to certify each week, though your claim was not approved and you are not receiving benefits, until you figure out what the reason is, and get an appeal in place. If a mistake has been made somewhere or you win an appeal, you will be back paid only for the weeks you have certified.

There are way too many possibilities here. It may be that you worked as an independent contractor during the last two years, while your wife worked for a covered employer. If this is the case, regardless of why you were let go from this job, you won't have a claim and she will. It is possible.. oh well, just provide a little more information, so we can look at this a little further and try to suggest ways to go.

 

[cehaney]

More Info post 1 0f 2

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I have never been more humbled in my life! This whole experience of trying to make ends meet has been very difficult for myself and my family. I am holding on to my sanity by a thread... Seems I have been dealing with a lot of Pea****s lately... looks like you truly want to help and IMHO that makes you a Ray of Sunshine in an otherwise day of gloom!

Let me try and answer your questions (respectfully)

First... the fact that you are implying there may be a difference in my wifes circumstances and mine, tells me that I am not communicating myself clearly and knowing that is helpful too me... I will try again.

My wife & I were hired as a team... The job requires two people at the same time to work together. We are truck drivers driving the same truck... I drive the truck, she sleeps in the truck, she drives the truck I sleep in the truck. We go to work together, we go home together, The pay is divided btwn us...employment dates Identical, money Identical, paperwork Identical, UI Claims Identical, Monetary Benefit Determinations Identical, Reason for leaving, Identical.... When I prepared my wifes UI Claim I took my name off my claim and put hers in it's place.... LITTERLY!!!! (get it)

No, we left on our own, at no fault of our own. (below you will see the Seperation Statement I prepared for both my wife and myself.) I just changed the names and SS#'s

Worked 1 year 2 1/2 months ( exact same Hire and seperation dates as wife)

Monetary Benefits Determination.... Identical 3rd, 4th 2008, 1st, 2nd 2009 money exactly the same right down to the penny! (split even...remember)

Wifes Claim Determination: Approved

You quit your job because you were not paid as agreed. The facts show that this change was a significant change in your employment agreement. Your reason for leaving is concidered to be a good reason connected with the work. Therefore you can be paid unemployment benefits.

My Claim Determination: Denied

You quit your job because you were not paid as agreed. The facts show that this change was not a significant change in your employment agreement. Your reason for leaving is not concidered to be a good reason connected with the work. Therefore you can not be paid unemployment benefits.

My claim was reviewed almost 2 wks after my wifes, even though they were filed together. Her appeal date has expired!

When I filed my appeal... I added more documentation and arguments to support a 60% decrease in work from Jan to July 2009. I don't think I should have to fight more because my wifes Claim should be the Precedent... After understanding that we worked together as a team in the same job. How can one be a good reason and the other not. The only difference is our sex... Note... *I can see after reading that comment that I look like I want some grand stand law suit... that is far from the truth... It is only a profound way to express the only significant difference I can see in our claims!

After reading The Seperation Statement I used for both of us, you may agree or not agree with either determination. The fact that they conflict is proof enough for a difference of opinioun. However, If my denial is in question and my wifes approval is final... should'nt her claim set the Precedent for my reversal? Is'nt there some legal reference to support that argument?

If so, can I and should I subpeona all of my wifes info from the Georgia, dol.

Finaly....If I could not get "you" to understand (Identical) how do I convince the appeals board?

Thank you so very, very much for any attention you give this. I know you are busy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

See post number #2 for Seperation Statement (to long for this post)

 

[cehaney]

More Info Post 2 of 2 Separation Statement

This is the second part of previous post! More Info 2 of 2

Note: I changed the personal Info to: XXXXXXXXX

Seperation Statement
For both Mr. & Mrs. XXXXX X. XXXXXXX

XXXXX XXXXXX (my Name)
SS# XXX-XX-XXXX

Please note that my wife and I were Recruited together from Florida as “Team Drivers” for JC Fleming. We both worked the same dates and filed for Unemployment Benefits at the same time and our Claims are “Identical”. However, for whatever reason my claim wound up a week apart. My wife’s claim was reviewed on Tuesday, Jan 5th. If you need to refer to her claim for any comparison reasons, please see the following;

XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX (wifes name)
SS# XXX-XX-XXXX

XXXXXXX XXXXX CEU/UI Claims Examiner
　
Separation Statement
Our reasons for leaving XXXXXXXX are based on work related reasons, Not Personal reasons or conflicts. Both my wife and I loved our job and would still be there if the working conditions and agreements did not change so dramatically.

The reason we had to leave XXXXXXX was based on a Material Change in our Work Conditions and a Material Change in our Work Agreement at No Fault of Our Own!
　
My wife and I were both Recruited and Hired as residents of Florida to be Team Truck Drivers for a Dedicated Route that was based out of Georgia. Our Route went from the XXX Plant in XXXX, XX to the XXXX Plant in XXXXX, XX. (back and forth and no where else) The job was for 5 to 6 days of Driving and 1 to 2 days off.
　
The Compensation Package given to us consisted of a split pay of .46 cents per mile (.23 cents each) and a variety of miscellaneous pays, such as breakdown pay, *layover pay, truck wash pay, etcetera…

Most important was that we were given a Guarantee pay of $XXXXXX per week, each. (This was paid regardless of whether we worked or not, as long as the reason was no fault of our own, examples would be plant closures, partial shut downs, lack of work, etcetera)

While Driving our Dedicated Route (24 hours a day) we lived in the company truck! Our home was in Florida and during our off time, we would have to acquire our own place to stay at our own expense. This was no problem for 1 or 2 days. However, starting in November of 2008 lack of work and Plant shut downs became more frequent and we found ourselves not working for weeks at a time. XXXXXXXX Company forced us to stay in Georgia during these lack of work times. We were required to check in periodically, every day and in turn forced to be on call at all times, close and ready for work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This would drag on for weeks at a time. We never would know if we were going to work or not, from one day to the next. Who could live like that! (we were not hired to work under those conditions) We were not even able to return home (Florida) during those times for fear of losing our pay and/or our job! We tried to remain positive and continued to work under those conditions because part of our Compensation Package included the weekly guarantee of pay. This helped to pay accommodations and expenses’ during those forced down times. My wife & I stuck it out! (always hoping the company would resolve it’s problems)

The lack of work and extended periods of down time continued into December, then January, then with no warning, no meeting, no discussion, as of February 1st they stopped paying the $XXXXX guarantee, reduced our mileage pay, they reduced our breakdown hourly pay, they reduced our truck wash pay, they reduced all of our miscellaneous pay and they stopped paying for hotel accommodations when drivers were required to *layover as of no fault of their own. Which forced drivers to stay dormant in their trucks 10, 12, 14, 24 plus hours and share a bed designed for one person! No one even found out they did this until we all saw our pay stubs and noticed that they stopped paying us!

Because of the refusal to pay the Guarantee, lack of work and cut backs. Beginning in February of 2009 All of the dedicated teams… collectively asked the company for layoffs. This would allow for some of us to collect unemployment benefits until the company sorted out it’s problems. (we asked every month for the 6 ½ months that we remained) They refused to even consider the Idea, even though their drivers were going weeks at a time with No work and No pay!

My wife & I still believed in the Company and continued to stick it out, even though The Working Conditions had changed so dramatically.

The Lack of work, reduced pay or no pay at all, continued through February, then March, then April, then May, then June, then into July, My wife & I continued to stick it out. Still believing the Company would some how work out it’s problems and restore us to the original working agreement and conditions that we had when were hired! We (the Drivers) again in July, as we all did every previous month asked the company for layoffs; again they refused to even discuss the issue and informed all of us if we did not like it… “We were free to leave on our own with no compensation or benefits“.

My wife and I firmly believe that we exhausted every effort reasonably possible to keep our jobs and support this company during their troubled times for the remaining 6 ½ months of our 14 month total employment. The change in Working Conditions had become so unbearable and the company’s refusal to except the responsibility for the welfare of their employees, as well as the lack of work and the dramatic change in working conditions & agreements could no longer be endured. The companies refusal to jointly cooperate in discussing alternative solutions to keep their drivers working and/or paid has forced my wife & I to lose confidence in the Company’s ability to resolve their issues.

At no fault of our own we were forced to terminate our employment and to return to our home and seek employment elsewhere.
Please note… My wife and I still tried to stick it out for one more month but were forced to give our two weeks notice in late July and depart in mid August of 2009. We of course made ourselves available for work at all times!
　
To Summarize:
All of the pay Agreements and Working Conditions the company promised when they recruited us from Florida were eliminated/or changed with no warning.

A. Change in Working Conditions
1. Lack of work
2. Reduced Hours.
3. Complete Shut downs for weeks, with no pay
4. Required to be on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week!
5. Both Drivers forced to remain in truck for extended periods of time during layovers, requiring drivers to share a bed designed for one person.

B. Change in Working Agreement
1. Guaranteed $XXXXXX weekly pay eliminated
2. Mileage Pay reduced
3. Breakdown Pay reduced
4. Truck wash Pay eliminated or reduced
5. All remaining miscellaneous Pay Reduced

Note: The dramatic reduction in pay is easily seen in the quarterly pay breakdown you listed on the Monetary Benefit Determination form you sent to both my wife and I!
It very clearly shows a roughly 40% decrease in our pay directly corresponding to exact timeline given in the above statement.

My wife and I firmly believe that we exhausted every effort reasonably possible to keep our jobs and support this company during their troubled times for the remaining 6 ½ months of our 14 month total employment.

At no fault of our own we were forced to terminate our employment and to return to our home and seek employment elsewhere.

If you should have any further questions, please call.

Thank you for your time,

XXXXXXX XXXXXX
(XXX) XXX-XXXX

 

[pattytx]

I would like to help, but those TWO posts are WAY too long. If it takes two posts, you KNOW it's way too long. Maybe someone else will have time to read all of that.

 

[commentator]

I understand that you are going through a rough time, and that you are making every effort to support your family and to do a good job at all you do.

HOWEVER.....you must make two huge leaps here. Okay, in the first place....you and your wife do not have the same social security number. Each claim filed is a separate entity. NO case sets precedent for another case even if they are filed against the same employer. Georgia unemployment law is the only precedent setting entity.

When a claim is taken it is referred to an ajudicator. This ajudicator will be somewhere in the state. Possibly nowhere in the area of your wife's ajudicator. NO WAY are these claims going to cross match, be discussed together, or have any contact on each other. (Except they will be billed to the same employer account by the charging unit.) You should drop all mention of the wife's claim. I know this is hard for you.

Now, when Patti says she doesn't want to wade through all this verbiage, take a hint. Your ajudicator doesn't want to do it either. When you said you provided additional material on your claim that was left off what your wife submitted...duh!.Too much information probably caused your denial. Hers was more succinct, it answered the questions, and met the criteria. yours brought in stuff that caused questions, made obfuscations that hid the pertinent details.

DO NOT submit anything like this information in writing if you can avoid it...(to: Georgia board of appeals. From: John Q Claimant....Re: yada yada to the good members of the jury be it resolved that**************.) They hate it when someone who is not familiar with unemployment law tries to play attorney and argue them into a corner. You will always betray your ignorance of the law at some point, and by the time they get to it, it's enough to prejudice them a bit. They're human, after all. A simple, easy to follow story by a reasonable and pleasant person who has made every effort to do the right thing is much more convincing than being beaten over the head with your amazing logic and argument.

When your hearing comes, go in and tell the relevant story. It would be helpful if you give them the information that you worked for this company for so many years, that you team drove with your wife, as per your hiring agreement. you were being paid **************....

Then go into how the company fell on hard times. How the loads became less and less as the economy perished. I'd leave out how you were forced to stay in Georgia and all because you did accept these work conditions, you did get paid for these weeks. Completely skip how hard this was for you and what kind of life this is. You were paid for it, you accepted it.

Incidentally, for any week you received no pay at all, you could have filed for unemployment benefits while still working. This is partial unemployment, available when you are working all the hours the company has for you and you are making less a week than you would make on unemployment (even in Georgia!).
Avoid the exclamation points, any ploy for sympathy about how hard you were being forced to work, etc etc. About how hard you tried to be good, how terrible your conditions were.....

Then tell about how, in the last few months of your employment, the company lost so much work that they took away.....and list the things they had formerly paid for, but took away. BE SURE you tell how you tried to work things out with the employer, how you kept trying to negotiate an improvement and were told you had no option but to quit.

DO NOT just present this letter. It does not answer what we really need to know. It does not stick to the pertinent facts. Tell your story, quietly, professionally, and BRIEFLY. In fact, there are about four questions you must answer on a voluntary quit. They are: Why did you quit your job? What were the conditions when you were hired? How did the conditions change? What did you do to attempt to resolve this situation before quitting your job? What was said on the last day that you worked?

Now, at this point, I'd very quietly state into evidence that you and your wife both submitted your claims, and that her claim was approved and has not been appealed by the employer. Do not make any further comments about this information.

I am suspecting rather strongly that if you asked for an in-person hearing, the employer will not show up. This company is very obviously in trouble, and this would have been a lack of work claim if they had not refused to give it to you.

In your hearing, answer only these questions. Be brief. Be professional. Do not be wordy. Do not be flowery. DO NOT quote unemployment law. And above all, do not hit them with a formal letter to enter into evidence. What if they have a question that is not in the letter? What if they don't want to read all this bull.....? You cannot file an appeal by simply sending in a good sounding (to you) letter. You must have a hearing, state your case, and let the decision be made by the appeals officer. This will not be the same person who made your initial decision to deny benefits.

Keep certifying. If your wife's appeal date has already passed, you are out of the woods on her, as the employer is not going to contest her leaving. But you will be back paid for everything you have filed for if you win this hearing.
When is your hearing, incidentally? You certainly have a winnable denial here, but you must cut out a whole lot of your argument and simplify. Don't get mad at the system. Get what you need and want from it by working it right.

 

[cehaney]

Wow....

Thank you... I understand, what you need me to do!

All the info + the extra long winded plea for justice went with the appeal request! So, to late for that to be held back. I will not persue the conflicting determination. My claim should stand on it's own, as my wifes did! Sorry, an in person hearing is not an option, as we are out of state. I will make bullet points...(based on your key issues) Keep it brief, facts only and casually mention my wifes claim as a matter of reference only.

As for the date , I have not heard yet. I will keep you posted.

I can't thank you enough... you most certainly went over and behond.

Just a little side note I did not mention. Both my wifes interview and mine were done over the phone. My wife asked the interviewer if I could speak on her behalf, the interviewer agreed which means I pitched the exact same verbal arguments for both of us..... odd, maybe my inflection was different from one day to the next!

Again, thank you!

 

[commentator]

Yes, since ajudicators are human and initial decisions are to some extent subjective, this situation that happened to you and your wife is not all that uncommon. But at the same time, it should be worked out reasonably. A lot of new ajudicators have been put "on the ground" so to speak in most states that have high unemployment rates. Sometimes really bad decisions are made, not in harmony with the unemployment laws at all.

That is why we have hearings, and boards of review to look at the decisions after they are made. If you are doing this hearing out of state, you will be working with the interstate appeals unit to do the hearing. They are usually pretty good and experienced at their jobs.

As for the letter you sent in, if you could do it by letter, they'd call it a "writing" not a hearing. But request to speak anyhow, and try to get to present your verbal evidence instead of only having the letter read into evidence. There's definitely too much extraneous detail here.


A person who quits their job must prove that they had a good job related reason to quit the job, that they tried to resolve the problem before they quit, and that they did not want to lose the job, that circumstances were such that they were forced to do so.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.