Terminated For Questioning Legalities?

[MauiBumbye]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Hawaii

Aloha,

Apologies in advance for the length of this story.

Last week I was terminated in a fit of rage by the president of the non-profit I work for. I am an I.T. Manager and was directed to set up a e-commerce account for what we believed was a subsidiary of the non-profit in a foreign country. I had worked out the technical details, but needed a deposit account to complete process. I had no idea which account to use, so I went to accounting to ask them. We are without a controller (we have gone through four in the two years I have worked there, likely a red flag) and the accountant in charge had no idea about a foreign account. So we, together, decided to go to the Vice President/Board Treasurer to find out. During our discussion, we found out SHE had no idea about a deposit account. The accountant started questioning the legalities of what we were trying to do, when she suggested simply deposit into a U.S. account and sweep the funds daily to an account she would get info on later. The accountant asked that she contact the president, who was in the foreign country in question.

She emailed the president and within two hours he called me directly screaming "**** you. You don't ever go behind my back. You don't ever undermine me. I am the ****ing president. I am the ****ing executive director. **** you". Over and over. I had no idea what he really was talking about and he mentioned the email from the VP, which I had never seen. His rage was violent and disturbing. I finally asked him to stop cursing at me and asked him how he could expect me to effectively work under those conditions, that I was just trying to get the e-commerce account set up as he directed me to. He said "you don't work for me anymore, get out!" and hung up. I took that as being discharged. It was very disturbing and hateful, violent. So I went to HR told them I had been fired. They were incredulous, the VP contacted the president to tell him he was out of line and he fired her too (which he cannot do since she is a board member). HR cut my final checks, apologized and I turned in my keys, phone, etc and went on my way.

The accountant resigned under protest the next day when it was uncovered that the president was diverting funds from the non-profit in Hawaii to what turned out to be a completely different for-profit corporation owned solely by him in the foreign country. It was using the same name, but it was not the same company. There were no agreements in place to allow for loaning of funds or resources. He was doing all of this on his own. We have no idea if it was with or without board approval. It's a total mess.

Now, I have no idea what to do. The loss of income is going to be very hurtful to me. I need unemployment, but I was fired. But there is no cause. He just fired me in a fit of rage. My plans are to go through the unemployment inception process and see what happens. He did send me to emails trying to apologize, but I hear that he is telling everyone that I quit. So why apologize? I did not respond to him. There is no way I am going to go back to work for him. I have been in contact with HR who put it in writing they would not dispute my UE. But I think I have more here, perhaps a wrongful termination suit. This non-profit is nuts, going through employees like nothing I have seen before. And it's obvious by his reaction, something very shady is going on.

Any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[swalsh411]

So have you been offered your job back or not?

If yes, get your job back. If no, file for unemployment.

Your termination was not unlawful.

 

[MauiBumbye]

So have you been offered your job back or not?

If yes, get your job back. If no, file for unemployment.

Your termination was not unlawful.

Thanks for your reply. I have not been officially offered my job back. The only reason I thought the termination was unlawful was that it could be seen that by contacting the VP and uncovering legal issues that had the potential to be very damaging to the non-profit, it could be construed that I was a whistle blower. I was being asked to commit a potentially illegal act by participating in the commingling of finances of two completely different entities, in two different countries. At the very least it was unethical. Which is why the accountant quit. And why I was fired.

Not looking to sue, just want to know what my rights are.

 

[Beth3]

File for unemployment benefits right away and then see an employment law attorney. You may (and that's a big may) have some protections under Sarbanes-Oxley as an internal whistleblower since you intiated the questioning about this account the President wanted set up.

 

[MauiBumbye]

File for unemployment benefits right away and then see an employment law attorney. You may (and that's a big may) have some protections under Sarbanes-Oxley as an internal whistleblower since you intiated the questioning about this account the President wanted set up.

Thank you, Beth.

I have filed online for UE benefits and am going down to the office this morning to make sure I have complied with all requirements of UE.

I will follow up with an employment attorney, only if he tries to do something to either defame he (he is notorious for doing so) or if they try to get my benefits denied. Otherwise, I just want to move on. I believe I have 90 days after discharge to file some sort of legal motion. Hopefully this will all be resolved in the next 14 days.

Also was told that even though he now claims I quit (there was no witness to the conversation, just a phone call taken privately in my office, so we are in a "he said she said"), he resigned his position as executive director and president two days later. He sent two emails to me wanting to schedule a time to talk and apologize, I ignored them. Both of those actions, the resignation and apology, make him look very guilty. I have never been in any sort of trouble at this, or any other job, in my 24 year career. I have never been unemployed either. I have never just quit a job. I have an exemplary employment history. This is new territory for me. Ready to just move past it, but need unemployment to bridge the gap until I find another job.

 

[swalsh411]

If Beth is referring to section 1107 that only applies to employees providing truthful information to law enforcement which is not what happened here. But SOX is huge so there maybe some other internal whistleblower protection I am not aware of.

If your employer claims you were twice offered the opportunity to come in and talk about the possibility of getting your job back (which really, what else would an "appology" be?) and you refused that is going to hurt your chances of collecting unemployment. You must make reasonable efforts to pursue suitable work and it's going to look like you turned down a chance to get your job back.

 

[tranquility]

The OP is not a "whistleblower" by any definition I know. He:

I had worked out the technical details, but needed a deposit account to complete process. I had no idea which account to use, so I went to accounting to ask them.

There was no intent to right a wrong. That there was ANY information conveyed by him to another was a surprise to him. That that information created a situation where problems were suspected, is of no moment.

 

[MauiBumbye]

The OP is not a "whistleblower" by any definition I know. He:
There was no intent to right a wrong. That there was ANY information conveyed by him to another was a surprise to him. That that information created a situation where problems were suspected, is of no moment.

Thanks for all of the great insight. I guess I will see how this all plays out. I was terminated, forcefully and violently. The working environment is a meat grinder, I am the 39th person to have either been terminated, forced out or just plain quit in the last 24 months, in an office of 54 people. I know that if for whatever reason I was to return, there would be a mark on me. The UE folks today were like, "Oh yeah, THAT place". It has a reputation.

Again, thanks for the insight. Will let you know how it plays out, when it plays out.

 

[Beth3]

As I said, it is a big "may" whether SOX applied but that law is so massive that I thought it was worth the OP at least consulting with counsel about it.

 

[csi7]

You will do just fine with the unemployment case.

The president fired you over the telephone, was contacted by telephone, your final check was processed, you left.

When you are fired in such a violent manner, you could be reasonably assured that a future conversation would not be any better, and an apology after the incriminating information was revealed would not mean you would be offered your job back.

The fact is you were fired.

 

[commentator]

I am in agreement with csi, though many of my colleagues here feel that a person can be fired, and is still obligated to accept offers to rehire, or offers to come back to work at the job he has been fired from, I don't see it that way at all, and did not, according to unemployment law according to what I believe was the general interpretation back when I was making such decisions. This person was your employer. He was the representative of the agency. He fired you when he had the authority to do so. Too bad that he quit (or was terminated) after he fired you. If he is now gone, you of course have the option to return to work there if the job is offered to you again and you want to.

However, if you don't want to, the relationship was severed at the point when he officially, as the representative of this agency, fired you. It may have been to cover up his wrongdoing, and his wrongdoing was later discovered, and he was terminated or quit the job, and is no longer the employer. But even so, go on and file your claim for unemployment benefits. I'd say you have a pretty good chance of approval IF that's the route you choose to take.

It is a misconception that many people have that if they are fired, under any circumstances, they cannot get unemployment insurance. This is not true. If an employer fires you, they must show that they had a valid misconduct reason to terminate you. In the circumstances you describe, it will be very hard to show that you were not fired, as you said, in a fit of temper by a supervisor who was having a fit because his own malfeasance was about to be discovered.

Whatever you do, do not agree to say you quit. You did not quit. You did not have a choice in the matter of continued employment at the time you were told to leave.(what happened later, them firing the boss and offering you the job back is not an issue, it's all based on the day you were actually fired from the job.) When you file for your unemployment benefits, you describe exactly what the circumstances were on the day you were told to leave, that you were fired by the agency.

Be very sure, though that you want to draw unemployment benefits, which are finite, do not last very long, and are apt to be very much less than what you were being paid. You will also be required to look for work as directed by the workforce agency and report back to them with great regularity. There are many downsides to drawing unemployment as opposed to getting your old job back with the bad boss gone.

Also, be careful that even if you do retain or speak to an attorney, you do not involve or confuse the two issues of whether or not you are eligible to draw unemployment benefits and whether or not you have some other case related to whistle blowing.
The unemployment system will not be interested in what ever other laws or regulations are being violated by your former employer, they will only be interested in whether or not the company had a valid misconduct reason to terminate you when you were terminated.

Most non profits hate to pay unemployment benefits as they are only required to pay them in IF someone is approved to draw benefits, it is a literal "coming out of their pockets" issue, so they will really try to fight your unemployment, I suspect. The HR person giving you the free assurance that they will not contest your unemployment isn't necessarily binding. So if they gave you any kind of a letter stating that, it's nice, turn it in with your paperwork, but don't count on it to get you approved. There will be an appeals process, and I'd wager strongly that the agency, having now fired the boss who fired you will try awfully hard not to allow you to be approved without a struggle. Because it will definitely cost them, and they hate that, after all.

Are you sure, finding out how much your claim would set up for, and thinking about what else you may find to do, that you don't want the old job back?

 

[MauiBumbye]

Thank you for taking the time to provide some detailed thoughts.

Here is where we are at. I have filed for UE, it is my backup plan. It certainly is much less than what I was being paid. And I am well aware of the limitations of UE. I see it as a stop gap, I will supplement it with savings and work very hard to find new employment. Unfortunately, I live in the part of the country where good paying I.T. jobs are in short supply. But I have confidence and great skills. I believe everything will be ok.

In addition, I have been in contact with HR. There is now some gray area as to whether the person that fired me actually DID step down or was fired. The board is moving on that action slowly, with legal counsel, which is likely the right thing to do. My boss wants to meet me face to face to apologize, but refuses to own up to firing me. That is a deal breaker. It feels like a game. I have told HR that I would be open to discussion in regards to returning to my position if I was provided with a written apology from my boss acknowledging that he terminated me. That seems totally reasonable to me. I also told HR to let the board actions play out, and if the boss is no longer employed there I will come back regardless of an apology and we can start to heal the organization and move forward. Also, HR is being very careful on how they word my return. There is no offer of employment on the table. So, I can be honest in my unemployment claim that I did not refuse an offer of employment. Being ethical is important to me.

My firing is just the latest in a string of poor management decisions by my boss. I have gone through four controllers, four chief operating officers, three directors of retail, countless other support positions all in the last two years and all due to the mis management of the person in charge. Most of those people were reduced to putty by this guy before they quit or were ran out. This particular non-profit has very deep pockets, as it owns a very profitable for-profit business.

As for speaking or retaining an attorney, or proceeding with whistle blowing, I just don't want to go down that path. I don't want to create grief for those who are left there and litigation is never good for anyone but the attorney. I am really not asking for much here. Just an apology for being terminated in anger.

I know I will get UE. And if it somehow gets denied. I will appeal and have a hearing and present my case. And if I lose there, well, I did all I can. I will just move on. But right now I am just taking this day by day. Do I want to return to my previous employer? Not in the current environment. In the current environment, there is nothing to prevent from this happening again and the cycle will just continue.

Thanks again everyone.