• FreeAdvice has a new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, effective May 25, 2018.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our Terms of Service and use of cookies.

Post-offer medical exam

Accident - Bankruptcy - Criminal Law / DUI - Business - Consumer - Employment - Family - Immigration - Real Estate - Tax - Traffic - Wills   Please click a topic or scroll down for more.

frayed_knot

Junior Member
What is the name of your state? Michigan

Quick and dirty:

I got a conditional offer. Passed all tests - physical, background, etc. Told okay to start. Manager refused to allow me to start when I revealed I have chronic depression and participate in voluntary state monitoring.

On Wednesday, nurse recruiter calls and says I need to report for a "follow-up" physical exam.

I went yesterday. The exam was a substance abuse and psychiatric evaluation. I was caught off-guard by the substance abuse part since I passed the first drug test and have no hx of drug or etoh abuse. I was required to give another urine sample for a 10 panel test, a blood sample for drugs of abuse and another blood sample for blood alcohol level. The physician then conducted a physical exam to determine if I was under the influence - (much like police do to people suspected of DUI), checked me over for needle marks, etc.

As far as I know, this "follow-up" exam is not required of any other candidate, disabled or not, but I don't know if the exam would be considered discriminatory or illegal. It certainly was humiliating. :(

Please advise.
 


seniorjudge

Senior Member
Manager refused to allow me to start when I revealed I have chronic depression and participate in voluntary state monitoring.


What is "voluntary state monitoring"?
 

frayed_knot

Junior Member
Michigan has a program for nurses with mental illness and/or substance abuse. I self-reported due to exacerbation of chronic depression and personal concerns about the quality of my work in July/August this year. There is voluntary and regulatory monitoring. Mine is voluntary.

I see my doctor and therapist as required. They send reports to the monitoring agency regarding my safety to practice. They have deemed that I am safe to practice but require continued monitoring to make sure I continue to be compliant with the treatment plan.

It's bothersome but I protect my license this way. When I do experience exacerbations of the illness, I sometimes become too incapacitated to realize the severity. I wouldn't want to endanger a patient because of poor concentration and I don't want to lose my license because I enjoy working in my profession.
 

frayed_knot

Junior Member
Does the lack of a response mean that no one knows the answer to my question or there is simply a general lack of interest in my predicament?

I've left 3 messages this week with an attorney whom I had previously consulted regarding another matter and he doesn't return my calls - and no, I didn't neglect to pay my bill. ;)
 

pattythorn

Junior Member
You are too trusting!

You are too trusting! Do you honestly believe that because you voluntarily did these requirements that you will get a job? You would have been better off not to tell anybody about your problems, let alone the State Board of Nursing! Now you are labeled!

I truly wish you the best of luck!
 
Last edited:

seniorjudge

Senior Member
frayed_knot said:
Does the lack of a response mean that no one knows the answer to my question or there is simply a general lack of interest in my predicament?

I've left 3 messages this week with an attorney whom I had previously consulted regarding another matter and he doesn't return my calls - and no, I didn't neglect to pay my bill. ;)
Everyone (I suspect) is being too polite.

So, let me tell you: I wouldn't want you near me.
 

frayed_knot

Junior Member
Wow. While I appreciate your honesty, that was very painful to read. I had no idea that there was still so much stigma attached to mental illness, especially one as common as depression. For now, I'll continue under the assumption that you weren't intentionally cruel.

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

So, leper factor aside, I am still uncertain whether the medical exam I endured was legal.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
frayed_knot said:
Wow. While I appreciate your honesty, that was very painful to read. I had no idea that there was still so much stigma attached to mental illness, especially one as common as depression. For now, I'll continue under the assumption that you weren't intentionally cruel.

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

So, leper factor aside, I am still uncertain whether the medical exam I endured was legal.
You speak as if the stigma is not justified. You, yourself, in your posts, stated

"When I do experience exacerbations of the illness, I sometimes become too incapacitated to realize the severity. I wouldn't want to endanger a patient because of poor concentration"

I'm not sure why you feel slighted by the posts. In a profession such as yours you are put in a position that could be lethal to somebody due to your condition. To infer stupidity as any posters reason for their post is simply absurd. Although depression can generally be controlled you above all others should understand the consequences if that control is lost and the possibilities that could arise. Maybe you should consider the Hippocratic oath "above all else...do no harm"
 

justalayman

Senior Member
BTW re: additional test

I would strongly suspect that not only are the tests legal but they were performed in response to the employers duty to protect their patients and possibility of their liability.
 

frayed_knot

Junior Member
So, let me tell you: I wouldn't want you near me.

You really don't understand why someone might be offended by such a statement?

I asked for legal advice. I didn't ask to be insulted. Perhaps ignorance would have been a better choice than stupidity. Either way, the point of his post was clearly not to dispense legal advice but rather to express his prejudice against a person with a psychiatric illness.

I had the Hippocratic Oath in mind when I sought treatment for my illness and consented to monitoring. It never occurred to me that I should be forever barred from seeking employment in a field that I spent many years and many thousands of dollars preparing for.

"Suspicion" is not useful to me. Applicable case law, relevant excerpts from the ADA - that sort of thing would meet the minimum requirement, at least from my perspective, to qualify as legal advice.

You really do get what you pay for.
Thanks so much.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
frayed_knot said:
So, let me tell you: I wouldn't want you near me.

You really don't understand why someone might be offended by such a statement?

I asked for legal advice. I didn't ask to be insulted. Perhaps ignorance would have been a better choice than stupidity. Either way, the point of his post was clearly not to dispense legal advice but rather to express his prejudice against a person with a psychiatric illness.

I had the Hippocratic Oath in mind when I sought treatment for my illness and consented to monitoring. It never occurred to me that I should be forever barred from seeking employment in a field that I spent many years and many thousands of dollars preparing for.

"Suspicion" is not useful to me. Applicable case law, relevant excerpts from the ADA - that sort of thing would meet the minimum requirement, at least from my perspective, to qualify as legal advice.

You really do get what you pay for.
Thanks so much.
Ya and mine comes with a money back guarentee :D

By refusing to see the BIGGER picture you have shown yourself to actually not have an interst in the medical field to heal people but to find a big fat judgement from. Your true colors show through and I have a black and white monitor :eek:
 

frayed_knot

Junior Member
Free advice and mind-reading too?

I don't want a "big fat judgement".

I want to work. I'm interviewing for two other positions at the same company on Monday. I don't, however, want to be subjected to endless medical exams that other candidates for the same position are not.

I'm not pretending to be Mother Theresa here.

As I wrote before:

I had the Hippocratic Oath in mind when I sought treatment for my illness and consented to monitoring. It never occurred to me that I should be forever barred from seeking employment in a field that I spent many years and many thousands of dollars preparing for.

Would you recommend that everyone with a psych illness (and an expensive bachelor's degree) be relegated to emptying the trash at McDonald's?

Do you really have a black and white monitor?
 

outonbail

Senior Member
I see my doctor and therapist as required.
As required? Doesn’t fit the definition of voluntary.
I’m baffled that you would receive the honest replies to your post as being some sort of personal attack or indication that the person posting the reply holds some sort of prejudice towards individuals who suffer from a mental illness. You need to step back and view your situation from the outside looking in.
Would you feel comfortable being cared for by someone who has the potential to do you harm due to a pre-existing condition that can disrupt their concentration? There are constantly cases in the news of people who have had the wrong medication delivered to them or swapped with someone else’s, even cases of doctors operating on the wrong subject or wrong organ! In a hospital setting where you have so much going on in the way of trama, emergencies with many different physicians treating so many patients and staff changing shifts needing to be briefed on changes in treatment, births, deaths and all happening at the same time, often making for a state of chaos. Do you believe it is wise to add another potentially lethal element of uncertainty to this trying environment? Is employing staff, who must themselves “see a doctor and therapist as required” so they don’t become a threat to the safety and well-being of patients who’s health is already in compromise?
They have deemed that I am safe to practice but require continued monitoring to make sure I continue to be compliant with the treatment plan.
Now who’s responsibility does it become to ensure your in compliance? Should the Hospital assume your continuing your voluntary treatment, or do they have an obligation to keep tabs on your condition? If a situation were to arise due to a mistake or misjudgment on your part, who would be liable? Weather or not it was related to your illness, would the hospital be considered negligent for employing a nurse who they were aware has the potential to put patients at risk, due to a “lack of concentration”?
When I do experience exacerbations of the illness, I sometimes become too incapacitated to realize the severity.
So by your own admission, it can and does happen. In fact it happens without you realizing the severity!
There is a prerequisite for almost all professions. Regardless of weather someone has a mental health condition, a physical handicap or learning disability, or their too fat, short, tall etc., each group will not be suited for a career in certain areas. To suggest to a person born with no arms that they will never become a professional bowler isn’t prejudice or cruel, it’s a fact created by their handicap and one they have to accept. Do you think Stevie Wonder ever considered pursuing a career as an umpire with the American Baseball league?
When you informed the manager of your condition, they had the obligation to look into it and question your suitability for the job. Had they not required additional testing, I for one would have serious reservations about the hiring practices in the medical field. The cost of malpractice insurance has got to be one of the most expensive policies on earth. The ever rising cost of this necessary coverage is passed on to everyone who seeks medical treatment. What would the cost rise to if insurance companies discovered that a hospital staff was made up of people with pre-existing mental conditions which have the potential to cause patients harm, possibly even fatal results?
Quite frankly, I’m surprised that your suitability for the job didn’t arise sooner. Do they not ask questions concerning your own health on the paperwork and applications you fill out when seeking employment in the medical field?
Even the DMV asks all drivers applying for or renewing their drivers license if they have suffered seizures or black outs.
I wouldn't want to endanger a patient because of poor concentration and I don't want to lose my license because I enjoy working in my profession.
Then I suggest you enter another area of medicine, possibly one where you are not directly responsible for hands on treatment of patients. If you chose to continue seeking employment as a nurse working directly with patients, then you should be prepared to receive the same humiliating treatment as you have posted of here.

If I was hospitalized, I wouldn’t want anyone with your condition anywhere near me or my family members either. While this is not legal advise, it is a reality you need to be aware of. But by no means is it meant as a judgment of you, I’m only trying to put into prospective what you have posted.
 

frayed_knot

Junior Member
Quite frankly, I’m surprised that your suitability for the job didn’t arise sooner. Do they not ask questions concerning your own health on the paperwork and applications you fill out when seeking employment in the medical field?

While I appreciate the time and effort you must have taken to compose such a lengthy post, you are yet another person with no knowledge of employment law.

Every state board of nursing has provisions for monitoring nurses with psychiatric illness and even *gasp* substance abuse problems. Some cases are voluntary, some are regulatory. Even in voluntary cases, the nurse enters into an agreement with the board. That's where "requirement" fits in.

The fact that are afraid of a depressed nurse seems somewhat funny to me since there are thousands of other RNs (and policemen, firemen, airline pilots, attorneys, physicians, ad infinitum) out there practicing while they are high.

Then I suggest you enter another area of medicine, possibly one where you are not directly responsible for hands on treatment of patients. If you chose to continue seeking employment as a nurse working directly with patients, then you should be prepared to receive the same humiliating treatment as you have posted of here.

How very progressive.
Screw the ADA! These freaks need humiliation, darnit!

Note to self: Asking for free legal advice on the internet is not likely to be a productive endeavor, nor is trying to get an attorney on the phone the week before Christmas/Hanukkah.

Maybe I should apply to law school.

I'm done. While you're busy praying you won't ever get me as a nurse, I'm busy praying (or would be were I not an atheist) none of you are actually attorneys. :eek:
 

Find the Right Lawyer for Your Legal Issue!

Fast, Free, and Confidential
data-ad-format="auto">
Top