A Little Confused

[gracenotes]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

Hello, I was terminated from a professional position with a major health care company. I am over age 55, the reason was 'poor performance' (a first ever for me!), and I was there five months. I received formal training for my position of almost a month (although formal training does not usually translate into real-work scenarios and everyone struggles), and, after less than three months (approximately four weeks of actual work), also received a 30-day written warning. I worked very hard to improve and my scores were to be evaluated on the 30th. Had meeting with manager on the 24th, where I talked about meeting some objectives but she was not happy with performance, and was terminated next day. I wonder if I will ever find a f/t position with good pay/benefits ever again, especially with termination on my record. I have been engaging in sending emails to manager, HR rep, and manager's boss outlining justification as to why I should get my job back, with no response. I have applied for Unemployment Insurance benefits.

Questions:
(1) When I was terminated, the HR rep stated that I was on 'will rehire' status. HR rep thought I had a great work background and this was more of a 'poor fit' situation. While this makes me happy, I cannot understand why anyone would hire me in a different position with the flag of 'poor performance.' Is this some kind of ploy with HR, or would there be a chance I could be rehired in another position?
(2) Is there anything I can do to get rehired in my previous position? Is it wrong to send emails? Should I call?
(3) Could a lawyer help me get my job back?

 

[Betty]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

Hello, I was terminated from a professional position with a major health care company. I am over age 55, the reason was 'poor performance' (a first ever for me!), and I was there five months. I received formal training for my position of almost a month (although formal training does not usually translate into real-work scenarios and everyone struggles), and, after less than three months (approximately four weeks of actual work), also received a 30-day written warning. I worked very hard to improve and my scores were to be evaluated on the 30th. Had meeting with manager on the 24th, where I talked about meeting some objectives but she was not happy with performance, and was terminated next day. I wonder if I will ever find a f/t position with good pay/benefits ever again, especially with termination on my record. I have been engaging in sending emails to manager, HR rep, and manager's boss outlining justification as to why I should get my job back, with no response. I have applied for Unemployment Insurance benefits.

Questions:
(1) When I was terminated, the HR rep stated that I was on 'will rehire' status. HR rep thought I had a great work background and this was more of a 'poor fit' situation. While this makes me happy, I cannot understand why anyone would hire me in a different position with the flag of 'poor performance.' Is this some kind of ploy with HR, or would there be a chance I could be rehired in another position?
(2) Is there anything I can do to get rehired in my previous position? Is it wrong to send emails? Should I call?
(3) Could a lawyer help me get my job back?

1. We don't know the HR rep but there is always a chance you might be rehired in a different position. Sometimes employees are just not a good fit for certain positions/jobs.

2. Your employer does not have to hire you back into your original position or any position. In at-will employment you can be terminated at any time for any reason except a reason prohibited by law (ie age (40 & over federal & Ca.), religion, gender....) or unless you have a binding employment contract to the contrary. Just because you are over 40 (you noted you are 55+) does not mean you were terminated due to your age. You were only there 5 mos. so you were hired around age 55+.

3. I don't know how a lawyer could help since I see no wrongful termination. What reason prohibited by law do you believe you were terminated for to make this a wrongful termination?

Many employees get good full time jobs with benefits after being terminated.

You applied for UI which is good. Generally poor performance or not a good fit for the position would not keep you from getting UI. The state will decide if you qualify or not after a review of all information including whether you qualify financially.

 

[jiggy78]

Don't worry about your "record". Simply don't list this job on your resume if you don't wish to discuss it.

And I wouldn't expect a reply from any of your emails, except one asking that you stop sending them.

 

[gracenotes]

Thank you, Betty. Your responses are very helpful. What you said about possibly being rehired into another position at this very large company is basically what the HR Rep stated, as well as the rep stating that this was mostly about the job not being a good fit. After doing more homework, there really is no need for an attorney. I should be able to collect Unemployment benefits and find a new position within a few months.

 

[gracenotes]

And, yes, thanks, Jiggy, I do not have to list the job, and am done sending emails.

 

[cbg]

While it's certainly up to you whether to list the job or not, you are going to need to be prepared with an answer as to what you were doing during that five months because you WILL be asked, and that answer needs to have at least a germ of truth in it because if it does not, and the new employer ever finds out (which is much, much easier than you might think) they can call an untruthful answer "falsification of your application" and fire you for it.

 

[gracenotes]

cbg, yes, I have thought about this, and have already, more or less, prepared an answer. I really do plan on listing this job because I received so much training on the job, not only in the area where I was originally hired, but also in a new-to-me area that I am very interested in pursuing for job opportunities. I have already verified that the company only gives out dates of employment and verifies I worked there. I also had excellent rapport with two coworkers, one is a friend who I get together with regularly anyway, both who I can call on for references.

 

[gracenotes]

First Job Interview

I had my first phone job interview with a recruiter post termination. I do not recall ever having to do an interview after being terminated.

I found the interview so difficult. The reason they gave for my termination was: poor performance, and will rehire. Seems to me that talking about poor performance is the worst case scenario. So, I tried to come up with an alternate explanation. And, I do not believe poor performance was the real reason anyway.

The truth, in my opinion, was that the manager was just out to get me, for unknown reasons, and that the 30 day written warning was just a formality, and, no matter what I did, I would have been terminated anyway. The geographic area where I was doing my work was being phased out anyway by the end of the year. My former coworkers are probably easily covering my work. Seriously, my friends state it was a waste of time for me to do extra work, improve my scores (because manager would find a way to make them a failing score anyway), - which the manager did anyway- just as manager fired me just as my production went substantially up, before I could document it, (so there would be no possibility of me proving myself). This might be the truth, then it might not. Why cannot something like this be a legal issue, anyway??? It is so emotionally wrenching. I am having such a difficult time 'getting over' this. Some of these friends also insisted I should not even put the job on my resume. I explained to them that the training I received on the job was what got my foot in the door for the interview today.

So, I came up with an explanation for termination along the lines of I usually get along with my bosses, but this was an exception, and talking about all the wonderful training that occurred, and how it was stated I was not a good fit, and can be rehired at the company. Somehow the recruiter pushed through to try to identify performance issues. I said that might be part of it, but I was told it was not a good fit, but I had not yet received anything in writing about this yet.

I truly liked this job, this was going to be my last job until retirement which is 6 or 7 years away, I like my coworkers, they liked me, there was a future, the pay and benefits were great, and despite my good efforts, how difficult it is to try to do an interview. I am in such grief losing this job and feel so violated. It just too bad things like this cannot be an legal issue.

I sure would like to hear some examples of people who bounced back from job termination and found the right job or some advice on how to do better on the next interview.

 

[commentator]

When one works with unemployment insurance as long as I did, one has seen literally thousands and thousands of people who have been terminated from their job for various reasons. While it may feel very traumatic, there is life at the end of it, and you must think about it in several different ways.

One thing I don't think you are considering is that when a person is "laid off" through no fault of their own, because the company was down sizing or closing out an area or something, that person is automatically eligible for unemployment insurance, and eventually this will cause the employers tax rate to rise and their costs to go up. So as a petty savings, some employers think it is smart to find a cause to terminate every single employee they need to get rid of.

They are not in business to give you a positive, or even an honest evaluation of your work and to give you a good experience, or a fair shake. They are in business to make profits for themselves, and are trying to use employees to their advantage in every way possible. If they fire everyone, some of them may just go out and get another job without filing for unemployment. Some of them may be so intimidated they don't try to file for unemployment. Some of them may actually be determined to be "for valid misconduct cause" terminations and the person doesn't get to draw benefits.

Many employers put their employees in the position where no matter what excellent work they do, the employer is never going to be satisfied. They are asking their employees to "spin straw into gold." In other words, to do something that would be impossible under any circumstances, which is to please them when they refuse to be pleased.

Since they set the bar, they can easily set it to the level that you won't be able to jump over it. If you were getting positive feedback most of the time while you were there, and then were suddenly fired for poor performance, there's nothing you could have been doing except trying to do your best. As long as you were honestly doing your best, you just have to not internalize their negative feedback.

When you are interviewing, it is not necessary to be brutally honest about everything. (I once saw a poor lady who had been terminated with absolutely no evidence, after many years of good performance, because her company was getting rid of the older, higher paid workers. She was going around town writing, "Fired, accused of stealing" on all her applications in the name of telling the truth, though the company had absolutely no evidence of what they had accused her of and she had been approved for unemployment benefits)

You will not be lying if you say that your last position ended after five months...that you were very suprised, you were enjoying the job and learning much...such as the specialized training i had on****************************.but you suspect they were about to downsize their operation and were eliminating some positions. They decided you were one of the people they were getting rid of. You may mention that they told you you were in a "would rehire" status.

And you will move on. Whatever you do, do not dwell on this experience, or express your bitterness to the next interviewer or provide too much detail about this one small part of your employment history. True, it's a disappointment when your plans for your employment do not go to suit you, but there is no inherent legal right to what you want to happen being what happens. Remember, most people honestly believe that they have a lot more rights and protections on the job than they do until something happens to them personally.

An interviewer is trying to pick up on many things when they are talking to you. One of those things is your resilience, flexibility, your tendencies to hold grudges, your tendencies to whine, or take offense, or to dwell on past bad circumstances. Things that will or will not make you a good employee for others to be around. All those non verbals can easily spill out when you feel you've had a bad break.

"How will I ever get another job...?" you ask. You will, and thousands of people who've been fired unjustly have before you. I first got fired from a job in my twenties, and now I look back and laugh at my "greenness." I was so dumb I guess I thought I must just go home and starve because these rotten people thought I didn't measure up somehow. I didn't even file for unemployment, which, believe it or not, is an important part of moving on. I compare it now to having the the funeral after a death.

Filing for unemployment benefits, when your employer has tried to fire you and claim they had cause and keep you from getting them, and being approved for the benefits, and backpaid for the weeks you have actually been out of work before you find that next job is a tremendously affirming and uplifting feeling after being dumped on your butt by an ungrateful company. Whether you desperately need to get the money or not, you will like hearing that you are out of work through no fault of your own if your claim is approved.

Through out the whole unemployment process, stress that you always did your job to the best of your abilities, which is something you can truly say. You are able to tell them you did not have any indications that you were about to be fired or that your performance was not what they wanted, or you would've tried to do more. But since you were doing your best, it was all you could do. And now, you're ready to move on. Good luck to you.

 

[gracenotes]

Thank you so much, Commentator.

I made the point yesterday to get past a lot of negativity, and arrived at many of the conclusions you mentioned because you are speaking the truth. Even though I tended to 'beat myself up' after the interview, all in all it was a positive interview, and I sent a very positive thank you email yesterday. It is beyond my control now. Also, in the past few days, I have stopped internalizing the manager's negativity. I reviewed all her scores and realized there were so many errors, that if they were done correctly, I would have met the metrics anyway. There really were no performance issues anyway. In fact, my former employer would not give out this information if they were called. I did my best! I even worked extra hours practically every day. My manager, unfortunately, because of her personality, has other employees are afraid to speak up about much of anything, and is clueless how lacking training was and how much they struggle every day to figure things out on their own, just as I did.

One thing that occurred to me yesterday is that I need to mention that the counties that I was assigned to are 'going away' as of the beginning of next year, and referrals were historically low. It could be framed as a form of downsizing.

My unemployment interview is early next week, and I am confident that I can do well on this, mainly because I think I can be more truthful about what really happened. And sometimes unemployment can be a grand opportunity to reevaluate what is most important in life, and possibly move in another direction.

I hope your post will also be helpful to all those struggling with termination. It certainly it to me!

 

[commentator]

One quick word of advice. When you are in your unemployment hearing, DO NOT overcome the system with too much information. Just the basic facts, okay? Describe exactly what you were told when you were terminated. Stress that felt you were inadequately trained and perhaps could have done better if you had been given more help. But always repeat that you did the job to the very best of your abilities, that you were trying as hard as you could to meet every standard.

The way they look at itin unemployment law, you can control your behavior. But if you were showing up every day and doing your best, and your best was not good enough for them, making a sincere good faith effort to do your job well,you can't help not being talented enough, or fast enough or well trained enough. Employers do not realized it, but performance issues is a very hard situation in which to prove misconduct. They have to show that the employee had the capability to do the job as they wanted, had been doing it as they wanted it done, and then, at some point, deliberately chose to start screwing up, slowing down, sleeping under their desk or playing on the internet all day instead of doing their job. Just being too slow, or making too many errors isn't really misconduct.

Don't go into too many extraneous things. Listen carefully to the questions you may be asked, and restrict the information you give them to "I always did my best and tried to do the job to the best of my abilities. They told me my performance did not meet their requirements." You might also mention how you had been told by co workers that they were thinking or it appears they were letting the area that you were assigned go, or that it was slow. No need to talk about what a wonderful work record you had before them, or how your supervisor did not relate well to the employees, etc.

Let us know how it works out.

 

[gracenotes]

Thank you, great information, I will do all of this.

In truth, I not only worked all day, I also worked an extra hour or so every day. Work was an obsession for over three weeks because I wanted to keep this job. I know I did my best job, and I have a whole email trail documenting that I did work very hard. I also have a whole email trail of how the manager was working against me and seeming to want to make my scores lower than they should have been. I think I will do fine.

 

[commentator]

Thank you, great information, I will do all of this.

In truth, I not only worked all day, I also worked an extra hour or so every day. Work was an obsession for over three weeks because I wanted to keep this job. I know I did my best job, and I have a whole email trail documenting that I did work very hard. I also have a whole email trail of how the manager was working against me and seeming to want to make my scores lower than they should have been. I think I will do fine.

EEEeeeek! DO NOT mention this in your unemployment hearing. DO NOT ever tell an interviewer this in a job interview. For goodness sake, working unauthorized overtime is very legitimate grounds for termination! It shows you were not obeying the rules, that you were obsessive, and makes you sound like kind of a nut. NEVER work unauthorized overtime, and never mention that you did this in an unemployment hearing. It makes you sound like you were not following the rules. If you had later filed a claim for it, the employer would have been required to pay you for that extra time. If you had been hurt or something else had happened during that time you were working over, you'd have been able to sue the employer. Many employers have strict policies against this.

Forget the "email trail." You do not need to present all this detailed information about how hard you were working or how your employer was against you. Just state the facts succinctly and clearly. Do not mention all the stuff, or present passed out copies of all these emails. Do not grind the axe of how your nasty supervisor just did not like you and was working against you. They don't want to have to go into this. Just want to see if they had a legitimate excuse to fire you for poor performance. They didn't. Perception is a big part of this. Be perceived as professional, dedicated, but NOT obsessive and nutty. Be brief, be bright, and be gone.

 

[gracenotes]

Whoah! Thanks, but just need to mention I was an exempt employee and this was a salaried position. Working extra hours was the norm in this position. I just put in a little extra time each day, as did my coworkers.

 

[commentator]

Even so, keep it simple. Don't mention all the extra hours. Just emphasize "I always did my job to the best o my abilities." Good luck.