terminated for insubordination

[terminated]

california, I was fired for insubordination and not following instruction which I believe is false. basically stem from an argument with my supervisor, he wanted me to perform testing on a car that we never found any problems with before and it came back for same concern. since I performed test last vist and no problem found I did not get paid by manufacturer warranty. I let him know that and wanted assurnace the dealership would pay me to perform further test on the car this time, he said NO to my request for assurance pay. yet I never refused to perform the test (and eventually work on the car for free next 2 day then got fired) just want to make I got paid, he believed I was being insubordinate and I got fired. should I get a lawyer, from what I researched it not worth it since I am at will and they can fire me for any reason any time ( have been written up before small stuff, counseled about attitude cause I was overheard talking bad about a new rule implemation). I submit a unemployment claim and expect to go appeal, I believe I would win since they really have no real proof of gross misconduct. I plan to submit a letter to the car dealership owner and operation manager, should I also ask for district hr manger also? any help is greatly appreciated, every mechanic knows this boss is an idiot (1st time in position). thanks any help

 

[cbg]

Since you have already reached the conclusion that you are an at-will employee, would you explain please what your question is? Why would you hire a lawyer for a legal termination? What do you think all these letters you want to generate will do?

 

[terminated]

just curious if I had a case, even though sure I dont. I hope to show the dealership management that although technically legally fired it was very unfair and unjust as to what insubordination really constitutes. I hope to get this guy fired or at least investigated for this action, last manager (before he got fired) tried to fire him but higher ups said no, I hope to show them that he does not derserve to be in a position of authority, and also possible get my job back or cleared of wrong doing.

 

[terminated]

also this would be the 3rd time an employee sent a letter to management about this guy, so I am hoping mine would be the last straw and they just cant keep brushing away complaints about this guy.

 

[terminated]

so I guess my question is, is there a procedure to follow through human resources to get an appeal or investigation, asking for district manager etc? do I just send my letters with my version hoping they will do an investigation and basically leave it up to them and hope they do the right thing?

 

[cbg]

As far as the law is concerned, you do not have any kind of case except for unemployment benefits. You were not illegally terminated and you have no grounds to sue. The law does not care if it was fair; the law only cares if it was legal. It was.

There is no one-size-fits-all appeal process. Whether you can appeal the decision at all, and if so what the procedure would be, is company specific. You are free to contact HR and see what they say and how they say to go about it. Contacting anyone else would be, at least at this point, a waste of time.

 

[commentator]

If they have a trail of progressive discipline, in other words, if they gave you a verbal warning in the past for insubordination, then a written warning for insubordination, then fired you after this last incident, you are really not very likely to be approved for unemployment benefits. If you are argumentative and belligerant, and they have warned you and have tried to work with you about THIS ISSUE before, then you will not have a good case for receiving benefits.

But if you were written up for other things, such as tardiness, not performing safety checks, etc, then these write ups will have no effect on your unemployment claim. If you have no previous warnings or disciplines for insubordination, it is harder to say your behavior rises to the level of gross misconduct, which is what they would need to fire you on the first offense.
Unless, of course, you cursed him, told him he was an idiot, whacked him on the head with a wrench, or threw something at him; that's misconduct, even the first time.

 

[terminated]

I was written up for attitude because I was overheard (or narked on) in a private coversation commenting about how a new mechanic incentive program would not work because it was unattainable. I was never counseled on insubordination, I never cursed or refused to do the work, I just question who was going to pay me to do testing on the car if the manufacturer Warranty was not going to pay. He viewed it as insubordiation cause I question him and wanted assurance to get paid for work he was asking me to do. I believe I have a better then average chance for unemployement cause it doesn't seem like gross misconduct right?

 

[terminated]

I did all the test he required and asked me to do during the next 2 days after the initial argument about who was going to pay me. during that time the sob was processing the forms to get me fired and I never got paid for the work I did during those two days either. That alone should really help my case right? thanks for all the input and advice guys.

 

[eerelations]

Again, you don't have a case for wrongful dismissal. Your former boss would have had to fire you for an illegal reason for you to have a case for wrongful dismissal. Firing you for performing a test that he asked you to perform may be a stupid reason, but it's not an illegal reason. Ergo (one more time) you don't have a case for wrongful dismissal.

If your former employer hasn't paid you for all the time you've worked, then you might have a claim for unpaid wages. Contact the CA DLSE to find out.

 

[xylene]

california, I was fired for insubordination and not following instruction which I believe is false. basically stem from an argument with my supervisor, he wanted me to perform testing on a car that we never found any problems with before and it came back for same concern. since I performed test last vist and no problem found I did not get paid by manufacturer warranty. I let him know that and wanted assurnace the dealership would pay me to perform further test on the car this time, he said NO to my request for assurance pay. yet I never refused to perform the test (and eventually work on the car for free next 2 day then got fired) just want to make I got paid, he believed I was being insubordinate and I got fired. should I get a lawyer, from what I researched it not worth it since I am at will and they can fire me for any reason any time ( have been written up before small stuff, counseled about attitude cause I was overheard talking bad about a new rule implemation). I submit a unemployment claim and expect to go appeal, I believe I would win since they really have no real proof of gross misconduct. I plan to submit a letter to the car dealership owner and operation manager, should I also ask for district hr manger also? any help is greatly appreciated, every mechanic knows this boss is an idiot (1st time in position). thanks any help

Could you clarify a little more about how you were paid?

Were you paid hourly or salaried, or did you receive pay per job, or some combination of that?

If you were being ordered to do work for which you were entitled to compensation, did the work, and then were not compensated, you have a claim for those unpaid wages.

That does not change the lawful termination issue, but you deserve the money you earned, and being fired does not change that.

 

[commentator]

As you said, you've filed for unemployment insurance. You will soon be receiving an initial decision either approving or denying benefits. Then either party can request an appeal. There would then be a hearing, either in person or by telephone. At this hearing, you will make your argument that your insubordination did not rise to the level of misconduct. However,the fact that they have prior disciplinary issues with you about insubordination will hurt your chances. If you have a history, it does not have to be "major misconduct." If you have had no prior problems or issues with insubordination and you suddenly do something very aggressive, that's going to be major misconduct. But if you have had prior warnings, and they decide this last incident was the last straw, then they don't have to say it is major misconduct, just that it is the final act in a trail of incidents of insubordination.

Your strongest point in this is that they did not tell you at once you were fired, they waited until you had completed the work they wanted you to do, and then tried to go back and terminate you after you were no longer needed to do the work you were asking about. You can also emphasize that you had legitimate questions about how you were going to be paid for this work which needed to be resolved, and that you (as you expected you would have) did have problems being paid for doing this work.

When talking to the unemployment office representatives, and of course during any fact-findings or hearings, be very professional, do not be argumentative, and do not refer to your supervisor or the company in any but the most formal of terms. Because you do not want the decision makers to get the idea you might actually be someone who would frequently argue, mouth off to your supervisor or complain about the system, or they will think the employer has a better case. It's supposed to be totally unbiased, but with human beings, impressions do count.

 

[terminated]

I was written up for atitude cause I was overheard talking negatively about a new incentive program. thats is not the same as insubordination right? it may be related but in the context of why they wrote me up for atitude was because of hearsay/gossip? atitude is not the same as insburdination right?

I never refused or said no at any time, I just got in an argument about how and who would pay me for working on the car.

As mechanic it like comissioned employee, you get a car and the amount of work on the car performed, you then get paid for. Under warranty if no repair or problems are found then you dont get paid for the test/inspections/time spent. you can either get paid internally by the dealership or warranty goodwill sign off-which he refused both.

Since I had replaced a battery 5months prior for no start, it then came bad with a bad battery. Performed a week of testing on the car-no problem found therefore not paid and we release the car. Came back again for no start-since I spent a week last time, I wanted assurance I would not be testing and working for a week for free to find nothing wrong again. I asked for assurance I would get paid something this time in case we found nothing wrong again-he flatly said no and viewed that as insubordiantion.

 

[eerelations]

I was written up for atitude cause I was overheard talking negatively about a new incentive program. thats is not the same as insubordination right? it may be related but in the context of why they wrote me up for atitude was because of hearsay/gossip? atitude is not the same as insburdination right?

I never refused or said no at any time, I just got in an argument about how and who would pay me for working on the car.

As mechanic it like comissioned employee, you get a car and the amount of work on the car performed, you then get paid for. Under warranty if no repair or problems are found then you dont get paid for the test/inspections/time spent. you can either get paid internally by the dealership or warranty goodwill sign off-which he refused both.

Since I had replaced a battery 5months prior for no start, it then came bad with a bad battery. Performed a week of testing on the car-no problem found therefore not paid and we release the car. Came back again for no start-since I spent a week last time, I wanted assurance I would not be testing and working for a week for free to find nothing wrong again. I asked for assurance I would get paid something this time in case we found nothing wrong again-he flatly said no and viewed that as insubordiantion.

Okay, one more time - YOUR TERMINATION WAS NOT ILLEGAL!!!!! YOU THEREFORE DO NOT HAVE A CASE FOR WRONGFUL DISMISSAL!!!!! IF YOU THINK YOU'RE OWED MONEY, FILE A WAGE CLAIM WITH THE CA DLSE!!!!!

And that's it for now. If after this you still don't get it, go somewhere else and leave us to help people who actually pay attention to what we're saying.

 

[terminated]

whats your problem, thats has already been resolved. I know that and the conversation has moved onto unemployement insurnace and my possible appeal process.