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Is this insubordination or something else?

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Phantom Zephyr

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New Mexico

Is this "insubordination"?
I was asked to do an individual development plan as the result of an internal interview by a district manager in which she asked "What would your manager say about your performance?" My response "I do not know, I would like to know" The district managers response "I want you and your manager to do an IDP" This also initiated a call to other managers to do the same
Three days after the interview, I had expressed concerns to the District Manager regarding the cash funds at the store. Some deposit maneuvering occurred as a result that recharged "some" of the store cash funds

A single soft deadline ("by the end of month") was given for completion of the IDP's to all managers in a group coaching session. No documented directives given. No written warnings. Soft deadline came and went. None of the managers submitted IDP's. The store manager ignored repeated requests for interacting and request for guidance on the action. Each manager submitted IDP's late but on the same day after the store manager called to say he had been called on it by the District Manager. I was fired, they were not. Retaliation? Can I fight this? What about UI?
 


Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New Mexico

Is this "insubordination"?
I was asked to do an individual development plan as the result of an internal interview by a district manager in which she asked "What would your manager say about your performance?" My response "I do not know, I would like to know" The district managers response "I want you and your manager to do an IDP" This also initiated a call to other managers to do the same
Three days after the interview, I had expressed concerns to the District Manager regarding the cash funds at the store. Some deposit maneuvering occurred as a result that recharged "some" of the store cash funds

A single soft deadline ("by the end of month") was given for completion of the IDP's to all managers in a group coaching session. No documented directives given. No written warnings. Soft deadline came and went. None of the managers submitted IDP's. The store manager ignored repeated requests for interacting and request for guidance on the action. Each manager submitted IDP's late but on the same day after the store manager called to say he had been called on it by the District Manager. I was fired, they were not. Retaliation? Can I fight this? What about UI?
Absent a binding CBA or employment contract, nothing improper occurred. Apply for UI.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
You should apply for UI. The worst thing that can happen is you will be turned down (you can appeal that).
As long as you worked long enough, didn't quit on your own, and weren't fired for some misconduct, you should qualify..

I don't see how it's insubordination. Insubordination means you fail to comply with properly given instructions by a supervisor.
Retaliation? Perhaps, but internal whistleblowing in private industry isn't typically protected by law. They're free to fire you. You're free to complain up the chain of command if you think your boss operated improperly in firing you but there's no likely legal recourse, they don't have to have a reason to fire you.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
As I said to someone else earlier this week, retaliation is one of the current buzz words that everyone likes to throw around but what does not mean what most people think it means. Unless you engaged in or applied for an activity or benefit that is protected under the law, it is not illegal to "retaliate" against you for it. Nothing you have posted suggests that illegal retaliation took place.

There is no legal definition of insubordination, and it really wouldn't matter if there were. I wouldn't call it insubordination but if your employer wants to, there isn't any law that's going to tell him he can't.

While no one but the UI commission of your state can carve anything in stone, I'm not seeing any bar to your receiving UI.
 

Phantom Zephyr

Junior Member
Thanks for the feedback All.
No, as a responsible manager with a solid track record of supervisory function, the concept that this is insubordination to me is outrageous when...
1. Individual Development Plans are professionally accepted as an action that involves supervisory coaching and feedback with the subordinate and there was clearly failure on the part of my manager to embrace such let alone act in their capacity to direct activities of work time toward such a goal.
2. The entire process was born out of a spirit with clear attachment to the needed process of interaction which was of no fault of mine.
3. In light of the fact that none of the managers acted initially...all for the same reason I will add and partly due to the fact that the store manager has been absent from the store 80-100% of the time during this whole saga while juggling management of three stores (two outside the area) is an important point that HR seems to be ignoring.

It's truly sad, if ultimately valid that, there is no protection for ethics in this matter....especially since book keeping would be a matter of legal tax implications.
Essentially you are saying that in the private sector there is no protection for ethical behavior even in a circumstance of illegal misconduct? Seriously???
Wow, how far we have fallen.

As far as retaliation...well, be your explanation as it may, there has been a major debacle from the beginning as I was denied the typical training course and there has been resistance from store manager to district manager to HR to come up with anything in lieu of training I was denied so, there is a history of my standing up for rights as well as my report of ethical concerns.

I can say this also...I have never experienced any comments that would refer to my age. I am however the oldest employee at the store (50) and many of the associates under my direction have indicated that there is a palpable "ganging up" and negative culture that they feel is the result of others feeling professionally "threatened" given my extensive background. I suspect I actually receive a higher wage than the other same level managers despite the fact they have been with the company longer. One person with Unemployment that I was sharing the circumstance with asked me if I was older than others. I sort of dismissed it saying that I have never experienced any age bias but then she stated "Age bias is the hardest to identify as there are not really any cultural slurs for it, there is typically no facial reaction, no put downs because really since the issue is that an older more experienced worker essentially has "more" to offer which causes them to be perceived of as a threat.

I am pursuing this with the company resolution process but, HR is taking a bullying stance in the last conversation. I seriously, short of the store manager being let go, do not wish to go back there....it would be worse than before by far.
My primary concern outside of UI is the mark this will leave on things for future employment...I have never been fired, it is a small community and though I know many of the business customers see me as an excellent individual, I fear slander from the store manager will damage my employment potential.
Any comments on how to work around that and legal rights?
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Thanks for the feedback All.
No, as a responsible manager with a solid track record of supervisory function, the concept that this is insubordination to me is outrageous when...
1. Individual Development Plans are professionally accepted as an action that involves supervisory coaching and feedback with the subordinate and there was clearly failure on the part of my manager to embrace such let alone act in their capacity to direct activities of work time toward such a goal.
2. The entire process was born out of a spirit with clear attachment to the needed process of interaction which was of no fault of mine.
3. In light of the fact that none of the managers acted initially...all for the same reason I will add and partly due to the fact that the store manager has been absent from the store 80-100% of the time during this whole saga while juggling management of three stores (two outside the area) is an important point that HR seems to be ignoring.

It's truly sad, if ultimately valid that, there is no protection for ethics in this matter....especially since book keeping would be a matter of legal tax implications.
Essentially you are saying that in the private sector there is no protection for ethical behavior even in a circumstance of illegal misconduct? Seriously???
Wow, how far we have fallen.

As far as retaliation...well, be your explanation as it may, there has been a major debacle from the beginning as I was denied the typical training course and there has been resistance from store manager to district manager to HR to come up with anything in lieu of training I was denied so, there is a history of my standing up for rights as well as my report of ethical concerns.

I can say this also...I have never experienced any comments that would refer to my age. I am however the oldest employee at the store (50) and many of the associates under my direction have indicated that there is a palpable "ganging up" and negative culture that they feel is the result of others feeling professionally "threatened" given my extensive background. I suspect I actually receive a higher wage than the other same level managers despite the fact they have been with the company longer. One person with Unemployment that I was sharing the circumstance with asked me if I was older than others. I sort of dismissed it saying that I have never experienced any age bias but then she stated "Age bias is the hardest to identify as there are not really any cultural slurs for it, there is typically no facial reaction, no put downs because really since the issue is that an older more experienced worker essentially has "more" to offer which causes them to be perceived of as a threat.

I am pursuing this with the company resolution process but, HR is taking a bullying stance in the last conversation. I seriously, short of the store manager being let go, do not wish to go back there....it would be worse than before by far.
My primary concern outside of UI is the mark this will leave on things for future employment...I have never been fired, it is a small community and though I know many of the business customers see me as an excellent individual, I fear slander from the store manager will damage my employment potential.
Any comments on how to work around that and legal rights?
Legally speaking: You can't "do" anything about something that hasn't occurred. The fact of the matter is that you were let go. Your employment was terminated by your employer. If your employer slanders you, then you can seek redress. However, based on your lack of understanding of legal concepts, I suspect that your idea of "slander" is much different from reality. That is not meant to be "snarky" - I'm simply pointing it out.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
I was denied the typical training course and there has been resistance from store manager to district manager to HR to come up with anything in lieu of training I was denied so, there is a history of my standing up for rights as well as my report of ethical concerns.

Training is not a right under the law. Therefore, even if you had a signed and notarized statement from the CEO stating that the sole reason you were terminated was to retaliate against you for demanding training, the best it would do for you is make it easier to get unemployment. Which is not likely to be denied anyway.
 

commentator

Senior Member
What the unemployment person said about age discrimination is very true. It's hard to show, hard to prove, and may have been a factor but you still have no appeal and no case other than you will be pretty likely, as things sound here, to be approved. As to "how far we have fallen" there has never ever been any law against firing employees, for any reason, at any time, unless it could be shown there was an EEOC related issue such as age, sex, religious affiliation, etc. And it would be impossible to show this in your case as you've described it. So yes, they could fire you and are under no obligation to reinstate you or train you or not treat you differently than they treat the other employees or managers or anyone else. There is no required "fairness" or labor board or anyone who will come to your defense.

Getting approved for unemployment benefits is your only avenue of recourse. What they are looking for is are you out of work through no fault of your own. If an employer fires you, they must show they had a valid, work related reason to fire you. That you were given feedback and warnings that your performance was not acceptable, that you knew that what you were doing might result in your being terminated, yet you persisted in that course of action or behavior. (Providing of course that there is no gross misconduct involved, that stuff that you might do, such as stealing, that would be wrong even if they had never given you any warnings.)

But do go on and follow through with your unemployment. They may very well appeal if you are approved on the initial decision, and in that case you will have a hearing. If you are denied benefits initially you have the same right to appeal and have a hearing. But once the issue of your termination has been hashed through the unemployment system, particularly if you are approved for benefits, it will very likely be that your company will not be going around telling anyone or anybody that you have been fired for doing this awful thing or that awful thing. And nothing that happens in the unemployment system will be public information. It is very confidential.

In other words, after you've worked for this company, been terminated, for whatever reason, and are applying for other jobs, it will be what it is. You worked there for xxxx amount of time. Your job title was xxxxx. You left, due to a disagreement with them, or due to an issue with something...whatever you say, you don't have to blurt out "FIRED" as the first thing you put down. And while they are very unlikely to go into a bunch of negative information about why they terminated your employment, they can very legally say you were terminated. Remember, they wouldn't have let you work there as long as you did if you had been a really awful employee.

Instead of spending a whole lot of time rambling around concentrating on the past and seeking some sort of justification or revenge for the reason you have been treated so badly, get your unemployment going and move on. Find another job and put them behind you.
 

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